Results of Amsoil 10W-40 lab test @ 4000 Mi

[Jeriatric]

"The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use."

Hope you find the read worth your time.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm .

If the professors study has merit and fresh oil shears at the rate he states. Wouldn't 50w become 40w in short order. One would think so. Based on his year long study.

[DrewNJ]

Not to toss a wrench in the works, but the couple that just posted hitting 100k miles said they ran BRP oil and had no issues, expecting many more miles.

PK

Doesn't surprise me at all. The BRP oil debate has also been beat to death on some of the Seadoo forums where the motors get run considerably harder than any spyder. Most of the high hour machines are mostly run on BRP oil.
I think BRP has it figured out. However, people are always over thinking oil on probably ly every platform.

[Ed_H]

I wonder if spyder brp oil is relabeled Shell. Just found this decade old collaboration between Shell and Rotax.

http://www.shell.com/global/products...e06052014.html

Of course, this is aero stuff but the brp/rotax/shell connection may be there. Just food for thought.

[ulflyer]

I started this thread simply to report the results of a lab test on the 1330ACE motor. I think I've made it clear that I'm not trying to convince anyone to use any particular oil or when to change it. Honestly folks, I really don't care.

What I am doing is to let those who are interested in oil know how it has performed for me and what FACTS I have gathered. If you are not interested, don't read about it.

I enjoy trying different brands of oil and searching for what works best in my machines. I've done a lot of lab tests for my satisfaction. The big question in my mind is WHEN IS OIL TOO THIN? I know for a FACT that certain oils will thin down to 20 weight in 2000 miles. At 4000 its much much less. Is this too thin? Does it matter?

Perhaps not, if you go by anecdotal reports. I simply don't know.

I leave it to each person to decide what makes them happy.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Back when the Spyder was first introduced BRP stated " you had to use FULL SYNTHETIC OIL " or the Spyder would self destruct ...I am overstating this .......However now without any major modifications to the engine metallurgy you can safely use " BLENDED OIL " ...WTF ....was BRP yanking our chain then...or ...now ? ? ?.....................I'd really like to know your thoughts on this one.......Thanks Mike

[ulflyer]

Back when the Spyder was first introduced BRP stated " you had to use FULL SYNTHETIC OIL " or the Spyder would self destruct ...I am overstating this .......However now without any major modifications to the engine metallurgy you can safely use " BLENDED OIL " ...WTF ....was BRP yanking our chain then...or ...now ? ? ?.....................I'd really like to know your thoughts on this one.......Thanks Mike

BK, I don't think they were being devious, but perhaps just not so informed as we'd like to think engineers, and maybe the public relations types, should be. Many of us, too, used to firmly believe that synthetic oil is the only thing worth using.
More and more the oil company's have begun refining dino products to a much higher degree than just a few years ago, to the point that they almost match synthetic for longevity.

Indeed, much of our so called "synthetic" is highly refined dino oil with a base stock of synthetic additives. Theres not really many pure synthetic (that is, no dino oil involved) oils out there anymore. If you notice, more and more auto makers are leaning towards a dino/syn blend now, as is BRP.

To my way of thinking, based on lab tests I've done and many hundreds of tests others have done, nearly all motorcycles with shared gear/clutch boxes will significantly shear the oil down from a 40W in the first 2-3000 miles. As I mentioned in previous posts, how thin is too thin?

Most bike makers, other than BRP, allow use of 20w-50, at least in warm weather. This weight holds up very well to 4K or more without adverse shearing. I'd like to know why Rotax motors can't use the same weight oil.

As several posters have already said, if you want to be safe, change it every 3-4K miles. I expect I will do just that with filter changes every other time. I'm still in the testing phase, hoping to find an oil that I'm comfortable using for 4K. With my '11, I added some 20-50 to the 10-40 and got good results, but again, that's going against BRP recommendations and if you have an oil related problem, you might be up the creek. With 4 years warranty on the '14, I don't want to do anything to void that warranty.

I've never used BRP blended oil, but have used Castrol blend that some say makes the BRP oil. Don't have any facts to prove that tho. I did use, and test, the Castrol and it didn't work out very well at all. I'd like to see a lab test done on the BRP, especially by those who have run it for extended miles as suggested by BRP. Would be real curious to see what the viscosity is. Email Blackstone Lab and they will send you a free sample kit. Return it with $25 for the test.

BTW, I've done a lot to talking about viscosity, but the lab reports tell you a lot about how the motor is wearing and can give you a heads up if there appears to be wear issues, or water/fuel in the oil, etc. Viscosity is just one of many items checked.

[sddinnh]

We all learn as we go along. It is part of human nature to take something basic and keep improving it and moving it forward.

[ulflyer]

ulflyer, I would not be offended by any posts here. My mention of the BRP oil was not focused at anyone, or any machine, simply that it worked for them. As for oil samples, they are exactly as you posted and so often get open to debate.

On the aircraft, I have seen samples over the years when the oil drained out metallic into the bucket yet the sample was good. Other engines had great looking drains and based on one metal being too much, they told us with certainty what part was failing.

Me personally, I was being lazy. Always ran M1 in my daily driver Nissan and Tacoma pickups, ran M1 in the wifes Corrolla. Based on how clean the inside of the rocker area is when I refill the oil, I decided it would be good for the Spyder.

BITOB topics and posts get crazy heated...Sometimes I would like to suggest that the people use the drain oil to preserve their chassis and bodywork, since they will have a great engine.

I would love to see all your results on a sheet, just for easy comparison.

PK

PK, no offense taken....didn't mean to make it sound that way. Actually, I'd like to hear from others who have put a lot of miles on, say 50-75K, and how their motor is faring.

If you want just the viscosity numbers reported by the lab (cSt 100c) I can list the numbers for five tests I did with the '11 and one test on the '14. You'll need to take the numbers and compare them on a viscosity chart to get the viscosity range. One of the the tests was too bad to even list a number as the oil had apparently been diluted with gas from the malfunctioning throttle body. All oils were Jaso MA2. Where I used a quart of 20-50, I used the same for topping off.

Test, miles on bike,miles on sample,type oil, cSt 100c,Lab

1 11400 3000 Amsoil10-40 11.4 "caution"
2 15000 3000 Amsoil 10-40/qt20-50 13.1 "normal"
3 19120 3000 Valvoline 10-40 11.6 "caution"
4 23024 3024 Amsoil 10-40 TB dilution....... " Severe"
5 27256 3256 Amsoil 10-40/qt20-50 13.7 "normal"
6 31000 2000 Castrol 10-40 11.1 "caution"

test on 1330

1 6700 4000 Amsoil 10-40 10.6 "caution"

Viscosity Chart
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

....Wow, ulflyer, and PMK, we all have 2014 White RT - Se's..................so what type of oil are you both using ? ? ?, after following this thread I am leaning towards the Rotella 5w-40....full syn ( T - 6 ? ).......any thoughts ........I know it's also " SM " but from what I've read ...that's OK in the 1330 ACE .......Mikeguyver

[ulflyer]

We are dealing with a modern 4t engine with a shared gearbox oil.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Based on the chart, and your results, while the lab is cautioning, the chart as I see it still has your 100 cST values not bad for either the engine or gearbox. The engine oil is still falling within a typical 30 wt, and the gear oil properties are 80 to 85 wt. Both of these would seem to be about what is purchased for new fluids. Straight 30 is not uncommon of an acceptable oil range for many engines. If you check the gear oil on a 2t race bike, they call out around an 80 wt.

When I am building or tuning high suspension, there is a lot of focus on the 40c cST. The charts, will show huge swings of true viscosity for the same "weight" fluid.

In regards to the reports that you had done, did they also include an analysis of metals and contaminants? Those trends can be the ones to really watch, but you must be pretty much locked in with one lab, so they can compare each test to note trends.

For grins, do you have the ability to run the same oil in another engine, say a lawnmower, or better still a constantly run engine such as a pump or generator.

PK

Thanks for the feedback. The cautioning occurred at 3000 miles and while not bad at that point, if run on to 4000-4500 which BRP specified it would be down in very low 30 or even 20 weight, especially the Castrol (which was done at 2000K).

The 1330 test at 4000K was way down in the 30W block; cannot imagine running it to 9000 or more as BRP specifies.

The reports all contain metals, contaminants, and additives, as well as TBN. The test kits are by WIX and the lab ALS. I have several kits left and after another test or two on the 1330 I'll probably hold off on any more till it gets on up in miles.

I replaced the Amsoil on the 1330 with Rotella T, 15-40 (Jaso MA2), and will test it at 2000. Only got about 500 on it so it will be awhile before I get to 2K, what with hot WX and no trips planned.

Unfortunately, I don't have any other engines other than autos.

[ulflyer]

....Wow, ulflyer, and PMK, we all have 2014 White RT - Se's..................so what type of oil are you both using ? ? ?, after following this thread I am leaning towards the Rotella 5w-40....full syn ( T - 6 ? ).......any thoughts ........I know it's also " SM " but from what I've read ...that's OK in the 1330 ACE .......Mikeguyver

Mike, I'm still trying various brands, but most likely will settle on Amsoil. Its a good solid, proven product and I haven't found anything better. Its been my "go to" oil for many years. My second choice synthetic would be Valvoline, readily available at Walmart. I never tried Mobil 1 as it used to be only Jaso MA, but I believe someone said earlier that its now MA2. If so, I'm sure its a good oil.

Never tried the 5-40 but some on BITOG with shared sump motors have not had good results. The further apart the numbers the quicker it shears.

Bottom line, It dont' matter much what you use if you change it often enough. That number is going to be no more than 4000 for me, maybe less, depending on what oil I settle on. With the 1330 oil filter good for 9K, you only have to change it every other time which makes for a really easy oil change when you only have to dump the oil and not pull tupperware.

[Jeriatric]

What do the rotax engineers who designed and factored for oil shear know that we don't know? Something tells me...a lot.

They for sure know what vescosity to start off with. What it will shear to, and when. Based on all kinds of scenarios....heat, high RPM's, filtering etc. Just to name a few.

While we all want the best. My gut tells me they have a handle on what they recommend and why. jm2c

[ulflyer]

Safe to assume, there was no abnormal amounts of wear items.

I about fainted when I read 9600 miles on a gearbox oil using a multi weight engine oil. After some thought, for us, it is unlikely we will see but 5k per year. So one or two oil and filter changes per year is my guess for us. (Probably a tire also).

PK

You're right about wear items. All very normal, in fact, lower than the 998 motor in its early stages. Iron 14, copper 5, aluminum 10. All others were <1.

[ulflyer]

What do the rotax engineers who designed and factored for oil shear know that we don't know? Something tells me...a lot.

They for sure know what vescosity to start off with. What it will shear to, and when. Based on all kinds of scenarios....heat, high RPM's, filtering etc. Just to name a few.

While we all want the best. My gut tells me they have a handle on what they recommend and why. jm2c

For sure, follow your gut. Thats what I'm doing also.