1330 OIL REPORT

[billybovine]

Why not accomplish a small reality check. Take samples of new unused oil and have them tested as a baseline. This would include the BRP mystery oils, both synthetic and blended.

Post the results of each oil as new.

Then if various machines are run with these oils, the results could be posted at a later date.

The Rotella T6 meets the text book definition in the owners manual for the 1330.

5W40 semi-synthetic (minimum)
or synthetic motorcycle oil
meeting the requirements for API service
SL, SJ, SH, SG or higher classification.

So with the knowledge pool gathered here...what in the world is a 5w40 semi-synthetic (minimum), and what is the maximum. Does this mean 20w50 is above the minimum? Is the minimum that it must be at least semi synthetic.

Also, is it really that important if the oil is a III or IV. If it meets the specs called for by engineering, then anything better is more than needed.

All the best with it.

PK

I will disagree for discussion purposes. You say that Rottela T6 meets the requirements of the owners manual. I say it fails to meet the requirement of being a motorcycle oil, it is a heavy equipment oil. In fact more a diesel engine oil.

People point to the JASO MA rating in the description notes as proof it is good for motorcycle wet clutch use. Since BRP does not specify a JASO requirement, is a MA rating good enough? Would they specify a minimum rating of MA2?

[billybovine]

Automatic or rpm based clutches truly can have concerns. Sadly they are somewhat of a moving target. So much of engagement depends on the rider and how their style twists the throttle. The key is obtaining lockup of the clutch. I have never ridden the earlier Spyder, but have worked with many auto clutches. The balance between smooth engagement, lockup, controlling heat, and also the rpm of engagement create variables for not only the design team but also the end user. There seem to be many discussion on here about how the earlier clutch needed higher rpm to lockup.

It is possible that maybe the Rotella t6 is very good at controlling these parameters that it could have used either a lower rpm to lockup or more likely a greater clamp force to hold the plates. Not saying this specifically happened, but it could be also that the riders style created a worn or glazed clutch, the t6 was unable to grab the clutch plates and more slippage occurred.

It would be a great comparison to see if the users of t6 in SM machines were experiencing slippage. That removes the majority of variables and is a good indicator for the clutch and t6 being able to run max hp to the wheel with no slippage.

All the best with it.

PK

In my experience the clutch slippage occurred well above the rated stall speed of 3200 =/-200. It stopped after changing Amsoil. I cannot speak to performance in an SM, I don't have one.

[Tango]

pk you explained it very well. Much better than I.... Having never seen a bottle of BRP oil. Does it have a JASO MA rating? Tom

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

In reply to Bluekinight911 asking about this post, I posted links so others could learn more. I am not sure if Rotella T6 is Type III and if so, what percent is synthetic. The post is accurate though, however a bit tough to follow. To be labeled synthetic oil, it should be 30% or more synthetic. Semi Synthetic will range from 10>30% synthetic.

A concern is the TBN and as explained in the link, higher is better, but also consider that per the link, many oils start new at 6>9. TBN 3 is referenced as a change the oil level.

I do agree 5w40 is a wide range. Myself I would prefer closer ranges based on ambient temps. The thin rating will help during start up, after that the 40 would be my preference.

My take on much of this is that very seldom does the discussion isolate two things. We run oil to lubricate the engine and keep it clean. The oil will become contaminated over time. I doubt our engine has too much effect on shearing the oil and honestly these three cylinder machines do not seem to heavily worked. What is a concern is the gearbox. The gears will pull the oil apart. The engine makes oil dirty from blow by and combustion precess. The gears shred to oil with contamination from the clutch. While no doubt ferrous particles come off the gears, hopefully these are held by the magnetic drain plug.

Considering the 1330 Spyder holds more oil than a small 4 cylinder car, is smaller in displacement of most cars, but does have a gearbox shared with it, the amount of oil held vs the abuse it sees leans towards the machine carries a lot of oil and the oil performance will taper off slowly.

In the engine alone, the oil may very well go over 10k. As a shared design, it may be best to not grab every published mile per the owners manual and spend a bit more for more frequent oil changes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Base_Number

There are many good oils available that are moto rated. Probably all are going to work well and give a long life to the machine.

PK

....Thanks again for your time with this topic and answering questions, especially mine .......I am pretty sure I understand at least 95 % of what you are saying and I agree with your statements and logic 110 % .............................Mikeguyver

[billybovine]

Ahh, comedy...The BRP Synthetic Blend that comes in the "change your oil kit" says a lot about how it is for the BRP products, and being specially designed for BR stuff. Honestly it says nothing to indicate a viscosity, a rating, or any technical info in either English or French.

PK

That's correct and the fact is they don't have to. Before 2009 they did. They were just just putting different label on someone elses product. The API certification follows the formula not the oil brand. When they dropped their previous supplier in 2009 and went with their own formula they did not spend the money to get a API certification. So they don't put any references to API standards or tests on the bottle. Why should they? They are not marketing to use in other branded products.

[Bob Denman]

I think you lost me again...
(Not really all that tough of a thing to do! )

DO YOU THINK...
...That the BRP Blended version; is a good-enough oil to last for the 9300 miles?

[billybovine]

I am willing to listen, seriously, I am.

Could Rotella T6 be too good? Possibly.

Maybe BRP should specify a designated rating that clarifies the owners manual. As is, they stipulate a motorcycle oil and a rating that is reflecting a minimum or higher.

As mentioned, maybe it is too good. Should it meet JASO MA2, not according to BRP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Rotella_T

Motorcycle usage


Though marketed as an engine oil for diesel trucks, Rotella oil has found popularity with motorcyclists as well. The lack of "friction modifiers" in Rotella means they do not interfere with wet clutch operations. (This is called a "shared sump" design, which is unlike automobiles which maintain separate oil reservoirs - one for the engine and one for the transmission). Used oil analysis (UOA) reports on BobIsTheOilGuy.com have shown wear metals levels comparable to oils marketed as motorcycle-specific.
JASO-MA

JASO is an acronym that stands for "The Japanese Automotive Standards Organization." Among other things, they set standards for oil to be used in motorcycles.
Shell Rotella T 15W-40 conventional oil does list on its packaging JASO MA as one of the specifications it meets. Note that the 10W-30 conventional oil does not list JASO-MA.
The newer fully synthetic T6 5W-40 oil lists JASO-MA compliance on its packaging and on the Rotella website.


I said I am willing to listen, the internet has many posts about T6 being used in machines will mileage on them and some have had clutch slippage. There is also a large following of people using T6 with no issues.

An auto clutch can be a difficult item. When we raced Karts, wet clutches were common. While not the exact same, these were smaller in size, but similar in effect. The settings were adjusted to create slip to a given point of torque.


This is a copy and paste from the 2013 RT owners manual

EngineOil
Recommended Engine Oil
The same oil is used for the engine,
gearbox, clutch, and the Hydraulic Control
Module (HCM) on the SE5 model.
Use the XPS 4-STROKE SYNTH.
BLEND OIL (SUMMER) (P/N 293 600
121) or a 5W40 semi-synthetic (minimum)
or synthetic motorcycle oil
meeting the requirements for API service
SL, SJ, SH or SG classification.
Always check the API service label on
the oil container.
NOTICE To avoid damaging the
clutch, do not use a motor oil meeting
theAPI serviceSMor ILSACGF-4
classification. Clutch slippage will
occur.
NOTICE Do not add any oil additives
to the recommended oil. This
may lead to gearbox and clutchmalfunctions.

This is a copy and paste from the current Shell information spec sheet.

SAE Viscosity Grade: 5W-40
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, SM, SL, SH; ACEA E9; Caterpillar
ECF-3, ECF-2; Cummins CES 20081; DDC 93K218; Ford WSS
M2C171-E; JASO DH-2, MA; Mack EO-O Premium Plus; MB Approval
228.31; Volvo VDS-4

According to current published info, the T6 should not be used in the 2013 Spyder.

Possibly Shell had not submitted the oil for new testing when you ran it. Maybe it is just too good for a motorcycle wet clutch, but it seems odd it meets the specs for a wet clutch.

Really, I am listening. Explain some more beyond the clutch slipped and stopped slipping after the oil was "flushed" out. By the sound of it, T6 is too good and an oil that can hold the clutch is less of an oil.

FWIW, I did some looking at BITOG older posts from 2010 and back then T6 was rated as an SM. Not sure what to say, could there have been some bad info and you used an SM oil in a machine specifically not approved for it. I don't know and not accussing, simply asking. Again I am willing to listen.

PK

That is exactly what I did I put an SM rated oil in my 09 that was strictly forbidden by my owner’s manual. That was wrong on my part and regret doing it.

Today on another thread folks again are recommending someone else put Rottela T6 in a 998 engine. Even when the OP said had a better choice available. Again their reason was that it had a JASO MA test result, even though BRP does not specify a JASO rating and completely ignoring the fact that it is API rated SM. Since MA has something to do with motorcycle wet clutch slippage, which must be good and ignore what that means as well. JASO MA does not mean it passed anything; it is a classification based on 3 performance test results. That was what was happening in 2011 as well. Not knowing any better at the time I used it, with the results I stated. Since then I have been doing a lot of reading and have learn a lot about oil. More than I ever want to know in fact. I have read several versions of the actual JASO wet clutch slippage test spec. Sorry off hand I don't remember the spec number. The original spec had 2 possible results for wet clutch slippage MB or MA. In the preamble to a later spec revision it was noted that the MA spec was way too broad for several motorcycle manufacturers and were having clutch slippage issues with oil rated MA. Thus it was revised to 4 possible outcomes, MB, MA, MA1, and MA2. At no point in the spec does it say that any one of these out comes is better than the other. It is up to the manufacturer to specify what is required. Since BRP does not specify a JASO specification to meet I am wary when anyone says that MA is good enough. Why not MA1, maybe MA2 or MB.

I think that anyone using non motorcycle, API SM rated oil in a 998 engine is in violation of the requirements in the owner’s manual. You have the right to do whatever you please. You should own up to whatever the outcome is as well. If you recommend this to someone else you need to warn them that you are in violation of the requirement in the owners manual.

Since this a 1330 thread and not a 998 thread, the API SM rating does not apply. What does apply is that Rottela T6 is not motorcycle oil. It is diesel engine oil, as clearly stated on the front label. Having the JASO test result of MA is meaningless since BRP does not specify a requirement. Because Wikipedia says many people are using it in other motorcycles is also meaningless. The only thing that matters is if you use it in a 1330 engine will it give you 10s of thousands of good performance over multiple oil changes. It may just do that. I don’t know. Anyone claiming that they do, well I won’t say it. We need a couple guinea pigs to try it out. Also live with the result if it does not work out and not blame BRP.

My point in bringing this up in the first place is educational. There could be maybe a down side to Rottela T6. I hate a group think love in. Just because someone or a group says this is good to use may not be accurate. They may not know or understand the facts either. Make your choices based on what you think is best and if you are wrong oh well, fix it and move on and don’t blame someone else. It is also possible this is the best possible oil you could use in your 1330. It just does not meet the requirements of being motorcycle oil.

[billybovine]

I think you lost me again...
(Not really all that tough of a thing to do! )

DO YOU THINK...
...That the BRP Blended version; is a good-enough oil to last for the 9300 miles?

There are some that believe that it is not. It is always possible that they are correct. The most important opinion is BRP's and they claim it is. It is possible that they are wrong.

[Highwayman2013]

I just tried Rotella T6 in my Kawasaki for 3000 miles and it performed well, no clutch slippage .

[Tango]

I think you lost me again...
(Not really all that tough of a thing to do! )

DO YOU THINK...
...That the BRP Blended version; is a good-enough oil to last for the 9300 miles?

In a nut shell, yes. IMHO BRP says so. If you have an engine related, or clutch related problem. And they ask, "what oil did you use"? You kept the receipts, yes? You are covered, if you used their oil. Beyond any doubt. I used your dealer, your oil, your filter. You said I could go 9300 miles, or one year on the same oil. End of story, fix the damn thing. If you do your own oil changes, make sure you keep good records. Friend of mine riding a Victory had an engine related problem. First question asked, "who changed the oil"? He did. Next, "do you have receipts". He had to produce the receipts for the oil and filters. All manufacturers are looking for ways to not approve warranty work. Don't give it to them. Tom

[billybovine]

I have read and re read your post.

OK, so the wrong oil was used and predicted results occurred. No big deal for you anymore. This is behind us.

Yes, this is a 1330 based topic, so even the SM rated oils are allowed.

I have one question at this point. Not arguing or being a smart ass. If we took the motorcycle badging off a bottle of Mobil 1 10w40 moto oil, it too is rated JASO MA what would distinguish it to be a moto oil? I am seeing it is CF rated which should be a diesel rating.

Copied from a Mobil 1 moto spec sheet

Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 motorcycle oil meets or exceeds the requirements of:
API SM
API SL
API SJ
JASO MA

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 is of the following quality level:
API SH
API CF


PK

I have said in the past in many posts that Mobile 1 10w 30 motorcycle oil does not meets the requirements of BRP for 998 engines because it is rated API SM.
It does appear to meet the requirements of BRP for the 1330 engine.
In regards to the JASO MA rating. I know BRP does not specify, but it is rare for a motorcycle oil to only meet JASO MA rating, most meet a MA2 rating. My personal choice if I had a 1330 engine would be not to use Mobile 1 because of the MA rating and go for an oil with a JASO rating of MA2. Because of the unknowns here, reality could be that MA is good enough.

[jcthorne]

The Shell Rotella T6 is JASO MA2 rated, not just MA

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC...en-US)_TDS.pdf

It is also API SM which for the moment appears to negate its use in the 998 but not the 1330. The M1 motorcycle oils are also SM rated. So far the only major brand I have found to meet the requirements for the 998 that is available off the shelf is the Valvoline Motorcycle full synthetic.

[Ivan2]

Thanks for this report!
Question: Would you suggest using BRP's full synthetic, as opposed to their blend?
(I'm getting REAL close to the 3,000 mile tap-dance... I'd like to be sure of what to ask for! )

I recently performed the 9000 mile service on my 2014 and requested the BRP full synthetic oil. I was told by the dealer that BRP no longer recommends the full synthetic because it is causing clutch problems.

[jcthorne]

I recently performed the 9000 mile service on my 2014 and requested the BRP full synthetic oil. I was told by the dealer that BRP no longer recommends the full synthetic because it is causing clutch problems.

It was more likely that your dealer did not have the synthetic in stock and made up a story to tell you to go away. There is no service bulletin to this effect and the BRP synthetic is still for sale on the BRP web site and else where.

[Ed_H]

Below is an URL for JASO specifications and a list of motorcycle oils that are actually certified by Jaso. It's dated 8/1/2014, so it appears current. When the page opens, go to the left column and about 2/3's down you will see...(JASO Onfile)...click on that and then on the next screen click on "ENGLISH" and in the next screen click on the "Motorcycle Four Cycle Gasoline Engine Oil" and you will be at the main info screen. Specs for MA, MA2, are in there.

http://www.jalos.or.jp/

[Tango]

It was more likely that your dealer did not have the synthetic in stock and made up a story to tell you to go away. There is no service bulletin to this effect and the BRP synthetic is still for sale on the BRP web site and else where.

My dealer told me the same thing. Full synthetic not recommended for the 1330. That makes two dealers. Tom

[ulflyer]

My dealer told me the same thing. Full synthetic not recommended for the 1330. That makes two dealers. Tom

I say BALONEY! I think they are confusing "not necessary" with "not recommended". Big, big difference.

[Guzzi]

Whats wrong with just using BRP oil? All the experts on the forum can't seem to agree on what to use? I personally just use the BRP full synthetic on my 2014. I see no issues, and it's a BRP product, so if anything happens, its their problem.

[A1A]

Thanks for posting this oil information thread PW2013STL.

[PW2013STL]

Thanks for posting this oil information thread PW2013STL.

You are welcome and when I get 6000 miles on the Moble 1 I will do the same. 2,000 miles to go!

[OldCowboy]

The Shell Rotella T6 is JASO MA2 rated, not just MA

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC...en-US)_TDS.pdf

It is also API SM which for the moment appears to negate its use in the 998 but not the 1330. The M1 motorcycle oils are also SM rated. So far the only major brand I have found to meet the requirements for the 998 that is available off the shelf is the Valvoline Motorcycle full synthetic.

Castrol Power RS™ Racing 4T is a full synthetic rated API SL and JASO MA2. It is available off the shelf in 10W-40 http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/7305E463374A5C1E80257AA9005372F2/$File/Castrol_Power_RS_4T_06410.pdf

[BikerDoc]

I have gone through the 3000 mile and two 9300 s using BRP Oem oil and it has run great and not used a drop of oil

[Roadster Renovations]

I am home now and have the Napa kit ($15) in hand. Should have some good info on the BRP oil out of my RT by mid-week next week. That oil has almost 4,000 miles on it. Interested to see what the shearing has dropped to. Will also have them check for contaminants including any metals. I'll post the results when I get it.

[obiwan57]

To clarify - I ran BRP oil and had that tested at 6000 miles (9000 on the Spyder). The first service was done by the dealer then at 9000 miles I changed the oil switching over to Mobil 1 motorcycle oil as I have been using Mobil synthatic oil in all my motorcycles for many years with great results.

Hello, is Mobil 1 10W40 a good choice for the 998 motor? I just bought a 2013 Spyder RT Limited, and would like to know what oil to buy to have on hand. The dealer will be doing the regular maintenance, but I know it's good to have oil on hand.

[BajaRon]

My dealer told me the same thing. Full synthetic not recommended for the 1330. That makes two dealers. Tom

Why would a dealer NOT recommend a BETTER product? The only reason I can think of is if the viscosity is wrong.

Dealers USED to say Iridium Spark Plugs were BAD and did not work well in the Rotax motor. Now, guess what comes stock...

When reality and dealers part ways... Stick with reality!