2013 RT Fire, 26 July 2014

[robmorg]

The owners response to another member here on the forum when he asked if they had "certified" BRP techs and where were their certificates was " I you don't like it here take your bike somewhere else." This was a guy down here in MB from NY I gave him another dealer to go to 2hrs away and he had all kinds off issues he was leaking a qt of oil every 500mi among them and the second dealer treated him right. So how do you think my conversation with the selling dealer would go. I doubt he even informed BRP of my complaints even though the techs said they did. No lemon laws in SC either I just want to ride and feel safe with my wife. We want to go cross country but I will not ride farther than 1hr from a dealer. I really do not know what to do right now. It sure looks pretty sitting in my garage and runs fine below 70deg though.

Dave,

I'm sure you've given this thing a LOT of thought, and you don't need anyone telling you what to do. So I'm just going to say three more [short] things and then I'll shut up about it - I promise

1. Don't let that the example you cited sway your mind. The fellow probably went in there with a "NY Attitude" (or at least that's the way the dealer saw it), and you KNOW that does not work very well in SC. (Heck, if I owned the shop and some guy implied that my people didn't know crap by asking where their BRP certifications were, I'd have been tempted to throw him out too.)

2. Sounds like you've got an uncaring selling dealer or maybe one with minimum integrity. Either way, he's using people. That's why I said in my earlier post, "even if you don't necessarily trust them". You paid your money. You don't need to put up with that.

3. Every 2013 RT owner has heat problems, but that's as far as it goes with most of us. (I've pretty much resolved mine by throwing a little money at it, as I've just posted in the RT forum.) BUT you've got something else going on that can and should be fixed by BRP. Having paid a lot of money for your 2013 RT, you owe it to yourself to force someone to make it right so that you can enjoy it. You should be able to make that cross-country trip with your wife.

Just follow the advice of Larry the Cable Guy... Git-r-Done!

[Bob Denman]

"Anne, please do not take this as an assault on you or your opinion.

I believe they can find the cause of your fire and others.

An example of skills: We lost our house to a fire last July. The insurance company hired a fire investigator for the purpose of hopefully getting another company to help pay for the rebuild. The investigator and the forensic engineer found the cause to be a 40 year old fan. They found two VERY SMALL (emphasis not yelling) wires that had shorted. This fan was total toast and to find this was amazing to me. BTW, a melted Sony Play Station was operated on by the investigator. His skill was like a surgeon. He got down to minuscule wires to determine it was NOT the cause. I was amazed at the skills these people have.

My purpose for posting this is solely to show.....Where there is a will there is a way. I would be surprised that the same investigation techniques were not performed on these fires. Perhaps NHTSA will do them.

A lesson to be learned in this matter......Bigger companies have fallen then BRP. The most recent example is GM and Toyota. Thankfully no one has died in these situations."




Spyderann 2013 RTS 01.jpgSpyderAnne 2013 RTS.jpg Where would you have suggested that they start?
I've spoken with arson investigators many times over the years; this would have been a really tough nut to crack...
Obviously; not much can be learned by the uninitiated from only two pictures...
The fire started from a central location on the bike, and spread pretty evenly across the combustible surfaces.
But you already knew that!
Investigating a fire in a home is much easier; there simply is a lot more left after the conflagration has been extinguished.

[JkRbbt]

Hi Jack!
I'm curious...
Would you have voluntarily worked harder; for less money?

I, too, worked for a major air carrier for nearly 30 yrs. I understand Jack's point about major corporations. I think that was his point. What's yours?

[Bob Denman]

Careful getting down off that soapbox Bob, you might hurt yourself. Yes unfortunately the whole world is run by greed and the "GOD ALMIGHTY DOLLAR" or Yen-Ruble-wan etc. After Flying all over the world for a major Airline for 35 years I found out it is the same where ever you go no matter what country your in or who you are dealing with. You buy your ticket and you take your chances. I especially like the life time warranties. Most companies are in business a few years and never to be heard from again.

I am 99% sure BRP will not fix this problem but R&D it out of future products. Not all 2013 owners are affected anymore than 2010-2012 years. There are a lot of 2013's on the road with no problems and few complaints. My philosophy is and always has been "make the best with what you've got". Or "Dance with the one you brought".

In all reality, it is cheaper for BRP or any other corporation to stall and settle for pennies on the dollar on the few fires that occur rather than fix the whole fleet. Cost of four RT-S =$100,000 Vs cost of approximately 10,000 2013 RT-S = $250,000,000. Well you can do the math an figure the board decision. I do not like it, you do not like it, but that is pretty much how it is. I have served on several large boards and it is always the bottom line that rules.

Back to the subject at hand, I do feel that BRP will handle each case as it comes whether you or we feel it is fair. I do hope no one is seriously hurt or injured in any of this. If so it would be a turning point for Federal help to assist.

BRP is one of the worlds largest corporations and they got there by being the "Big Company with the Small Heart" as did most large corporations. I worked for one for 35 years.

Somebody help me. I have fallen off the "soap box" and can't get up!

Jack

Please tell me where he made his point; I don't see it.

If you actually go back and read my original post on the topic; my point is rather clear.

EDIT: PM sent with my post...

[Jeriatric]

"Anne, please do not take this as an assault on you or your opinion.

I believe they can find the cause of your fire and others.

An example of skills: We lost our house to a fire last July. The insurance company hired a fire investigator for the purpose of hopefully getting another company to help pay for the rebuild. The investigator and the forensic engineer found the cause to be a 40 year old fan. They found two VERY SMALL (emphasis not yelling) wires that had shorted. This fan was total toast and to find this was amazing to me. BTW, a melted Sony Play Station was operated on by the investigator. His skill was like a surgeon. He got down to minuscule wires to determine it was NOT the cause. I was amazed at the skills these people have.

My purpose for posting this is solely to show.....Where there is a will there is a way. I would be surprised that the same investigation techniques were not performed on these fires. Perhaps NHTSA will do them.

A lesson to be learned in this matter......Bigger companies have fallen then BRP. The most recent example is GM and Toyota. Thankfully no one has died in these situations."




Spyderann 2013 RTS 01.jpgSpyderAnne 2013 RTS.jpg Where would you have suggested that they start?
I've spoken with arson investigators many times over the years; this would have been a really tough nut to crack...
Obviously; not much can be learned by the uninitiated from only two pictures...
The fire started from a central location on the bike, and spread pretty evenly across the combustible surfaces.
But you already knew that!
Investigating a fire in a home is much easier; there simply is a lot more left after the conflagration has been extinguished.

One need not look back any further than Chevy's Corvair to understand why some burn. Design flaws and inadequate ancillary parts.

[jaherbst]

Hi Jack!
I'm curious...
Would you have voluntarily worked harder; for less money?

My Airline Pilots union says NO. Although all the strikes we had I probably did. RIP-NWA now Delta. It was a great career and I enjoyed it immensely. 727-707-DC-10-747. Thirty three of the thirty five were as Captain. (mo money) See I am a whore also.

Jack

[Bob Denman]

Thanks for the response!
Money simply drives ALL of us...
I envy nobody for their accumulated fortunes; in fact, I want to be just like them!

[jaherbst]

Please tell me where he made his point; I don't see it.

If you actually go back and read my original post on the topic; my point is rather clear.

EDIT: PM sent with my post...

If you ever worked for a large Corporation you would understand it is always the bottom line. No human input or apathy/sympathy for the individual. He does not exist. He is just a payroll number. No decisions include him unless the union gets involved.

Really was not trying to make any point but to point out BRP will handle these problems the same way as most large corporations and not to expect too much.

Jack

[Cruzr Joe]

I'll do my best to give them any info I can. I really hope this issue can be identified and fixed before someone else loses their Spyder. I'm already trying to accept the fact that I've probably lost a lot of money on the add-ons I bought for it. Aside from the heat and fumes we did have fun riding it and I spent a lot of time making the Spyder my own. I guess one of the reasons I'm so upset about this is that even though it gave me a lot of problems, at the same time it felt like it was really mine and I was proud of it.

Anyway, I'll post more when I have it to give.

My insurance policy says it will cover up to 1,000 dollars of extras.

Cruzr joe

[Vidman]

"Anne, please do not take this as an assault on you or your opinion.

I believe they can find the cause of your fire and others.

An example of skills: We lost our house to a fire last July. The insurance company hired a fire investigator for the purpose of hopefully getting another company to help pay for the rebuild. The investigator and the forensic engineer found the cause to be a 40 year old fan. They found two VERY SMALL (emphasis not yelling) wires that had shorted. This fan was total toast and to find this was amazing to me. BTW, a melted Sony Play Station was operated on by the investigator. His skill was like a surgeon. He got down to minuscule wires to determine it was NOT the cause. I was amazed at the skills these people have.

My purpose for posting this is solely to show.....Where there is a will there is a way. I would be surprised that the same investigation techniques were not performed on these fires. Perhaps NHTSA will do them.

A lesson to be learned in this matter......Bigger companies have fallen then BRP. The most recent example is GM and Toyota. Thankfully no one has died in these situations."




Spyderann 2013 RTS 01.jpgSpyderAnne 2013 RTS.jpg Where would you have suggested that they start?
I've spoken with arson investigators many times over the years; this would have been a really tough nut to crack...
Obviously; not much can be learned by the uninitiated from only two pictures...
The fire started from a central location on the bike, and spread pretty evenly across the combustible surfaces.
But you already knew that!
Investigating a fire in a home is much easier; there simply is a lot more left after the conflagration has been extinguished.

Perhaps you are correct Bob. Not interested in an online argument. Being in the insurance business you have much more experience. However, you didn't have experience in my case. By looking at the pictures there were more left in this Spyder then was in the room where our fire started along with the top half of our house.

My point is that it can be investigated. I we shouldn't be surprised what these engineers and investigators could find.

Where would I start I am only a retired street cop and NOT a trained fire investigator or engineer. In this case a forensic engineer would probably be the best.

[Magdave]

Dave,


3. Every 2013 RT owner has heat problems, but that's as far as it goes with most of us. (I've pretty much resolved mine by throwing a little money at it, as I've just posted in the RT forum.) BUT you've got something else going on that can and should be fixed by BRP. Having paid a lot of money for your 2013 RT, you owe it to yourself to force someone to make it right so that you can enjoy it. You should be able to make that cross-country trip with your wife.

Just follow the advice of Larry the Cable Guy... Git-r-Done!

I appreciate your advice but the guy I mentioned and his wife were 2 of the nicest people I have ever met but he knew from reputation what he might be walking into so he asked a simple question and was basically tossed out.

Here is the conundrum now I suspect most, if not all, of the fires started by the Brake cylinder (notice the black smoke in the first pic.) many pictures have shown them to be partially melted before the tinfoil fix. Now with the canister wrapped and cylinder wrapped it is impossible to inspect them. Heck I went in later when they had the panel off for a clutch leak they ( I did actually) found my evap canister floating around (at my dealer) and he told me the tech must not have clipped it back in right. I then watched the service manger try to do it. With the wrap on it was difficult to do. Will it stay that way ? If it doesn't it will rest on the exhaust pipe. Poor engineering IMHO to even put it as close as it is. Too many "If's" for my liking and being an engineer I pay more attention than the average guy to what is going on. I am not so worried about myself I can dump it and jump off but not so easy for my wife. I have tossed some money into wrapping the tank but hesitate doing much else because it is not MY FAULT these thing are happening. Time will tell if BRP was lying about addition fixes they proclaimed earlier this year but the time is clicking and they need to tell us it is in the pipeline and estimated roll out time IMHO. I had a Corvair that did catch fire but this thing makes me paranoid every time I see another fire. I still think a 5k (min) rebate on top of any incentives for 2013 owners to upgrade would be a good incentive too. It would make me feel better and I am sure a lot would jump at it assuming they don't lowball the trade in to make up for it.

[oldguyinTX]

Bob, leave out the RT and you will get all of the complaints. It is funny, yesterday I went on the site and they asked me if I wanted to take a survey about my visit on the site. I let them know just how difficult it is to navigate. Today I went back and signed up for email notifications so we will see who else enters their experiences.

Ann, I also signed up for Email notification, but you will only get an Email about a recall - any and all recalls - but no Emails about complaints filed.

[Spiderwoman]

Carlo from BRP contacted me today and asked me to send him info and pics. I had not previously tried to reach them so they obviously monitor this website. I also got a call from the nearest BRP dealer near me (Coyne) with their service rep Kyle asking what happened and if I was ok (which was nice), so I believe they read this site too. Nothing further than that has been done so far.

They are watching this forum and they reached out to me first. That's a good start. We'll see where it goes from there.

First and foremost. Glad to hear your OK!

Your misfortune seems to have finally gotten some attention from BRP regarding the problems associated with Spyders that do have some heat problems. I have also been trying to get some assistance from Customer Care regarding a heat problem I have had with a 2012 RS since I purchased new from a Dealer. This is not my first Spyder. I owned a 2008 GS with normal heat problems associated with higher temps and longer ride time. This 12 is a different game entirely. Its unbearable to ride even with full gear and 65 degree temps. I'm hoping that the contact that I just received will get me the help needed from BRP to resolve my issue.

[Oldmanzues]

Glad the OP is OK. That is some scary stuff. I hope BRP can figure these fires out but I do know they're not just sitting on their hands hoping it just goes away.

And another thing. Is it my imagination or do people hold BRP to a higher standard then say GM or Toyota. Both of those large corporations tried to cover up defects that directly led to deaths, but their sales just keep rolling along like nothing happened.

Just saw on the news, 6 recalls on chev and GMC pick ups, 2014 models

[robmorg]

I still think a 5k (min) rebate on top of any incentives for 2013 owners to upgrade would be a good incentive too. It would make me feel better and I am sure a lot would jump at it assuming they don't lowball the trade in to make up for it.

I like that idea, but it would be hard to do because of the "$4000 rebate/3-year warranty" offer currently running from BRP on untitled 2013 RT's. That drives down the resale price of used 2013's and therefore the trade amount dealers are willing to offer by the same amount. As we get closer to the end of the summer, BRP will likely sweeten the rebate deal for 2013's even more, if there are still many left.

[robmorg]

Here is the conundrum now I suspect most, if not all, of the fires started by the Brake cylinder (notice the black smoke in the first pic.) many pictures have shown them to be partially melted before the tinfoil fix. Now with the canister wrapped and cylinder wrapped it is impossible to inspect them. Heck I went in later when they had the panel off for a clutch leak they ( I did actually) found my evap canister floating around (at my dealer) and he told me the tech must not have clipped it back in right. I then watched the service manger try to do it. With the wrap on it was difficult to do. Will it stay that way ?

Dave,

I've recently read Warranty Bulletin 2013-8. (Here's a link to it.) It is very thorough, even though it stops short of doing any major "re-routing" of the heat. It does call for inspection, and replacing as necessary, of all the affected parts before wrapping with reflective heat shielding, etc. However we all know that some technicians are more attentive than others, and therein lies the potential problem you speak of. Don't know what the answer to that is, since as you say, it's hard to inspect the parts once the shielding is stuck on there.

[KAPike]

I'm thinking if I had a 2013 with heat issues I'd make sure my insurance was paid up and then I'd put on some type of fire retardant suit and get out there and ride and ride and ride. Eventually that baby is going to burn. Anyone who thinks BRP is going to help after a fire is just kidding themselves. This is the best case scenario for BRP, one less 2013 to haunt them later. BRP is shifting the financial responsibility to the insurance company. I have to believe the motorcycle insurance companies will get smart to the 2013 heat issues after a few more claims like this one and the rates for the 2013's will sky rocket. In the end we will all pay the price for BRP's problem and lack of response with higher rates. For us it's personal, for BRP it's just business.

[HuckFin]

One need not look back any further than Chevy's Corvair to understand why some burn. Design flaws and inadequate ancillary parts.

How did Corvairs get drug into this? I have owned Corvairs for 45+ years and never heard of any designed in flaws that caused them to catch on fire. I'm sure some have caught on fire because of poor maintenance, but not from some designed in flaw.

[granpa in Cincy]

Ford Pinto maybe.

[Bob Denman]

How did Corvairs get drug into this? I have owned Corvairs for 45+ years and never heard of any designed in flaws that caused them to catch on fire. I'm sure some have caught on fire because of poor maintenance, but not from some designed in flaw.

I was wondering about that as well...
They just got a lot of "Bad Press" right from the start...
Their handling problems weren't really a whole lot worse than most any other car being built at the time either!

[Pirate looks at --]

So you personally know what caused this fire before anyone else? We on this forum do not know what mods have been made to this bike either by BRP or the owner. The owner of this machine stated that he spent thousands to correct the heat problem.
Really, on a 2013 that is under warranty.

I have owned 4 spyders one was a 2013 RT .............. put 7500 miles on it without issue. Traded for a 2013 ST Ltd.
In my opinion, people such as yourself do incite dislike and mistrust.
Also, even though I have had no dealings with Carlo at BRP, many people on this forum seem to like him and find him helpful.
If you dislike these -in your own words- dangerous machines, why don't you just sell it and buy a Toyota or GM or Ford or Honda or HD product? They have all had recalls for a variety of things.
I don't care if some on this forum find this post a little salty or acidic, get out your flame throwers I can take it.
Wait for the facts of the fire investigation, then start spouting off!

No one is forcing you to keep your Spyder!

[bruiser]

I've resisted getting in on this. I was a volunteer firefighter/EMT and was one of the two trained fire investigators in our department. We were trained by a state investigator. In the interest of full disclosure, we didn't have the entire school. That would have taken too long. I was also an air/ground accident investigator in the Air Force. All this to say that investigating fires takes a lot of time, knowledge, patience and objectiveness. The good investigator will start by ruling out causes more so than looking strictly for causes. Some causes jump right out at you. Most are hidden and require a lot of looking. Forensic investigators are fairly new and few.

Very recently it was found that fire investigation training needs to be looked at again. The following is an excerpt from an article written by Jim Crawford in the April 30, 2011 issue of
FireRescue.

Down the Wrong Path
I’m content to let the experts argue the finer points of these cases. To me, the shared lesson is our need to increase our understanding of fire behavior and interject more science into fire investigations.

Arson isn’t the only problem. It’s common for insurance companies to hire their own fire investigators and for subrogation suits to be brought over what kind of equipment failure led to a fire and who should be paying the bulk of the fire losses involved. Improperly applied investigation techniques may lead to improper product liability conclusions as well.

Further, don’t we want to know what really happens in fires so that we can learn how to best prevent them? If we’re basing our prevention efforts on false assumptions, the steps we take to prevent fires may well be unsuccessful—not as bad as sending an innocent person to jail, maybe, but still a false conclusion that steers us in a bad direction.

If you’re interested in learning more on this topic, there’s a wealth of additional information online. NFPA 921: Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations is another resource.

"The International Association of Arson Investigators and the National Association of Fire Investigators are dedicated to improving the professionalism of the field and will continue to push for the advancement of the science of fire investigation. In the meantime, however, you might want to reflect on how investigations are done in your department, and whether more rigorous standards are warranted.

Bottom line: If you still think that just anyone can handle your fire investigations, you’re missing the boat.

[murphybrown]

This is what happens when PROFIT becomes the god, and the customer becomes the PAWN in the game. Seems like this the prevailing attitude in business today.
No one can tell me that BRP didn't know that there was a high likelyhood of a fire producing fuel issue in certain '08-'13 models. Let's not forget the poor chap somewhere on this forum that is having issues with his 622 eating tires, and BRP's reluctance to "do the right thing". Instead he is being made to jump thru many hoops. What about the rear tires on the 1330s?
I've been lurking around here for a little over a year trying to gather information about the RTs knowing full well that I was facing a complicated reconstructive surgery on my left hand/wrist and forearm which could curtail my riding because of not being able to operate the clutch for an extended trip post rehab. I had that surgery on May 16th, and have been on STD since.
I've only known ONE person that BRP responded to in a "timely"and appropriate fashion when her '13 RT model went up in flames. That's ONE out of how many? Is it possible that BRP makes people sign non-disclosure agreements when they receive replacement products,, or compensation and so "we" never find out about their good deeds here?
Just based on the stories I have read, I've come to the conclusion that BRP is way too much of a customer insensitive company for my liking. I'll figure out how to operate my clutch on my current ride, or give up riding all together.
Mike

That (first and foremost) I am a man (anyway last time I looked I was still female..). And second and much more important that BRP is reluctant "to do the right thing" with my 622 trailer that seems to like tires more than I like candy. Carlo from BRP has been very responsive as has my dealer, Pitbull Powersports. Now in my mind it would be so simple ...to just say replace the trailer. BUT that is not the way any vehicle warranty works (not limited to BRP). I know I have to do things BRP way and I am willing to do that. Takes a little longer, and sometimes a source of frustration, when my I WANT IT NOW attitude kicks in. BUT I have always had response from Carlo and Pitbull. I trust that they will do what is right and that I will end up with a non tire eating trailer. Keeping scrupulous records of what is occurring...they need that information and it eliminates the "he said/she said" .. plus I like clarity and without that I end up . So Mike if nothing else from my answer remember I am WOMAN and Carlo at BRP is alive, well and doing his job .

[SpyderDuck]

I like that idea, but it would be hard to do because of the "$4000 rebate/3-year warranty" offer currently running from BRP on untitled 2013 RT's. That drives down the resale price of used 2013's and therefore the trade amount dealers are willing to offer by the same amount. As we get closer to the end of the summer, BRP will likely sweeten the rebate deal for 2013's even more, if there are still many left.

If anyone reading here does purchase on of the 2013 RTs because of the great offers out there, please do some due diligence. Find out what 'fixes' were issued by BRP on this model, and make sure the dealer has done them! Don't trust their records on the bike.

The dealer I purchased my 2009 RS from did not install a ground wire, and I had transmission issues for almost a year, until a BRP tech at an owner's event installed the wire. This fix was a service bulletin that was issued long before I had purchased the bike. Later, another dealer was surprised to find that according to the service records on the bike, the ground wire had been installed many months before I bought it.

Quite frankly, the dealer that I had purchased from had falsified the service record, which was astonishing, considering how small this fix was; it only took 5 minutes and a cheap ground wire. My issue was annoying, and could have been dangerous in certain situations, but not as dangerous as the threat of fire. So do be careful if you decide to purchase the 2013 RT, and check behind the dealer, just in case. If they get really nasty or upset that you want to check, then do you really want to do business with them, anyway?

[spydee owner]

That (first and foremost) I am a man (anyway last time I looked I was still female..). And second and much more important that BRP is reluctant "to do the right thing" with my 622 trailer that seems to like tires more than I like candy. Carlo from BRP has been very responsive as has my dealer, Pitbull Powersports. Now in my mind it would be so simple ...to just say replace the trailer. BUT that is not the way any vehicle warranty works (not limited to BRP). I know I have to do things BRP way and I am willing to do that. Takes a little longer, and sometimes a source of frustration, when my I WANT IT NOW attitude kicks in. BUT I have always had response from Carlo and Pitbull. I trust that they will do what is right and that I will end up with a non tire eating trailer. Keeping scrupulous records of what is occurring...they need that information and it eliminates the "he said/she said" .. plus I like clarity and without that I end up . So Mike if nothing else from my answer remember I am WOMAN and Carlo at BRP is alive, well and doing his job .

It's a trailer! How hard can it be for BRP to fix? The fact that other bikers behind you said it was dog tracking would suggest to me a frame issue. If I were BRP, I would just replace the trailer, refurb yours and sell yours as a refurbed unit.