CLUTCH SLIP HELP

[Can-Am Poogs]

Okay to start, I have read the related articles on this topic.

I have a 2012 Spyder RTS with 15,000 km. SM5

This morning started to notice clutch slip. It happens in all the gears from 4 down. Notice it in first when starting out clutch feels spongy. Notice it in 4th if I accelerate quickly or suddenly that it slips.

So I checked the clutch fluid, and it is black and gross.

Next I checked the oil and it was on the bottom of the dip.

Questions:

1) Should I be concerned with the state of the clutch oil?

2) On an SM5 will low engine oil level cause clutch slip?

3) Is it unusual to have clutch problems at this low mileage?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[billybovine]

Time to replace the o-ring in the clutch and fresh fluid. Hopefully it's not worse than that.

Oil at the bottom of the dipstick is not low when checked hot. It just means you need to add some oil. Low oil level does not affect the operation of the clutch on a SM.

[BajaRon]

I would be concerned.

What oil are you using. How long has it been since your last oil change?

If you're not using the correct oil it will cause slippage pretty quickly.

If the oil is indeed black (and maybe it smells burnt) I would definitely change oil and filter and be sure to put the correct oil back in. If it is the oil, and if you have not spun the clutch disks too much the problem should go away.

Hopefully it isn't any more serious than this.

[Can-Am Poogs]

I would be concerned.

What oil are you using. How long has it been since your last oil change?

If you're not using the correct oil it will cause slippage pretty quickly.

If the oil is indeed black (and maybe it smells burnt) I would definitely change oil and filters and be sure to put the correct oil back in. If it is the oil, and if you have not spun the clutch disks too much the problem should go away.

Hopefully it isn't any more serious than this.

So even on a manual transmission oil level can have an effect on clutch operation? That's the big question I have. Clutch oil is black, engine oil is normal. I only use BRP oil for oil changes. It was at the bottom of the dip stick on a hot motor.

[billybovine]

I will repeat Ron's question. When was the last oil change? I don't see where he said low engine oil will make the clutch slip.

[Can-Am Poogs]

I will repeat Ron's question. When was the last oil change? I don't see where he said low engine oil will make the clutch slip.

The oil is due for a change in 800 km/h or around that. The bike sits at 14,200 km, will do oil change at 15,000 km.

The clutch fluid has never been changed.

[BajaRon]

I think we may be discussing 2 different things here which I did not catch first time around.

There is no 'Clutch' oil unless you're talking about the clutch master cylinder. That is a whole 'nother story, as they say.

Even if the clutch lever/hydraulic system was failing it would not cause slippage as all it does is release the clutch springs which allows the clutch to spin so you can shift or stop in gear.

The engine oil is the clutch oil and vise-versa.

Low oil in the reservoir will not affect clutch function unless it gets very low and then it will affect everything that gets lubricated by the oil system.

[SpyderAnn01]

He has a manual and I believe that he said that the clutch fluid (dot 4) is black and gross. Is it at the correct level? Check the maintenance schedule it will tell you when to replace clutch fluid

[Can-Am Poogs]

I think we may be discussing 2 different things here which I did not catch first time around.

There is no 'Clutch' oil unless you're talking about the clutch master cylinder. That is a whole 'nother story, as they say.

Even if the clutch lever/hydraulic system was failing it would not cause slippage as all it does is release the clutch springs which allows the clutch to spin so you can shift or stop in gear.

The engine oil is the clutch oil and vise-versa.

Low oil in the reservoir will not affect clutch function unless it gets very low and then it will affect everything that gets lubricated by the oil system.

Got you... thanks for clearing that up. The engine oil is fine. No funny smells. Nothing unusual about the color or texture for the the amount of km between oil changes. I only use brp oil since new. It was at the bottom of the stick, I have been lower and not had a problem. This only started today on my way back from looking at an rss for my wife. It literally acted up a couple blocks from home. So I bet I drove less than a mile after noticing the problem. Plan is to go back to dealer on Monday very gently to have it looked at. Was wondering if it is a common problem or anything preemptive I could do, or any advice anyone can give me. Also trying to get my knowledge base up before speaking to dealer about the issue.

[BajaRon]

Got you... thanks for clearing that up. The engine oil is fine. No funny smells. Nothing unusual about the color or texture for the the amount of km between oil changes. I only use brp oil since new. It was at the bottom of the stick, I have been lower and not had a problem. This only started today on my way back from looking at an rss for my wife. It literally acted up a couple blocks from home. So I bet I drove less than a mile after noticing the problem. Plan is to go back to dealer on Monday very gently to have it looked at. Was wondering if it is a common problem or anything preemptive I could do, or any advice anyone can give me. Also trying to get my knowledge base up before speaking to dealer about the issue.

If your clutch fluid is looking very bad it certainly needs to be changed regardless of what the manual says. It could possibly have water contamination which could possibly affect the master and or slave cylinders. If they are sticking that could be preventing the clutch from releasing completely which could give you slippage. I would think you might feel this in the clutch lever not working as normal.

A lot of maybes here but a place to start. If you're using the correct BRP oil then that would not be the problem.

It's even possible that you could have a collapsed or crushed hydraulic line which could give you slippage issues. But that seems unlikely.

[skeetshooter]

Check the micro switch behind clutch lever. My little switch arm broke off and wedge my lever and would make clutch slip.

[Chupaca]

agree with Ron on the hydraulic fluid. It would be wise to flush the system out and possibly replace the o-rings. The black comes from that and if the piston can not move smoothly it may not release the springs. If the oil smelles like burnt cork you should worry. But no smells is good....

[Can-Am Poogs]

If your clutch fluid is looking very bad it certainly needs to be changed regardless of what the manual says. It could possibly have water contamination which could possibly affect the master and or slave cylinders. If they are sticking that could be preventing the clutch from releasing completely which could give you slippage. I would think you might feel this in the clutch lever not working as normal.

A lot of maybes here but a place to start. If you're using the correct BRP oil then that would not be the problem.

It's even possible that you could have a collapsed or crushed hydraulic line which could give you slippage issues. But that seems unlikely.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I have a starting point. Clutch fluid doesn't look like brake fluids I am used to seeing on my other bikes. Sort of brownish with floaters in it. Still opaque but off colour. Rub the floaty bits between my fingers and smears like grease and disintegrates. Clutch leaver doesn't feel right. Definitely notice it in first gear when starting out. Very spongy. I will post an end result next week.


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[billybovine]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I have a starting point. Clutch fluid doesn't look like brake fluids I am used to seeing on my other bikes. Sort of brownish with floaters in it. Still opaque but off colour. Rub the floaty bits between my fingers and smears like grease and disintegrates. Clutch leaver doesn't feel right. Definitely notice it in first gear when starting out. Very spongy. I will post an end result next week.


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The brake fluid is contaminated with dissolved and bits and pieces of o-ring from the slave cylinder in the clutch that has failed. This specific problem has been reported often. Depending on where the pieces of remaining o-ring get caught, the piston will stick and the clutch will not fully engage (slip) or not fully disengage ( engine stalls when you stop). Just the luck of the draw.

[Can-Am Poogs]

You know I bought a Spyder because HD seem to be in the shop more. Oddly enough my ninja is problem free and easy to maintain, and dealer experience at Kawi is amazing, with overnight parts and same day service. I love my Spyder but geesh.


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[finless]

I just flushed my sm5 clutch system last weekend while doing my 9500 mile service.
DOT 4 fluid was brown and contaminated looking. I was not having issues but did it as a precautionary measure.
Its very easy to do.

Bob

[Bob Denman]

The brake fluid is contaminated with dissolved and bits and pieces of o-ring from the slave cylinder in the clutch that has failed. This specific problem has been reported often. Depending on where the pieces of remaining o-ring get caught, the piston will stick and the clutch will not fully engage (slip) or not fully disengage ( engine stalls when you stop). Just the luck of the draw.

Billy's got this one nailed!

[gypsy_100]

The brake fluid is contaminated with dissolved and bits and pieces of o-ring from the slave cylinder in the clutch that has failed. This specific problem has been reported often. Depending on where the pieces of remaining o-ring get caught, the piston will stick and the clutch will not fully engage (slip) or not fully disengage ( engine stalls when you stop). Just the luck of the draw.

Given the condition of your clutch fluid, this certainly could be the problem. Another possibility which your dealer can check is the operation of the clutch solenoid valve and check valve. Together they provide a vacuum assist in disengaging the clutch to make it easier to pull the lever; the exact amount of assist is computer controlled and disappears totally above 4,000 rpm. However, if the solenoid is malfunctioning or the check valve is not allowing atmospheric pressure back into the diaphragm when you release the lever, you could be getting some vacuum assist pulling on the diaphragm all the time, causing your clutch to slip. Just as though you were lightly pulling on the clutch lever all the time.

[Can-Am Poogs]

Bike dropped off at 9 am at dealer. The mechanic is working the desk because the service manager left or was turfed. I say I would like the bike back for Friday for the long weekend. I get that look like they are not sure it can happen. Upside is they say they will order a clutch pack just in case, and they will see what they can do to get me a loner for the weekend. Oh we'll. can't do anything about it. At least I've got my ninja to ride. Gut feeling this won't be warranty. 15000 km seems premature to me.


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[gypsy_100]

Let us know what happens. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[Bob Denman]

Please keep us in the loop!
Good Luck!

[Can-Am Poogs]

The brake fluid is contaminated with dissolved and bits and pieces of o-ring from the slave cylinder in the clutch that has failed. This specific problem has been reported often. Depending on where the pieces of remaining o-ring get caught, the piston will stick and the clutch will not fully engage (slip) or not fully disengage ( engine stalls when you stop). Just the luck of the draw.

Went to the dealer to look at all the pieces of my clutch laid out on the work bench. I am not mechanic but let me see if I can explain this. The o-rings mentioned above were intact and seated but worn down, this somehow had an effect on the pressure in the system required for the clutch to engage and disengage properly.

The clutch hub which I am lead to believe is a moving a part and grabs hold of the plates in the clutch has been grooved and notched by the one of the clutch plates. The teeth on the leading clutch plate are also bent. The friction plates themselves are actually not in bad shape.

The had the disc kit ordered and had arrived, but when they opened it up found the other issues. Parts should be here early next week and they will put it back together.

First concern is they have been selling Spyders since they first came out, and the originals ones were manual and they have not replaced one worn clutch.

My big question, which is a big concern to me, and no one has was able to give me an answer, is why do the o rings fail in the first place, or break down or dissolve, or erode, or whatever it is that happens to them that causes this catastrophic failure. Two bad "O" rings and it looses its integrity. What the heck. It gets all the regular checks, brp lubricants only. Whats to stop it from happening again? I am told it is a very infrequent problem. What makes my bike different from the guy next door that doesnt have any clutch issues.

If you have the answer let please post them here in this thread, thanks.

I like looking around the shop to see whats in there. CB problems on 2014 RT limited, and throttle body and manifold issues on a 2010 RTS.

[Bob Denman]

I seem to recall Scotty mentioning that the fluid is actually "eating" them...
He was involved in a pretty active discussion about this (perhaps two years ago....)
If you can find that thread...

[finless]

There is a service bulletin about the SM5 clutch system and the O-rings. Something to do with the piston alignment.
When I get home later this week I will look it up for you.

Bob

[IGETAROUND]

My big question, which is a big concern to me, and no one has was able to give me an answer, is why do the o rings fail in the first place, or break down or dissolve, or erode, or whatever it is that happens to them that causes this catastrophic failure. Two bad "O" rings and it looses its integrity. What the heck. It gets all the regular checks, brp lubricants only. Whats to stop it from happening again? I am told it is a very infrequent problem. What makes my bike different from the guy next door that doesnt have any clutch issues.

If you have the answer let please post them here in this thread, thanks.
Not an answer but if you remember the space shuttle Challenger, I seem to recall O ring problems there also Bad