Your opinion on ABS on trikes - good / bad

[sddinnh]

When I was at Americade, I had the chance to talk to most of the major conversion trike builders there. Only one, Hannigan, said they maintain the ABS when they build a trike. The rest said they disable it and that you didn't need it on trikes. This is a premise I tend to dis-agree with. If you need it on 4 wheel cars and 2 wheel bikes, why wouldn't you need it on a trike?

I also had a chance to watch my buddy try to do an emergency stop on his HD trike without ABS. It nearly cost him his life. There was smoke coming off all three tires as he drifted into the other lane while looking at a pickup truck head on. Fortunately he got off the brakes, got his steering back, and got back into his own lane before he could crash. It was a real eye opener for me.

Now, I know the brakes on Spyders are very good and it was one of the reasons why I bought one. I also know there are people out there that say you can stop a vehicle that does not have ABS faster than one with. I'm sure we have people from both camps in this group, so I'd like to hear the pros and cons of ABS as it relates to trikes from you guys. There is no right or wrong, but your opinions may help me make a decision on a future purchase. Thanks for your honest opinions.

[cuznjohn]

ABS is called a control crash. it allows you to steer towards what you want to hit, at first when it first came out in cars i was against it, but now having it on cars and bikes i really started to like it and think it is a plus and should be standard on all vehicles.

[Barlock]

If you need it on 4 wheel cars and 2 wheel bikes, why wouldn't you need it on a trike?

You just hit the nail on the head!

There is no right or wrong, but your opinions may help me make a decision on a future purchase.

Future purchase of what? I thought you already had a Spyder. Are you talking about a purchase of a conventional trike or what?

[Chupaca]

seems they told you that they disabled it on their builds but why..?? Because they felt they didn't need it..?? Cost to much to maintain it..?? Seems to have been an effective vehilcle safety system. If they were building farm equipment I might see it...

[revjvegas]

I was taught that if you are practicing your emergency braking and the ABS kicks in, you're doing it wrong.

In other words, you need to keep practicing to learn where that threshold is so you can maximize your stopping by not losing the friction zone to a point where the ABS has to kick in to regain it.


Just an observation to share. Take from it what you want.

[sddinnh]

Future purchase of what? I thought you already had a Spyder. Are you talking about a purchase of a conventional trike or what?

I do have a 2014 RTL and I'm plenty happy with it, but I haven't ruled out a "conventional" trike in the future. You never know, on the next one maybe I'll stay with the Spyders, maybe I'll move to a 1800 GL based trike. If the Spyders continue to evolve then chances are I'll stick with them, but life has taught me never to close off your options. I was mainly curious why only Hannigan maintained the ABS on their conversions and if there was a good argument against ABS on a trike.

[Bob Denman]

After putting the ABS on my 2010 to the test a couple of times; I wouldn't want to have a trike of ANY sort without it!
They disable it because they don't know how to integrate it with their conversion parts...

[Tango]

When I was at Americade, I had the chance to talk to most of the major conversion trike builders there. Only one, Hannigan, said they maintain the ABS when they build a trike. The rest said they disable it and that you didn't need it on trikes. This is a premise I tend to dis-agree with. If you need it on 4 wheel cars and 2 wheel bikes, why wouldn't you need it on a trike?

.

As far as retaining ABS on trike conversions. CSC was the first to offer it on their trike kits. They sell a proportioning valve for $50 that installs on their kit. Hannigan followed next. As far as the others? They haven't figured it out yet! I think that Mototrike may have it available now also. Tom

[Oldmanzues]

My two cents:
ABS works and works greaqt on any set of wheels. I was also among the "not me" crowd. They did a demo starting on blacktop, then repeated it on wet grass with a two wheeler.
I do disagree with concerning your self when braking in a emergecny by not quite engaging the ABS. Just just put the brakes on hard, let it do its thing, while you look and steer in the direction you what to go.
I was a driving instrutor and some of got to go play on the high speed, wet, confindence course (as they called it) the instrutor could lock one wheel or more and throw you in a skid at 60 MPH and you were supposed to use the ABS and skill to keep from going off the middle of 40 acres of blacktop. It was fun, but to repeat, for me ABS works.
Oldmanzues

[flaggerphil]

ABS is good, period. It gives you the ability to steer when you're hard on the brakes...something you can't do if you lock the brakes up. There's no downside to that.

Don't know why a manufacturer would disable an ABS system...

[BajaRon]

I'd say they don't retain ABS on conversions because of cost and difficulty in properly calibrating it. It's going to take a lot more than just splicing in a few sensors with wire nuts to make it work on a new configuration. And the liability of NOT configuring an ABS system properly is going to be tremendous!

In other words, they'd have it if they could get it but they can't so they say it isn't needed.

The ABS system on the Spyder is a very good one. Probably a bit too far on the 'Safe' side for many of us. But then if you're going to err, it's probably for the best. With all the 1st timers getting into the game it's probably prevented a number of accidents since 2007.

[bikeguy]

Goodyear has a tire testing and proving grounds just north of San Angelo, Texas where they test every aspect of Goodyear tires including wet traction on a skid pad. I've seen them test ABS brakes against the ability of their skid pad test drivers. These are very skilled drivers and none of them were able to equal the stopping distances of OEM ABS brakes, although a few of the better drivers came very close, within a few feet. This is enough proof for me that ABS is worth the money whether on 4 wheels, 3 wheels, or 2 wheels. If a skilled driver in a cage can't equal ABS figures, I highly doubt that a skilled rider on a 2 wheeler or a 3 wheeler can. I think Hannigan is one of the better, if not the best, trike conversion kits there is and that's why they enable ABS brakes when some others don't.

Cotton

[MarkLawson]

I'd say they don't retain ABS on conversions because of cost and difficulty in properly calibrating it. It's going to take a lot more than just splicing in a few sensors with wire nuts to make it work on a new configuration. And the liability of NOT configuring an ABS system properly is going to be tremendous!

In other words, they'd have it if they could get it but they can't so they say it isn't needed.

The ABS system on the Spyder is a very good one. Probably a bit too far on the 'Safe' side for many of us. But then if you're going to err, it's probably for the best. With all the 1st timers getting into the game it's probably prevented a number of accidents since 2007.

Ron nailed it. Taking the ABS from a two-week vehicle and adapting it to a three-wheel vehicle properly likely takes a huge amount of reengineering. I'm sure the liability aspects are daunting.

[Woodsrider]

ABS wins. Doesn't matter how you train, when the deer jumps out in front, you nail the brakes. On a longer distance stop, sure, I remembered my brake modulating and was able to use escape routes. With the deer, the brakes and tires were locked and I had no evasion capability.

[sddinnh]

ABS wins. Doesn't matter how you train, when the deer jumps out in front, you nail the brakes. On a longer distance stop, sure, I remembered my brake modulating and was able to use escape routes. With the deer, the brakes and tires were locked and I had no evasion capability.

That's what happened to my buddy on the HD trike. The two bikes ahead of him had stopped for a left hand turn across traffic and he got caught "sightseeing". When he looked back, he was right on top of the other bikes, he jammed on the brakes and locked them up, and crossed into the oncoming lane. Fortunately he got back off the brakes, got his steering back, and got back into his own lane before he hit the oncoming pickup truck and somehow managed to miss the two stopped bikes. From my position as the next bike behind him (at a good distance) it looked like it could have gotten real bad, real fast.

So that got me thinking about the comments like "Oh it's a trike, you don't need ABS on a trike because they have 3 wheels" from some of the trike conversion guys. I didn't try to argue with them, I simply took it all in and kept my thoughts to my self, but I was wondering if there was any truth to that.

[Fabricater]

ABS is better.The only situation I know of ,it it's better to be without ,is on gravel,and that may not be the case on a bike.The gravel can build up in front of the tires and help stop a car,and maybe a trike.ABS won't allow the gravel to build up.I have practiced emergency stops a lot over the years and competed in bike rodeos.Stoping distance it measured in the rodeos.I was able to stop a non ABS bike in a little under 11ft at 20 mph.A friend could stop his with ABS in 7 ft.Both bikes were 02 goldwings.I can say the practice paid off last fall.A deer ran in front of me that I seen to late,probably my fault I did not see it.I was 2 up.I did not slide a wheel or loose control of the bike.I squeezed the brakes hard,but could not stop.Seems like things were in slow motion.Just before impact I released the brake,Rolled the throttle slightly after impact and went on our way.The deer was slipping on the pavement and was very low to the road.The engine cage struck it in the head,Killed the deer,but I had no damage to the bike,I still can't believe how there was no damage.The key was the tires did not slide and I was able to stay up right and react as needed.After the tires start to slide a rider is mostly out of control and limited on what they can do when things go bad.

[sledmaster]

I can testify that we want ABS on our Spyders. Back (in 2001) when we were riding the original prototypes that were Ski-Doo REV snowmobiles with wheels instead of skis and a swing arm instead of a skid frame, the machines did not have ABS (or VSS) and we could do some crazy stuff with them. Having ABS and VSS is the primary advantage, IMO, as we can "panic brake" while in a corner and maintain directional control, where most bikes would have great difficulty in the same situation. The two technologies really do exist and interact together quite well.

ABS, along with VSS, DPS and TCS are the technological advantages to the Spyder over the other open air vehicles and are pretty much the only way the Spyder made it to production. Without these technologies, the Spyder would most likely not exist. But the funny thing is, nobody else has really made a machine to compete with it yet. If you look at the Spyder patent, one of the best protected elements is the front trunk. Others can build a three-wheel machine, none can give it a trunk like the Spyder.

I have hit a couple of deer on snowmobile at high speed, and being able to mash the single brake lever on a Spyder has saved my butt more than once, so I am very happy to have ABS. Your bigger worry is often the vehicle behind you (not being able to stop as quickly) instead of the deer you just missed!

For a conversion company to say they don't need ABS is likely their defending what they are doing. It is fairly difficult and expensive to be done correctly.

[Jccjr50]

It is my understanding when the California highway patrol went to abs on their motorcycles, they had over a 30% drop in accidents. This change took place several years ago. I will not have a bike or trike with out abs and I am covinced that abs has saved my butt a few times.

[cptjam]

If a vehicle has ABS, and then someone disables it to make a trike, I question that manufacturer. Cycle world magazine had the opportunity to test a bike with abs. The rider was a professional racer. They turned it off for him to see how he could do. They turned it on, had a regular rider try it. The regular guy stopped shorter every time! ABS rocks!

[MRH]

When I was taking a riding class (StreetMasters - we were about 50/50 Spyders/2-wheels in that class), they had us hit the brakes as hard as possible to get comfortable with the ABS - it really worked.

[bluestratos]

I have had my ABS save my butt many times, both in my 4 wheels and my Spyder.

[Dan_Ashley]

High speed pursuit training without ABS: I tended to smash into things that shoul not have been smashed into.

Same me training with ABS: I didn't smash into anything.

In times of panic or high adrenalin people tend to over react. Mashing down too hard on the brake pedal is a normal reaction--even for highly trained performance drivers. ABS prevents that human tendency from turning into a crash. Trike, bike, cage, and truck ABS systems react faster than a human can. By the time a human realizes he has lost traction in a skid, the ABS has already corrected the problem. Trike manufacturers that do not install ABS systems are creating needless risk for their customers.

[Can-Am Poogs]

I love posts like this one. I get to offer my opinion as a collision reconstructionist, and here it is. I would tell you it's a balance between what you are used to versus what is actually better and safer technology. Motorcycle riders are categorized into three groups. Novice, intermediate, and experienced drivers. What an experienced driver can do while operating a motorcycle, an novice rider can't even come close to. Intermediate drivers are as the term suggests, somewhere in the middle. The majority of us, unless we have done some track driving are intermediate drivers. It has nothing to do with how long we have ridden a bike, it is all about how far you are capable or able to push the limits of your motorcycle's capabilities. When we are younger and less aware of our own mortality and we are riding all of the time are our crotch rockets, we develop those experiences which get us close to the experienced rider categories. As most of us get older, we become wiser and take less risk, maybe even some of us switch to cruisers and tour bikes. This tends to pull us back more to the middle ground of being an intermediate rider. I am 45 years old, right smack dab in the middle, so please don't think I am favouring one age group of riders over the others. I am also not trying to say older riders are this and younger drivers are that. You just have to watch the Isle of Mann street race to recognize there are exceptions to being a senior experienced rider. So all this reading and where am I going with this? If your a senior rider, you have likely driven everything under the sun without abs. If you are one of my teenage sons, you don't want to ride a bike without abs. Just speaking to braking a lone my teenagers are novice riders on an motorcycle with conventional braking. On an abs bike the are expert riders. Ask them what threshold braking is and prepare to laugh at the answer. They don't have a clue. They just want to be able to apply the brakes as hard or as soft as the want to. They don't know the dangers of rear wheel lock up on a motorcycle like we do. If the majority of your time has been on a conventional braking motorcycle, then that what your experience is, so a three wheel motorcycle like a hd shouldn't be a new experience to you as long as you understand how the brakes work. On a three wheel HD the foot brake actuates the rear and front brakes. But not like our can ams. You still have to use the hand brake which actuates the front tire brake only. I suggest if you want to operate a three wheel HD the learning curve on the brakes is high, because it is not like any sort of braking we are used to. So to step on a bike like that most of us regardless of our years of experience riding are all novices and can't rely on our past motorcycle experience to get us through it. Two wheel conventional braking rear tire lock up is bad. Rear tire wants to lead, so the back of the bike articulates around the forks of the bike, until you let off the rear brake. Don't let up and you get high sided, let off too late the rear end of the bike articulates to the opposite side and the high side is violent and never to be forgotten or forgiven. A three wheel with conventional braking is the weirdest thing ever. Unlike your two wheel bike that requires forward motion to stay upright and the forces are gyroscopic, a three wheel motorcycle is more like a car and it's behaviour in a collision is relevant to its vertical and horizontal centre of mass. A three wheel motorcycle with conventional braking is going to spin like a top around itself during an improper braking situation, which is more likely to occurs in a panic stop situation. On dry asphalt you are more likely to stop safely if you don't hit anything first, possibly tip at the very end of the stop. On wet pavement it will be like a ride at the county fare. Your less likely to tip depending on how your loaded, but you aren't going to stop spinning until you come to a stop. So what it comes down to is how much effort are you willing to put into breaking all your old habits of braking on a two wheel non conventional or abs braking, or Spyder braking to learn how to brake a HD three wheel. Because if you fall back on you old habits and training like most of us do in a panic situation you are screwed. If you are going to ride a three wheel HD, you a likely better of if you have zero riding experience so the habits you learn are specific to that bike, or you better prepared to log a lot of travel miles and put in lots of practice time to operating it safe. I have a 2012 Spyder RTS. I looked at buying a HD three wheel. As soon as they said no ABS, I walked away. I will wait for them to come out with an ABS model. Won't trade the Spyder for anything, for some reason just fascinated by three wheel bikes. I hate to say this but when it comes to two wheels in the back I would go Honda over HD. Unfortunate for me in Canada the three wheel Honda dealer is 3 Days away and 3 wheelers can't be imported to Canada. Hope I answered your question. Sorry for being to thorough, I just wanted everyone to understand the inherent dangers in a three wheel non abs motorcycle, two wheels in the back. Stick with the Spyder for now. They are the safest production made three wheelers in my opinion. Cheers.



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[bluestratos]

Way too long of a paragraph for this old fart to follow, can you break it down and maybe just cover the main points?

Thanks

[Dan_Ashley]

...Stick with the Spyder for now. They are the safest production made three wheelers in my opinion. ....

thanks for your post. I learned something.