Going Solar

[ARtraveler]

There are a lot of "hidden" costs to consider and it can get into some interesting accounting when trying to determine "true cost" of a solar system.

I was also under the impression that the power company also has to "buy back" any excess power that is generated by either wind or solar systems installed by a home owner.

It is good to see that there are some viable alternatives to the energy question.

Not feasible here, we do not get enough solar in the winter to make it work.

[jerpinoy]

For southern states esp. Texas and AZ. have solar energy potential.

Tips for less power consumption
1. LED lites are better than other energy saving bulbs.
2. Eat more fresh fruits and vegetables. Less cooking less power.
3. Try to lay a water hoses or any other pipe under the sun and route this hoses to the cold side of the water heater tank. This is the most power saving you can do because your water is preheated and your water heater will use less power.
Note: install a y water valve next to you water heater if you need to in case you need to switch during winter or cold freezing condition.

More power to all green power users.

So what it will time to get your money back by using green power.
Our grand kids will be proud of us by doing so for them

[Bob Denman]

I got you beat by a little. May - August, my electric bill is usually less than $40.

Is that $40 per Month?
I'm pretty close; at $85 for TWO Months!

[ARtraveler]

Is that $40 per Month?
I'm pretty close; at $85 for TWO Months!

Yep and Yep. I rounded up a little bit though.

[Bob Denman]

I bow to your sensible power utilization...



...in the Summertime!

[cuznjohn]

i hate the heat so with central AC in the house i keep the house set to cold and just leave it that way. i could never live w/o ac. if my power was out i would most likely go live in my car with the dogs, lol

[JerryB]

Hi jockey,

Disclaimer: I am supporter of alternate sources of energy.

I found this earlier today on another forum:

New Study Shows Solar’s Value to Grid

Rhone Resch
July 09, 2014

If you listen to many utility executives, distributed solar energy has the potential to destabilize electrical grids and result in huge cost shifts for many American consumers. Well, as the Irish are fond of saying: blarney!

A new, independent study prepared for the Nevada Public Utilities Commission estimates that the grid benefits of rooftop solar systems installed in the state through 2016 will outweigh costs by more than $36 million, confirming that solar energy can provide real savings for both solar and non-solar customers alike.

According to San Francisco-based Energy + Environmental Economics (E3), the state’s net energy metering (NEM) program – which gives Nevada residents full credit on their energy bills for the clean electricity they deliver to the utility grid – has “no substantial cost shift to nonparticipants…given the current and proposed reforms to the program.” What’s more, accounting for the cost savings of avoided distribution upgrades, E3 estimates a net benefit of $166 million over the lifetime of solar systems installed through 2016.
==================

http://pucweb1.state.nv.us/...ENT/2013-7/39428.pdf

Jerry Baumchen
Ret'd. Mech. Engr.

[Spyderjockey]

[QUOTE=akspyderman;839541]
I was also under the impression that the power company also has to "buy back" any excess power that is generated by either wind or solar systems installed by a home owner.


That is true, but only once a year. The rest of the time you just keep building your "bank" and draw from it as needed. At the end of the year if their is anything in your "bank" they have to buy it back, but at slightly lower rate.

[Spyderjockey]

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal. If I could find a company willing to offer a package like that here in Houston, would be all over it. But the last quote we got for $45,000 up front cost and a 'written warranty' from a company that will be gone before the 20 yrs.....no thanks. Sounds like the terms are getting better and the long term lease contracts are getting more wide spread. Glad to hear it. Perhaps someday Houston too.

Sorry to say you are right, Sungevity does not do business in Texas. Maybe in the future they will.

[loisk]

10 or 11 cents !! Wow we are about 33 c here, and if you have solar (which we do) you pay more per kwh .. then they give you a tiny rebate. Plus a $1 a day "service charge" which we pay even if we disconnect from the grid - if it goes past the driveway, you pay...
We can only dream of $700 pa - with or without solar.

[Spyderjockey]

I got you beat by a little. May - August, my electric bill is usually less than $40.

If my electric bill was any where near yours I would not even consider solar panels. If my bill was around $100, I would not go solar. My bill as I said is $200 a month and they are showing that we are still behind or owe the power company over $300 after this month's budget payment.

The other thing is we have an outdoor woodstove that we use year round. In the summer we use it for our domestic hot water only. Our water heater has only been used as a "storage" tank for the hot water coming in from the stove. So we have no electric water heater, no large freezer (only freezer in the fridge unit), of course no swimming pool, no A/C, we eat out a lot so very little cooking on electric stove, my wife hangs clothes out to dry, and I am anal about lights being left on.

I have had National Grid, our power company, come up a lot over the years to try to determine why our bill is so very high, to no avail. Several years ago they changed our meter from analog to digital and I was hopeful that doing that would change things, but no such luck. Even the many techs that we have had come to our house to try and figure out what was going on, admit that the bill is very high. They even had an electronic usage graph on at the meter to see if there were any unusual spikes......like our well pump cycling on and off.....but nothing showed up.

Anyway that is the reason we have gone to Solar. As a side note my neighbor across the road from us has very unusually high electric bills also. Up until last month he told me his bills were running from $350 to $450 a month, but last month his bill went up to just under $700, because he had changed suppliers that was supposed to save him money. Needless to say he went back to National Grid as his supplier. Also needless to say he is talking to Sungevity about going solar.

[Spyderjockey]

Hi jockey,

Disclaimer: I am supporter of alternate sources of energy.

I found this earlier today on another forum:

New Study Shows Solar’s Value to Grid

Rhone Resch
July 09, 2014

If you listen to many utility executives, distributed solar energy has the potential to destabilize electrical grids and result in huge cost shifts for many American consumers. Well, as the Irish are fond of saying: blarney!

A new, independent study prepared for the Nevada Public Utilities Commission estimates that the grid benefits of rooftop solar systems installed in the state through 2016 will outweigh costs by more than $36 million, confirming that solar energy can provide real savings for both solar and non-solar customers alike.

According to San Francisco-based Energy + Environmental Economics (E3), the state’s net energy metering (NEM) program – which gives Nevada residents full credit on their energy bills for the clean electricity they deliver to the utility grid – has “no substantial cost shift to nonparticipants…given the current and proposed reforms to the program.” What’s more, accounting for the cost savings of avoided distribution upgrades, E3 estimates a net benefit of $166 million over the lifetime of solar systems installed through 2016.
==================

http://pucweb1.state.nv.us/...ENT/2013-7/39428.pdf

Jerry Baumchen
Ret'd. Mech. Engr.

That is very interesting and something I had no knowledge of.

[ARtraveler]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman Our last bill for two Months, was just about $85.
Apparently; we stumble around in the dark a lot!


I got you beat by a little. May - August, my electric bill is usually less than $40.

UPDATE: Just got my electric bill for June. $21.35. Will enjoy it while it lasts.

[Spyderjockey]

I just added a few more pics. showing the 56 panels on the roof and the 2 inverts to convert the DC power coming in to AC current. Some of the pictures are out of order, but you can get the idea.

http://s777.photobucket.com/user/spy...20Installation

[Magdave]

Have any of these solar suppliers told you the panels lose efficiency every year and have to be kept clean regularly? I have seen some off the grid homes done but they are pretty fugly and panels are everywhere. In 20yrs they will need to be replaced. Panels are getting more efficient but not there yet. Just the opinion of an electrical engineer who teaches about these at our local Tech College. The solar industry (home type) needs more regulation and disclosure. Be sure to ask about what I just told you before you shell out some big $$$ for a system that will gradually degrade. Make sure you know what type you are getting some are better (and more $$$) than others. Remember most states also have rebates or tax credits to get it done and the feds used to also not sure if it is going away. Just over the horizon are solar shingles that is when I am going to get serious if I live that long and prices come down.
http://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/

http://www.dowpowerhouse.com/

http://www.hgtv.com/video/solar-ener...deo/index.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=sola...w=1577&bih=813

[Spyderjockey]

Have any of these solar suppliers told you the panels lose efficiency every year and have to be kept clean regularly? I have seen some off the grid homes done but they are pretty fugly and panels are everywhere. In 20yrs they will need to be replaced. Panels are getting more efficient but not there yet. Just the opinion of an electrical engineer who teaches about these at our local Tech College. The solar industry (home type) needs more regulation and disclosure. Be sure to ask about what I just told you before you shell out some big $$$ for a system that will gradually degrade. Make sure you know what type you are getting some are better (and more $$$) than others. Remember most states also have rebates or tax credits to get it done and the feds used to also not sure if it is going away. Just over the horizon are solar shingles that is when I am going to get serious if I live that long and prices come down.
http://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/

http://www.dowpowerhouse.com/

http://www.hgtv.com/video/solar-ener...deo/index.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=sola...w=1577&bih=813

Yes I know that as the system ages it does degrade. I have a written guarantee about the yearly production amounts of electricity that is produced: Here is the the guarantee:

Energy Production Guarantee. Sungevity guarantees during the Lease Term that the System will
generate the guaranteed annual kilowatt-hours ("kWh") ("Guaranteed Annual kWh") of energy set
forth in Exhibit B, as follows:
i. Production Year Deficit. If at the end of each successive twelve (12) month anniversary of
your first monthly payment (a "Production Year") the Actual Annual kWh (defined below)
generated by the System is less than the Guaranteed Annual kWh, then we will send
you a refund equal to the difference between that Production Year's Actual Annual kWh
and Guaranteed Annual kWh (minus any previous year's surpluses), multiplied by that
Production Year's Guaranteed Energy Price per kWh (defined below). We will make that
payment within thirty (30) days of the end of the calendar year in which the Production
Year Deficit occurred.

Here is the guaranteed production values for each year for the 20 year lease. At the end of the lease the guaranteed production will degrade by about 10%.:

The graph would not load the way it is shown on my contract so I added the different colored explanation of the columns.



Table of Guaranteed Annual kWh
PRODUCTION YEAR GUARANTEED ENERGY PRICE PER KWH ESTIMATED ANNUAL KWH GUARANTEED ANNUAL KWH

The first column is the Production Year--2nd column is GUARANTEED ENERGY PRICE PER KWH--3rd column is ESTIMATED ANNUAL KWH--4th column is GUARANTEED ANNUAL KWH

1 $ 0.1234 14585 13856
2 $ 0.1278 14512 13786
3 $ 0.1323 14440 13718
4 $ 0.1369 14367 13649
5 $ 0.1417 14295 13580
6 $ 0.1467 14224 13513
7 $ 0.1519 14153 13445
8 $ 0.1572 14082 13378
9 $ 0.1628 14012 13311
10 $ 0.1685 13942 13245
11 $ 0.1744 13872 13178
12 $ 0.1805 13803 13113
13 $ 0.1869 13734 13047
14 $ 0.1935 13665 12982
15 $ 0.2003 13597 12917
16 $ 0.2073 13529 12853
17 $ 0.2146 13461 12788
18 $ 0.2222 13394 12724
19 $ 0.2300 13327 12661
20 $ 0.2381 13260 12597

Also as I have stated before, there are no up front costs to me. When the system is up and running I just start paying the lease payment. The system will be operable by the end of tomorrow, but then I have to wait for the power company to do their inspection which is usually 2 to 4 weeks from the day the system become operable.


Another point people seem to be missing is that all maintenance is done by Sungevity including replacing the inverters when they need replacing, which is included in the lease agreement.

[Magdave]

Yes I know that as the system ages it does degrade.
Another point people seem to be missing is that all maintenance is done by Sungevity including replacing the inverters when they need replacing, which is included in the lease agreement.

We can't miss a point we can't read in the lease. Don't be mistaken YOU are paying for the maintenance and replacements. It all sounds OK with a touch of snake oil on the 10% over 20yr loss claim. A lot of variables involved in how long and well a panel works. Are they going to come and clean it too? Imagine a car sitting in the driveway for months or years what would it look like? I find the claims for generation a little high for your part of the country too. What is the average sunlight days number for your location? Unless all panels are pointed south there will be a big difference seasonally the farther north you go. Even if southern pointed it will still lose a lot in the fall and winter. Don't get me wrong I am all for green energy but signing a 20yr lease makes me a little leery considering the longevity of most solar companies in this still developing market. Good Luck with it hope it is all you hope for.

[wyliec]

Don't get me wrong I am all for green energy but signing a 20yr lease makes me a little leery considering the longevity of most solar companies in this still developing market. Good Luck with it hope it is all you hope for.

I started hearing about residential solar panels back in 1969. I would think by this point in time they would be pretty much developed, with only tweaks for better materials. I actually thought they hit their peak and were on a downslide now, regarding sales.

[Cavman]

I was talking to a buddy about solar. He mentioned that you should not tie it into your solar power system so that it is connected to what comes into your house from the power company. The power companies have it that if the grid goes down, it will take your solar system down also. Then you will be without power also. Make sense to me.

[Magdave]

I started hearing about residential solar panels back in 1969. I would think by this point in time they would be pretty much developed, with only tweaks for better materials. I actually thought they hit their peak and were on a downslide now, regarding sales.

It wasn't till post 2000 did the panel's cost and efficiency get to a viable point for consumers. Not sure on the sales end but when peak oil really starts to ramp down solar and wind sales will pick back up...permanently. Question is who in the industry will be there over the next 20yrs?

[jcthorne]

I like the terms presented in the lease arrangement. My only concern would be what if Sungevity ceases to exist? Who owns the panels, who maintains them and what obligation do you have to make lease payments irregardless of performance of Sungevity or the panels? It is interesting to note that the performance warranty is worded as a refund less extra power generated in months prior. Over time, that banks quite a bit to draw down from before there will be any refund. Also obligates you to make lease payments irregardless of the performance of the system and requires you to seek refunds after the fact.

It all sounds great now, its what happens 10yrs from now when Sungevity is no longer making money hand over fist with new installs and the outlay becomes larger than the income. Who actually holds the lease contract etc.

One thing to sign a long term lease with a company that has been around longer than you have been alive, but quite another when they have only been around for a few years in a new industry.

Once they make all they can, bankruptcy does not hurt them. You miss one lease payment to the then owner of the contract and you credit rating takes the hit forever.....It all seems pretty one sided to me, much like cell phone contracts.

[Magdave]

I was talking to a buddy about solar. He mentioned that you should not tie it into your solar power system so that it is connected to what comes into your house from the power company. The power companies have it that if the grid goes down, it will take your solar system down also. Then you will be without power also. Make sense to me.

Most systems have a disconnect so that can't happen. Of course a grid surge could, in theory, take out the inverters in the right circumstances.

[Magdave]

A good video to view

[Spyderjockey]

I was talking to a buddy about solar. He mentioned that you should not tie it into your solar power system so that it is connected to what comes into your house from the power company. The power companies have it that if the grid goes down, it will take your solar system down also. Then you will be without power also. Make sense to me.

I don't have batteries on the system, so if the power goes off I don't have power any way. It is the law that says solar can't be pumping power back into the grid if the power is off, for safety reasons.

[Spyderjockey]

We can't miss a point we can't read in the lease. Don't be mistaken YOU are paying for the maintenance and replacements. It all sounds OK with a touch of snake oil on the 10% over 20yr loss claim. A lot of variables involved in how long and well a panel works. Are they going to come and clean it too? Imagine a car sitting in the driveway for months or years what would it look like? I find the claims for generation a little high for your part of the country too. What is the average sunlight days number for your location? Unless all panels are pointed south there will be a big difference seasonally the farther north you go. Even if southern pointed it will still lose a lot in the fall and winter. Don't get me wrong I am all for green energy but signing a 20yr lease makes me a little leery considering the longevity of most solar companies in this still developing market. Good Luck with it hope it is all you hope for.

I'm getting a little tired of all the negative comments from you and a couple of others on here.......you make it sound like I'm a sucker and don't have a clue about what's really happening. Some of the comments you guys are making shows me you only have bits and pieces of incomplete information, but you talk like you are experts and know all there is to know about solar energy. I guess you think I'm a complete a$$ or just plain stupid and did no research at all on the subject. Well I am looking forward to the best, even though I can tell some of you are hoping for the worst. Typical human nature, I guess!!