Hesitation on hard right turns

[SNOOPY]

Thanks dad....we will.

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I was thinking the same thing earlier!

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[SNOOPY]

This might get us pointed in the right direction.... Page 10
http://www.nord-com.net/stoni/docs/bosch_eSensors.pdf

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Pretty interesting stuff.

[billrob71]

This might get us pointed in the right direction.... Page 10
http://www.nord-com.net/stoni/docs/bosch_eSensors.pdf

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I'm looking and it looks like it takes a high and a low can bus reading from the steering angle sensor, half to do some reading on that but if the steering angle sensor has a straight ahead reading at all times. Having a angle sensor out of the equation (dismounted and off the steering shaft but still plugged in giving a straight ahead reading at all times may take it off line).

Still think there is a type of circuit board in the sensor with more steering more voltage is applied giving it its reading and adjustments.

Found couple yaw sensors on ebay. can am spyder bosch sensor $329 plus shipping, bosch yaw sensor out of a audi A6 $50 HMMMM may not plug in but if I can find one cheap enough to cut apart may help figure it out.

Got multiple salvage yards around, Ill half to check the next time Im there to see if I can find a cheap one.

[billrob71]

Yeah and looking its taking a 2.5 volt reference but output voltage is between 0.0-5.0 max volt output, depending on the amount of motion turning the steering shaft.


Found this too

http://rb-aa.bosch.com/boaasocs/inde...FDB4.sundoro2?

[DrewNJ]

Looks like the steering angle sensor is 3 bolts.....hmmm

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[SNOOPY]

I think it's cool you all are looking into this. It would be nice if something can be done. I've seen other sensors on cars modified all the time, too complicated for me, but glad some have looked into such things.

[DrewNJ]

We are not the first. A few looked into it back in 09ish but it doesn't look like anything became of it.
Maybe this time around? ?

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[SNOOPY]

Once I see if I can get to mine, I'm going to see if the shimming helps.

Anything would be an improvement. I'm not a crazy aggressive rider, but just hate the bike dying in simple corners.

[PMK]

Pretty cool topic.

From my experience with this stuff on other vehicles, the 0<2.5>50 is pretty typical.


There are electronic boxes that can be "dialed In " to control many of the functions of various sensors. One common item is Mass Air Flow when looking for power. The computers can be kind of dumb, since they feel nothing, and the sensor react to simple inputs that convert to voltage outputs.

Senors like VSS, team up and the computer takes in the data to see what is happening and how to react.

Tilting the sensors pitch is altering an input and changing an output voltage.

I am pretty certain, considering how long the machine boots up, that the computer is "inspecting" all voltages prior to firing the engine. Pretty typical.

With accelerometers, in a steady state, they should provide stable voltage to how they have been nulled out. So in theory, the sensor is mounted, BUDS is calibrated and everything begins at probably 2.5volts. Shimming after nulling induces a slightly skewed input, but this may be overcome if BUDS is connected, finds a value it does no like and it becomes reset.

So, as a thought, and I could be totally wrong having never done this on a Spyder, you may be better off to reposition the sensor to a new location, lower on the chassis. The VSS on the upper frames spine, will sense many inputs, one it is calibrated for would be Roll. Here's the thing with sensing roll. It must measure not only a lateral G input, but also a Rate of Change. Lowering the sensor, will have a short distance from the chassis Roll Center, which may (or may not) alter Rate of Change. The G loads will remain, unless the sensor is mounted on a gimble to null everything.

So by decreasing the roll input, the computer may sense the vehicle is flat, and not dump throttle. As far as nulling when BUDS is connected, it will see it as good. In summary, you have recalibrated the chassis to the VSS, as opposed to calibrating VSS to the chassis and parameters set out by engineers.

If you want to have a means to recalibrate more than move a sensor, these guys may have some items to help. Voltage clamps could be a simple solution, but I am not 100% certain it could accomplish the goal.

https://splitsec.com/

I run a rebranded MAF calibrator from this company in my Tacoma. Pretty simple and does make a difference.

PK

[PMK]

I want to add also, these chassis sensors, measure change over time with intensity.

So the computer sees throttle input, steering angle, then how they all correlate to each other at a given moment.

Time is also processed, making the sensors accelerometers.

By lowering the VSS, this ma change the rate of movement over a given time, or put the sensor in a position less complimented by chassis roll.

That is why the system will vary each time a similar input of riding is initiated.

In the end, it may come down to needing a dual mode on the steering sensor, trying to convince the computer the wheels are not turned as much as they are. Might look at a voltage clamp on the steering also.

PK

[PMK]

This might be a good conditioner for both steering and VSS in one box.

Remember, the computer sees voltage, does not always matter where it comes from. So by design this is for engine management, but could probably easily recalibrate two other outputs.

https://splitsec.com/product/lsc1-00...gnal-modifier/

BTW, done right, something like this is patch cabled into the system, then when service is required, a simple disconnect / reconnect lets BUDS see all is 100%

PK

[NancysToy]

I'm looking and it looks like it takes a high and a low can bus reading from the steering angle sensor, half to do some reading on that but if the steering angle sensor has a straight ahead reading at all times. Having a angle sensor out of the equation (dismounted and off the steering shaft but still plugged in giving a straight ahead reading at all times may take it off line).

Still think there is a type of circuit board in the sensor with more steering more voltage is applied giving it its reading and adjustments.

Found couple yaw sensors on ebay. can am spyder bosch sensor $329 plus shipping, bosch yaw sensor out of a audi A6 $50 HMMMM may not plug in but if I can find one cheap enough to cut apart may help figure it out.

Got multiple salvage yards around, Ill half to check the next time Im there to see if I can find a cheap one.

Remember that the steering angle and steering torque sensors are constantly compared, to initiate distributed braking control to maintain your steering line if needed. The right and left wheel sensors also enter into the equation. It is not as simple as it might seem. I'm looking forward to hearing about your experimentation...not because I intend to follow suit, but the more we understand about these systems the better we can deal with them or troubleshoot them. Keep up the good work, guys. Be careful, though.

[DrewNJ]

This might be a good conditioner for both steering and VSS in one box.

Remember, the computer sees voltage, does not always matter where it comes from. So by design this is for engine management, but could probably easily recalibrate two other outputs.

https://splitsec.com/product/lsc1-00...gnal-modifier/

BTW, done right, something like this is patch cabled into the system, then when service is required, a simple disconnect / reconnect lets BUDS see all is 100%

PK

PK, that is fantastic! I'm going to do some digging into some of the wiring diagrams over the next handfull of days, but for $140 this is likely the way to go and worth the try.

The system does not auto zero or auto calibrate at startup. I know this for sure because I have seen the input numbers on the BRP diagnostic software and from the software has to be zero'd out manually by the tech. However, I don't know how far out of range the sensor can be before setting a fault.

Scotty, I agree, its possible that the signals are compared between the components and if one is to far out of wack it likely won't work. The signal modifier might just give us the ability to make consistent linear changes to both components.

I'm also wondering if a 2014 RSS VSS Bosch sensor is less twitchy because of a different spec sensor, or if the reprogramming to be less aggressive is built into the program.

I'm not looking to totally eliminate the system, just to make it a bit less aggressive.....although the occasional burnout would be entertaining without having to hear the pop pop pop of the ignition cut.....

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[Bob Denman]

Remember that the steering angle and steering torque sensors are constantly compared, to initiate distributed braking control to maintain your steering line if needed. The right and left wheel sensors also enter into the equation. It is not as simple as it might seem. I'm looking forward to hearing about your experimentation...not because I intend to follow suit, but the more we understand about these systems the better we can deal with them or troubleshoot them. Keep up the good work, guys. Be careful, though.

Please keep us "in the loop"!

[PMK]

PK, that is fantastic! I'm going to do some digging into some of the wiring diagrams over the next handfull of days, but for $140 this is likely the way to go and worth the try.

The system does not auto zero or auto calibrate at startup. I know this for sure because I have seen the input numbers on the BRP diagnostic software and from the software has to be zero'd out manually by the tech. However, I don't know how far out of range the sensor can be before setting a fault.

Scotty, I agree, its possible that the signals are compared between the components and if one is to far out of wack it likely won't work. The signal modifier might just give us the ability to make consistent linear changes to both components.

I'm also wondering if a 2014 RSS VSS Bosch sensor is less twitchy because of a different spec sensor, or if the reprogramming to be less aggressive is built into the program.

I'm not looking to totally eliminate the system, just to make it a bit less aggressive.....although the occasional burnout would be entertaining without having to hear the pop pop pop of the ignition cut.....

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Agree the machine will not recalibrate on each start, merely look for faults outside a set limit.

I became intrigued by this earlier. Did some internet searching which brought me back here. Seems the steering angle is a major player in all this and the one to focus on.

PK

[DrewNJ]

Hmm. The big question is to use a clamp or a signal modifier....
And so far I'm a bit confused on the steering with the can hi and can low and which ones to tap into.
The yaw is easy and seems to be straight forward. Also gonna have to figure out if the steering sensor sends the reference to the yaw???

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[PMK]

Hmm. The big question is to use a clamp or a signal modifier....
And so far I'm a bit confused on the steering with the can hi and can low and which ones to tap into.
The yaw is easy and seems to be straight forward. Also gonna have to figure out if the steering sensor sends the reference to the yaw???

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I don't have any information to read from in front of me, so a guess of sorts based on other stuff I have seen.

The stability sensor is an accelerometer. This will measure a multi axis input over time it occurs. The steering angle should be a simpler sweep reading, like a volume control on a radio. Low volume = x, High Volume = y, the null is set by buds.

Accelerometers, as I mentioned in a previous post are a bit odd to deal with. In simple terms they measure velocity. This is rate of movement over time. Often we see it expressed as IPS or inches per second. This was why I mentioned POSSIBLY, lowering the stability accelerometer on the chassis by several inches.

The vehicle itself has a dynamic roll center of the chassis. In simple terms, you turn, the suspension moves and something leans. Consider an ice skater, arms in is high rpm, arms out is low rpm, so if by moving the accelerometer closer to the roll center, it will decrease the IPS while sensing lateral G loads.

Pulling away from a dead stop, the accelerometer sees nothing. Seems the steering sensor is the major player.

If you just want the pull away with no concern, I believe either black box (clamp or recalibrator) would make it happen. The nice thing though with a recalibrator is that you get software, with the software you can correlate the input voltage and alter output voltage. So instead of a linear voltage change, you could create a same profile as stock up to a certain turn angle, then run a shallow reverse curve to the steering stop. I would be looking into the two in one box, use one side for steering input, the other to control accelerometer values.

FWIW, this is in a nutshell how they recalibrate a MAF sensor. The dyno run is done, they note lean or rich areas via load and rpm, then reprogram the MAF output into the computer to better control the fuel, timing and so forth.

The days of tuning by changing jets is long gone. In a few minutes, without getting dirty some tuners make big HP numbers and run more efficient.

PK

[DrewNJ]

I'm more old school than new tech...unfortunately. I get carbs, it's what I grew up with. However, I'm learning the new stuff.. The ideas and philosophies are the same, and in many ways, the new stuff is easier...once you understand it..

Ok, I haven't spent any time with the wiring schematics for the spyder yet but this is what I have so far. It seems all the yaw/accel sensors use a 0-5v reference with the 2.5 being null.

For the Yaw Rate Sensor. This is the easy one. The dual channel modifier will give us complete control of the sensor output. The yaw sensor has 2 outputs. 1: The Yaw Rate Sensor and 2: The acceleration sensor. This would easily wire up to Channels 1 and 2 on the modifier along with the reference voltage, 12v+, and ground. All of these are right on the sensor harness so no worries about odd stray voltage through another ground source. Dial down the pots and test from there.

Now the one I'm struggling with. The steering angle sensor. I haven't seen the schematics on this yet, but assuming it's a typical Bosch angle sensor it has these for connections:
12v, Ground, CAN high, CAN low.
That's where I'm stuck at. I don't get the CAN high, and CAN low.
Now, it's entirely possible I'm wrong on the steering angle sensor connections. This is just what's on the Bosch website......I gotta dig out the spyder schematics...

[DrewNJ]

Here are the specs and wiring for the yaw/accel sensor

[DrewNJ]

Here are the specs and wiring for the steering angle sensor

[DrewNJ]

And the wiring for the dual channel modifier

[PMK]

I had found a diagram for the BMW sensor. It was on the net. Internally it showed the processor but really seemed most focused on the voltage outputs. Similar to so much of this stuff.

FWIW, I have boxes of Mikuni and Keihin jets.

PK

[SNOOPY]

I'm pitching a tent reading all of this.


Just sayin'



lol

[billrob71]

Dam I've missed a lot today

A lot of good info PMK , there has gotta be a way to change how quick it engages

[Bob Denman]

Just to Play "Devil's Advocate" for a moment...
There's an awful lot of good information being found and spread around...
Has anybody thought to ask if it's really a good idea?

PLEASE:
Tread carefully!
If you kill-off Nanny's ability to save your butt when you might need it the most... it could come back to haunt you...
...Just sayin'...