ROAD FORCE BALANCING FOR A SMOOTH RIDE

[Guzzi]

Had this done to my front tires on my 2014RTL, and finally got a good smooth set of Kenda's after this procedure. IMHO this is the only way to go with tire balancing. http://www.hunter.com/balancer/roadforce/4159t.pdf You can check your local tire stores and see who has the equipment. Worth every penny to have this done.

[PMK]

Had this done to my front tires on my 2014RTL, and finally got a good smooth set of Kenda's after this procedure. IMHO this is the only way to go with tire balancing. http://www.hunter.com/balancer/roadforce/4159t.pdf You can check your local tire stores and see who has the equipment. Worth every penny to have this done.

Thanks for the link.

Curious about the weights they placed on the wheels. If you have a look, or maybe know, did they use weights on the rim centerline, or did they place weights in two places. One located along the rims inside edge, and the other located along the outside edge.

I used the Hunter website to "find a dealer". Ironically, where the wife works is listed as having this machine for balancing. Need to have her check if they will do our wheel assemblies, since they are more into servicing the company projects rather than the general public.

Really curious about he weight placement.

All this makes perfect sense since the Spyder is more car than motorcycle in regards to the design of the front suspension and so forth.

PK

[gypsy_100]

Thanks for the link.

Curious about the weights they placed on the wheels. If you have a look, or maybe know, did they use weights on the rim centerline, or did they place weights in two places. One located along the rims inside edge, and the other located along the outside edge.

PK

Imbalance has two components -- "hop" and "wobble". Hop is a heavy area around the circumference which would make the wheel hop up and down. Wobble is a side-to-side imbalance that makes the wheel wobble back and forth. By definition, BRP's recommendation of putting all the weights in a single row will only solve hop problems, not wobble. It's amazing that they perform as well as they do.

I developed a vibration on my 2011RT that wouldn't go away with dealer rebalancing. I pulled the front wheels and took them to my favorite auto shop and had them balanced. Weights on the inner edge and the outer edge. Result -- perfect smoothness. Better than it had ever been. That's the only way to cure wobble. Now with the 2010-2012's, you need to be very careful about clearance of the weights. We used really thin stick-on weights. The outer weights (just behind the spokes) clear the brake caliper but it is comfortably close. A thicker weight would hit the caliper. I still have more clearance than my Acura automobile with it's large rotors and calipers stuffed inside the wheel so I feel it's OK. But you need to be very careful and check the clearance carefully. The 15" wheels on the '13's and '14's are obviously no problem. Lots of clearance.

The fronts continued to perform perfectly until I wore them out. I bought new ones (Kenda) and took them to the auto shop for their initial balancing. Perfect. I've got about 10K on them now and they remain as smooth as can be.

While Hunter Roadforce is fine, you don't need that brand name. Any good-quality automotive dynamic balance as done for regular automotive wheels is what it takes. Just check the clearance and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it. The author assumes no responsibility for damaged calipers. (!)

[Guzzi]

Road force balancing goes way beyond normal spin balance, as it also matches the heavy tire spots with the rim to compensate for both vertical wheel hop and side wobble under load. It will also ferret out a bad or marginal quality tire before it ever gets mounted on your machine. With normal balance you don't know what you've got until their on the machine and you go down the road, and it does nothing to help wobble from radial tire runout. Road force is worth it in many ways, and is clearly superior to normal spin balance. Most tire dealers will not remove your wheels, so you must take your wheels and tires to them. Insurance limitations, they say. You gets what you pay for, so why not get the best. IMHO

[rabtech]

I have been using Road Force Balancing on all my Mercedes for as long as they have had a Hunter machine in Alabama. It is the nobly way to get a 295mm wide tire and 21" rim balanced. And what I have found over the years is that you will be surprised how many BAD tires are put on cars every day. I have been thru several Pirelli and Continental tires. They alway ask how I know its bad and as soon as I mention the Road Force machine they don't ask any more questions.

[Guzzi]

Thanks for the link.

Curious about the weights they placed on the wheels. If you have a look, or maybe know, did they use weights on the rim centerline, or did they place weights in two places. One located along the rims inside edge, and the other located along the outside edge.

I used the Hunter website to "find a dealer". Ironically, where the wife works is listed as having this machine for balancing. Need to have her check if they will do our wheel assemblies, since they are more into servicing the company projects rather than the general public.

Really curious about he weight placement.

All this makes perfect sense since the Spyder is more car than motorcycle in regards to the design of the front suspension and so forth.

PK

In my case the stickon weights went on the far inner lip of the rim on both wheels. 1/2 oz on the right side and 3/4 oz on the left side. The Hunter machine computer told the operator exactly where to put the weights on the wheels for optimal balance. If you really read up on the features of Road Force balancing in my link, it doesn't take long to see the advantages. By the way, the final force load balance is done after the tire heavy spot is re-positioned on its wheel as per the computer.

[BikerDoc]

Historically motorcycle dealers have only static balanced tires and not dynamic balanced them since they are so narrow.. Of course that is not the case with Spyders which have tires more like cars. This is being recognized by BRP and select dealers including ours Central Florida Powersports, now Dynamic Balance all Spyder tires, having just recently added equipment to do so in house

[PMK]

Very well, I have my own balancer, not road force, but a very good dynamic balancer. I'll pull the fronts and balance them this weekend.

PK

[SpyderAnn01]

Just curious how many weights did you guys have on the factory Kendas on your 2014? Did you have a few on one wheel and a ton on the other?

[AbNormy]

Mine had excessive weights in one spot on both factory Kendas, @ 23k I bought Futuras 80k warranty higher speed rating@ PepBoys took them back to have the balance rechecked, slight wobble @ 41 mph, when they were on the machine both rims showed to be out of round and I've not run over any curbs maybe a chuck hole between here & Co, or Mo, or NC..Wondering how many come from the factory like that? Anybody else have this happen to them?
He spread the weights out as best he could but didn't guarantee theyd balance any better without replacing the wheels. Got the RPMOne warranty, now I just gotta haggle with the dealer. Hope theyre covered.


Living the dream while I still can!

[PMK]

Ours has a lot of weights in one place on both front wheels.

It will be interesting to see if the wheels are not true and have runout up and down. I have wondered, but not tried yet, to see if the centering cone on my balancer will taper small enough for the Spyder front wheel center bore. Obviously, if the wheel is placed on the balancer without a centering cone, it will have vertical runout. Possibly to fit some automotive machines, the tech removes the cone without considering this.

I hope to have time to balance our wheels this weekend when I get home. It will be interesting to see how well they were done at oem, and see how much better they might get.

When I bought weights, it was not a planned thing to cure the slight wobble felt in the bars, rather, I wondered why BRP used silver weights on a black rim. Plan initally was to remove oem silver weights then install black weights.

Time will tell.

PK

[bill pitman]

About 2 years ago I contacted Hunter about a problem with vibration
in my '09 Spyder GS.
I spoke with a Rep. from the Allentown, Pa .
He offered to take a look and see what could be done.
My wife and I went down to the Hunter Training facility and spent about 3 hours with this helpful person.
The end result- a smoother more vibration-free ride!
I also went online and later bought a round mounting plate. It is needed so that the small/ oddly shaped wheel hub can be mounted on the machine. I have not had to use it yet, as the front tires are still OK with 22,000 miles and looking good for about 5-8,000 more.
When time comes for mounting new tires, I will go to the Firestone dealer in Newton,NJ as they have a Road Force machine.

Bill

[billybovine]

About 2 years ago I contacted Hunter about a problem with vibration
in my '09 Spyder GS.
I spoke with a Rep. from the Allentown, Pa .
He offered to take a look and see what could be done.
My wife and I went down to the Hunter Training facility and spent about 3 hours with this helpful person.
The end result- a smoother more vibration-free ride!
I also went online and later bought a round mounting plate. It is needed so that the small/ oddly shaped wheel hub can be mounted on the machine. I have not had to use it yet, as the front tires are still OK with 22,000 miles and looking good for about 5-8,000 more.
When time comes for mounting new tires, I will go to the Firestone dealer in Newton,NJ as they have a Road Force machine.

Bill

I am interested in the mounting plate you are talking about. Since every shop near me do not have the correct adapter pieces to make the front rims fit on a dynamic balancer. One shop did it by mounting the rim backwards and putting pieces of cardboard in between to protect the paint. I did not like that. I was thinking of getting a custom plate made, but getting a one off part made gets pricey.

So I ask where did you get the plate you bought? How much? Do you have pictures you could share with us?
Thanks.

[PMK]

Found some time to tinker around with this wheel balancing situation today.

Jacked and removed the right front wheel assembly. Mounted the asembly onto the balancer and checked for radial runout, lateral runout and balance as delivered from BRP.

Right front on our machine had a balance that was spot on at 0.0 weight needed, overall the rim was machined true to the flange, and the tire also had no appreciable runout.

I removed the oem weights, set up the machine to accomplish a true dynamic balance with weights on both edges of the wheel. A quick spin and new black weights were installed. Balanced back to 0.0.

Remounted the wheel and removed the left front.

As I accomplished on the right front, I checked the everything as delivered. First off, the balancer showed a 1.0 oz imbalance. The wheel ran true to the flange. The tire could be seen with a definite wobble, and slight vertical runout. So in summary this seems to be a crappy tire on a decent rim, and the entire works was out of balance.

Without removing and repositioning the tire, I decided to simply remove the oem weights and rebalance the assembly. The assembly balanced easily.

I reinstalled the left front.

Torqued all the wheel nuts and we went for a ride.

During the ride, I was able to get up to 60,set the cruise and took my hands off the bars. No shaking of the bars, so the effort paid off.

My machine is not a road force but a Snap On that always gets good comments from tire guys.

Overall, I got it to work, but certainly do not like that wobbly tire. Might remove and remount it to see if it helps. It should be warrantied, but doubt they will.

PK

[bill pitman]

I am interested in the mounting plate you are talking about. Since every shop near me do not have the correct adapter pieces to make the front rims fit on a dynamic balancer. One shop did it by mounting the rim backwards and putting pieces of cardboard in between to protect the paint. I did not like that. I was thinking of getting a custom plate made, but getting a one off part made gets pricey.

So I ask where did you get the plate you bought? How much? Do you have pictures you could share with us?
Thanks.

The following is information from 2011, when I worked on a vibration issue with my '09 GS:

They are emails between myself and Doug Wolverton of Hunter Engineering.
The parts I purchased are listed and not cheap. However, when I put new tires on, I,ve got what's needed to do the job!

Bill

""

Re: Hunter.com: Contact Us Information Request (Sales)
Bill, Sorry for the delay but once I get it set aside, it's hard to reel it back in with my schedule. The cost of the truck cone adapter kit would be difficult for you to justify at $802.00. Since you only need one part of it to use as a backing plate, you could use item # 46-562-2, which is the spacer component and it would cost you $298.00 plus UPS. The low taper cone is really very common on many balancers but if you wanted one of them also, it is $61.10. If interested, let me know and I can have our local service rep order one or both in for you.
Regards,
Doug W.



On Aug 21, 2011, at 5:55 PM, wpitman56@verizon.net wrote:

Doug,

What would it cost me to purchase the following: low-taper cone#192-51-2, wheel spacer # 46-562-2( is this what we used as the backing plate?),

pressure ring#223-68-1
I'm thinking this might be the smart thing to do, then there's no question about the shop having the needed parts! It would then come down to using, proper procedures and the technician's level of expertise.

I posted your comments.
Thanks,

Bill

On 08/21/11, Douglas Woolverton<dougwool@aol.com> wrote:Bill, Feel free to post the following on your CanAm Spyder forum. I should have taken a couple pictures of the cone & adapter setup we used!


Additional information that may be beneficial to others seeking a vibration-free ride with the use of Hunter's GSP9700 Road Force Balancer:


Hunter has a web site to locate shops that have 9700s (www.gsp9700.com) whereby you can enter a zip code and search around that area. You will not be able to know if the shop has sent technicians to Hunter's advanced "Rolling Smooth" training and you will not know if they have the adapters needed to mount and center the Spyder wheels on the unit. On the other hand, using the necessary adapters and procedure below isn't really advanced skill level.
Adapters utilized: #20-1929-1, Medium Duty Truck cone kit (see page 9 of Hunter Accessory Brochure) was needed as we used half of this two piece kit to establish a backing plate area on the balancer's hub that would accommodate the Spyder's small flat wheel surface. Without this, it would likely be a crap shoot to properly mount it with any other adapter pieces. #192-51-2, Smallest low taper cone (see page 11 of Hunter Accessory Brochure) was then used from the outside to center the wheel. With this "outside cone" set up it is also necessary to use the standard accessory #223-68-1, Pressure Ring with the wing nut (see page 6 of Hunter Accessory Brochure).


Procedure used:
1) Quick Check balancer calibration
2) Perform Centering Check on first assembly to insure the adapter set up was accurate and repeatable
3) Used SmartWeight mode, standard on all late model GSP9700s & older ones that have been updated

4) Reduced SmartWeight balance tolerances with a simple ccw turn of the GSPs knob

5) Insured that all tire pressures were consistent throughout processes (we used 20psi)
6) If tire to wheel matching is needed, best to use the "Measure Bare Rim" mode on the 9700 as the outer flange of the Spyder wheel is not suitable for an accurate measurement
7) Used tape weights and two plane "Spoke" mode to locate outer plane weights behind wheel spokes-out of sight


The vibration sensitivity of the Spyder isn't known (many car companies publish their maximum road force variation limits) but we were able to get one down to three pounds and the other down to seven pounds and this is solved my vibrations along with a good SmartWeight balance. Consequently, if you can get the roadforce variation into single digits you're likely going to also experience my success.

---

On Aug 20, 2011, at 11:41 PM, wpitman56@verizon.net wrote:

Thanks

bill



On 08/20/11, Douglas Woolverton<dougwool@aol.com> wrote:Bill, Glad to help and glad to hear we smoothed it out! I'll drop you another note sometime with some details of what accessories & settings we used.
Doug



On Aug 20, 2011, at 10:32 PM, wpitman56@verizon.net wrote:

Doug,
I was just logging on to email to post the following:



Good News!!

Originally Posted by bill pitman
Background: I had a post in June relating to: "Check your ball joints!" Even tho the ball joints have play, I wasn't convinced that that was the main cause of my "front-end" vibration issue. As I stated in previous posts, I started to research wheel balancing and vibration control.
Hunter Engineering Co. , builds wheel balancer/vibration control systems(GSP9700), tire changers and 4-wheel alignment machines. I had emailed a representative and after several days I DID get a response!
Doug Woolverton, Northeast Division Manager of Hunter Engineering offered to meet with me in Lansdale,Pa. Hunter has a training facility there with various pieces of equipment (wheel balancer/vibration control machine, tire changers, alignment rack...).

So today, Doug, Gretchen and myself spent 2 1/2 hrs working on the wheels/tires of our Spyder. I had taken the wheels off the Spyder and spent Sunday night in Quakertown. The Hunter GSP9700 system has the ability to not only balance the wheel/tire assembly ,but to simulate a road test,using their "RoadForce" technology software. "RoadForce" allows you to not only balance the wheel/tire ,but to match the wheel/tire to help control/see the "spring-force" associated with the assembly. Hunter's website has great written info and videos which explain the concept.
It's been raining all day,so haven't done any road tests yet. I'll post good news, I hope. If not the quest will continue!

I wanted folks to know there are people and companies out there that will help work out problems. Sometimes it takes time ,but eventually things do get worked out.

Bill Pitman





8/20/11
Finally, after some delays(rain,bad back), I was able to get the wheels back on the Spyder.
The left wheel/tire had been "Roadforce" tested and then the tire rotated on the rim to match the machine recommendation. No weights were needed and the final "Road Force Measurement(spring force)" was 7lbs.
The right wheel/tire was "rotated and matched" and 1oz of weight added behind one of the 3 spokes & 1/4oz at back edge of rim. Spring Force was a very good 3 lbs.
RESULTS: Handlebar and console "vibration" is gone. There is no more vibration in the 58-67mph area, like I had previously. No issues up to 85mph.

Bill



Doug, I again want to thank you for your help in resolving our problem. Hope all is well and if I can do anything for you, let me know.
Visit Spyderlovers.com and look for replies.

Bill & Gretchen Pitman """""


5-18-14, Hope this answer some poeple's questions,

Bill

[ulflyer]

I am interested in the mounting plate you are talking about. Since every shop near me do not have the correct adapter pieces to make the front rims fit on a dynamic balancer. One shop did it by mounting the rim backwards and putting pieces of cardboard in between to protect the paint. I did not like that. I was thinking of getting a custom plate made, but getting a one off part made gets pricey.

So I ask where did you get the plate you bought? How much? Do you have pictures you could share with us?
Thanks.

Is a "dynamic balancer the type most tire shops have; the ones with a hood and slow spin? I was under the (false?) impression that the RT front tires could easily be balanced on these, but you're saying most/all do not have the correct adapter piece?

Was planning on having mine checked, but am now uncertain.

[billybovine]

Is a "dynamic balancer the type most tire shops have; the ones with a hood and slow spin? I was under the (false?) impression that the RT front tires could easily be balanced on these, but you're saying most/all do not have the correct adapter piece?

Was planning on having mine checked, but am now uncertain.

I don't know if you have looked closely at a balancer backing plate but it is bowl shaped. The outer rim is the only part that is machined flat and contacts the rim. The problem is that the diameter of our hubs are too small and go inside the bowl instead of contacting the machined surface. I have found a Hunter accessories catalog online and I think this is the optional plate that is needed for our wheels.

balancer plate.jpg

Now if you can find a shop with one of those it should work.
I was also thinking about getting my own plate made. Since it does not have to be universal it would just be a steel donut with three holes matching our bolt pattern and press in three studs. That way I can go to any shop I choose.

PS. Some folks have reported that shops that can do Smart car wheels can do ours.

[PMK]

I don't know if you have looked closely at a balancer backing plate but it is bowl shaped. The outer rim is the only part that is machined flat and contacts the rim. The problem is that the diameter of our hubs are too small and go inside the bowl instead of contacting the machined surface. I have found a Hunter accessories catalog online and I think this is the optional plate that is needed for our wheels.

balancer plate.jpg

Now if you can find a shop with one of those it should work.
I was also thinking about getting my own plate made. Since it does not have to be universal it would just be a steel donut with three holes matching our bolt pattern and press in three studs. That way I can go to any shop I choose.

PS. Some folks have reported that shops that can do Smart car wheels can do ours.

If you machine your own plate, I believe the bore is 28mm but check to be sure. Also, if you are pressing studs, consider that the spacer needs to be absolutely flat on the faces and parallel to prevent wobbles AND the spacer must be counterbored to receive the heads of the wheel studs. Maybe you are considering threaded studs which require no counterbore, but will require some very aligned drilling and tapping. Not demanding this is how it must be done, rather sharing some concerns that may arise.

Apparently, I am fortunate that the drive cup on the balancer I own is small enough to work with no adapter. I was worried at first and was scoping out my adjustable adapter similar to the one shown with legs and studs, possibly setting it up for 3 hole wheels.

As I said, no doubt road force would be best if done correctly. However without going crazy I obtained balance and no shakes in the bars, with a proper dynamic balance (and added corrected the factory mistake of 1.0 oz of needed weights).

All the best with it.

PK

[Questions]

how about the beads

[Guzzi]

how about the beads

Tried em first, but with Kenda's only the Road Force method worked for me, and wth, $30 for ride on or $50 for road balance on your $30000 machine?

[billybovine]

If you machine your own plate, I believe the bore is 28mm but check to be sure. Also, if you are pressing studs, consider that the spacer needs to be absolutely flat on the faces and parallel to prevent wobbles AND the spacer must be counterbored to receive the heads of the wheel studs. Maybe you are considering threaded studs which require no counterbore, but will require some very aligned drilling and tapping. Not demanding this is how it must be done, rather sharing some concerns that may arise.

Apparently, I am fortunate that the drive cup on the balancer I own is small enough to work with no adapter. I was worried at first and was scoping out my adjustable adapter similar to the one shown with legs and studs, possibly setting it up for 3 hole wheels.

As I said, no doubt road force would be best if done correctly. However without going crazy I obtained balance and no shakes in the bars, with a proper dynamic balance (and added corrected the factory mistake of 1.0 oz of needed weights).

All the best with it.

PK

Thanks,

I had not considered that the drive cup was different sizes on different machines. So as you suggested I will have to have a counterbore to drop the heads of the studs below the surface. That means starting out with a thicker slab of steel.

[PMK]

Thanks,

I had not considered that the drive cup was different sizes on different machines. So as you suggested I will have to have a counterbore to drop the heads of the studs below the surface. That means starting out with a thicker slab of steel.

Honestly, if you just made a flat parallel circular plate, acting as just a shim, it would only need 3 studs threaded in to "drive" the wheel assembly (no lug nuts). A cone for centering could be used on the outside of the wheel along with the retention clamp. Pretty much the same as the standard balancer, just able to handle the smaller mounting flange of the Spyder rim.

In the end, it may be easier to just as someone suggested find a shop that can balance Smart Car wheels.

FWIW, my balancer is a Snap On WB200, old school, hand spin but works very well.

PK

[Deputy56]

Road force balanced my 2014 RT-S front tires, got one side down to 1 lb. road force, and the other side to 8 lbs. Less than 20 lbs. is the goal. Its poring rain right now, will be interesting to see how much difference it has made.

[happyspyder2039]

Road force balanced my 2014 RT-S front tires, got one side down to 1 lb. road force, and the other side to 8 lbs. Less than 20 lbs. is the goal. Its poring rain right now, will be interesting to see how much difference it has made.

how did they balance the tire. Spin balance or force balance. the guy that did mine said they were to small to road force test? I have taken them back 2 times now for issues 45- 55MPH

[Deputy56]

how did they balance the tire. Spin balance or force balance. the guy that did mine said they were to small to road force test? I have taken them back 2 times now for issues 45- 55MPH

I actually did my own work, the machine did both. Its is very tricky setting up machine due to spyder wheels. The machine checks roadforce first, then spins at higher speed for balance. The funny thing is the tire with less roadforce has more weights. Rain has stopped for now I will road test today.