.....and I carry.

[Fat Crip]

It's clear that my perspective of the US is that of an outsider, but I'm not sure anybody would deny the obvious facts that in the US there are more guns, more shootings and more gun deaths per head of population than almost anywhere in the world, where as the opposite is true in the UK, despite the fact that police are most often unarmed.

From my own perspective, despite living in a variety of parts of the UK both rural and urban, I have never been robbed, assaulted, burgled or victim of any crime in my 48 years. No one has ever threatened me with anything more offensive than a loud voice and I have never felt the need of any weapon for my defence from any perceived foe with the exception of serving in the Navy. We have a police force which not only remains unarmed, but whenever the subject is raised, they themselves insist on maintaining the status quo.

My comments on a lack of choice in the US is based on the idea that even if I convinced every one of you that the US should ban all guns, it would be impossible to enact. There are just too many guns and no one knows who owns them. You have no "gun free cities", In a country awash with guns, you can't possibly! Here gun control began in 1920, before the time of modern weapons. As a result most guns in Britain were left over revolvers or bolt action rifles from before WWI. Now a days all automatic, semi-autos and pistols are totally banned. As a result criminals must import weapons which is difficult and expensive and therefore rare. It's one of the advantages of living on an island. The more common alternative, and usually more dangerous to the owners than their potential victims, are converted replica guns. These often look Impressive, but a Desert Eagle that is, in truth, a single shot .22 that will usually blow up within a few shots is: a pale shadow of the real thing! Even amongst the criminal classes, guns remain rare, so much so, the police don't want guns themselves.

Anyway, it works for us. We are a peaceful country where the chances of getting shot are less than one thousandth of the US. I've looked at this question with travel sites and I realise that Europeans are worried about getting shot or robbed in the US and every American is certain that they will have their pockets picked a dozen times a day. It hasn't happened to me yet and I travel in the UK and Europe all the time and as a wheelchair user, I'd be an easy target.

Breaking news... someone has been shot in the UK! A girl was shot on a very rough social housing estate in Hackney in London this week. The first this year and so rare that it made the national news all day as a result! So far in the US (using recent years stats) the number will be well passed 2,500 which, given you population is only five times that of the UK, is appalling! Does any single shooting ever make the National News in the US?

Snoopy, I'll give you my personal guarantee that if you were to come to the UK you will be safer than you are in your own home!


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[Fat Crip]

Funny you say you have a fear of coming to the US because of stories you hear, I feel the same way about Europe. There is no way I would ever visit Europe as an American because of all the violence that I hear that goes on there. And no, you're not going to change my mind. Lol

I don't 'fear' the US, I just said that the chat here was putting me off. If many of you fear going out without a gun in your belt, what am I supposed to think?


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[Fat Crip]

Who would like some ice cream?
He doesn't live here; he has no background in his life that would give him the perspective that we have...
Likewise; we lack the perspective to know how his societal norms work for him...
Let's just back away from the table, and agree to disagree...

And in case anybody wants to forget MY perspective... If I can live and let live; the rest of you should be able to manage it as well.

I'd love a ice-cream thank you and maybe if I ever come to the states you could let me see your guns as I do miss shooting - I haven't shot any proper guns since leaving the Navy in the early '90's - but to live in a safe country, that's a price I'm happy to pay :-)


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[bruiser]

I lived in the UK for three years during the time of IRA bombings and shootings. In those three years I only saw two armed officers and they were just outside Buckingham Palace. Granted, I lived in a small town, but visited London on several occasions and some other mid sized cities. I never felt safer. The Bobbies were friendly, courteous and helpful. And they seemed to be everywhere. I was stopped coming home from work about 2:00 one morning. Mind you, I was driving my "yank tank" Ford pickup. The two Bobbies were more curious about my "lorry" than anything else, but wanted to know why I was out that time of the morning. There was one local Bobby that walked the beat in town. An older gentleman (at that time), he was full of funny stories. There was drug activity in town. The dentist office right next to our flat was broken into one night.

I got stopped another time coming home around midnight. There was construction on our street and temporary stop lights were put up. I was in a bad mood and just wanted to get home. I ran the light. As soon as I did, i got lit up. When I got out of the truck the first thing the Bobby said was " I'm sorry to inconvenience you sir". He was very nice and in fact, his demeanor calmed me down. They don't issue tickets directly. They file a report and then it's up to the chief officer of that area to issue the citation by mail. I didn't receive a citation because the officer that stopped me included in his report that I was cooperative, had had a bad night at work, and there was no traffic at that time. You won't get that from cops here in the good old US of A.


Bottom line, yeah, there was crime, muggings, drugs, gangs, but we still felt safe. Even in the "gritty" parts of London. I respect Fat Crips comments. I don't agree with his point of not visiting here because of this thread. I would say, give us a chance. It's not as bad as it's made out to be.

I might also add, I don't carry every time I walk out the door.

[shelbydave]

...In many states, you actually have a better chance of being killed by a vehicle than a gun... It's all in perspective.. I don't think most people who carry do it to feel "safe", they do it because they can, and they are used to it. Just like brushing your teeth in the morning... I don't feel any less safe because I don't carry, however, there are some parts of towns that I will NOT ride through. In my travels, that accounts for probably less than 1% of my total.

I DO however feel less safe riding down some stretches of interstate, and sometimes that accounts for >50% of my travels where I need to re-route in order to avoid that stretch of highway.

[Bob Denman]

I'd love a ice-cream thank you and maybe if I ever come to the states you could let me see your guns as I do miss shooting - I haven't shot any proper guns since leaving the Navy in the early '90's - but to live in a safe country, that's a price I'm happy to pay :-)

A question: Do they have any sort of "Public Shooting Ranges" available?

And if they do; can you rent, or be loaned, a firearm during your visit to the place?

[bruiser]

When I was there, they had skeet ranges and I remember a hunting area in one of the towns close to ours. Most long guns the locals owned were shotguns. We were not allowed to take our handguns with us, long guns had to have the barrels leaded if they were not shotguns. If memory is right (memory?) we had to register our shotguns if we lived off base. Every base had a skeet range and there were competitions between bases. Some bases had archery ranges too.

[Bob Denman]

Did you ever shoot skeet like THIS??

[wyliec]

Wyliec,

Sorry I got out of line. I gave myself the ban hammer, so no one else would have to.


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Thanks,

But, I instigated you further. I also take responsibility.

[Bob Denman]

Time for a Group Hug!

[Dan_Ashley]

Dan, your missing the point. If simply carrying a gun will get you five years and the police don't carry guns why would any criminal go to the considerable trouble and huge expense of getting a gun? The minute you arm the police the criminal needs to carry, so the cop needs a bigger gun (or three), so the criminal wants a machine gun etc., etc. You just start an arms race.

In the last ten years we have only had one incident of a fatal shooting of the police and even then they wouldn't have stood a chance, guns or not.

The uk police don't want guns and generally resent the odd occasions when they do have to carry them.

The US clearly does not have the luxury of choice here. With more guns per head of population than just about anywhere and a similarly disastrous incidence of fatal shootings it is no wonder that every Tom, Dick or Harry with enough cash feels the need to have a gun!

I've always wanted to visit your country, but this discussion has put me off rather. A policeman shoots an unarmed drunk in Walmart and gets praised for doing his duty? A victim of a mass shooting by a madman with an assault rifle thinks the answer is more guns not less? You can't ride a motorcycle without packing a piece and you don't think there's anything wrong with that? Sure, you've crossed the Rubicon, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, but surely you can't be proud of what you're second amendment has created? Let alone call us sums for living in a country where the risk of getting shot by a criminal or a police officer is practically zero?

Oh and I don't live in England! Scotland is next door to England and both are constituent parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I don't own any guns. Gun ownership helps prevent totalitarian governments though.

[Sarge707]

A question: Do they have any sort of "Public Shooting Ranges" available?

And if they do; can you rent, or be loaned, a firearm during your visit to the place?

I doubt very much that Ranges where you have to pay to shoot a weapon (Gun) whose sole purpose is to Kill things would be the First thing people in the UK would be Stupid enough to Pay Hard Earned $$$ to do?

[Bob Denman]

Just a thought...
Some folks; myself included, just enjoy target practice!

"Gun) whose sole purpose is to Kill things"...
Wow... get a grip...
How much experience with firearms; do you even have?

[shelbydave]

Just a thought...
Some folks; myself included, just enjoy target practice!

"Gun) whose sole purpose is to Kill things"...
Wow... get a grip...
How much experience with firearms; do you even have?

In his defense, they weren't invented / developed for target practice originally...

Not taking sides, just putting out the facts.

[Bob Denman]

I know...
But it's a very pleasant pasttime; not unlike bowling, but without the funny shoes!
The purpose: to hit a specific spot on a target.
Bowling; but with louder noises!

[Sarge707]

Just a thought...
Some folks; myself included, just enjoy target practice!

"Gun) whose sole purpose is to Kill things"...
Wow... get a grip...
How much experience with firearms; do you even have?

I was an Advanced Infantry Drill Sergeant in the seventies and taught Patrolling, Ambushes and Escape and Evasion as my main subjects. Also ran my Guard Units Range Qualification as NCOIC and was responsible for an Armory Full of Weapons for 22 Years.

Besides having a 22 Rifle for home defense My Least favorite things to do are Walk in the Woods and Shoot a Weapon?

[Bob Denman]

Military usage of firearms is vastly different than law enforcement, or even civilian usages.
You have let that background; color your perceptions to an unwarranted degree.
But still; Thanks for serving!

[bruiser]

Did you ever shoot skeet like THIS??

No. But I stayed in a Holiday Inn.

[Dan_Ashley]

Military usage of firearms is vastly different than law enforcement, or even civilian usages.
You have let that background; color your perceptions to an unwarranted degree.
But still; Thanks for serving!

It is an interesting fact of societies, that those who refuse to kill, and also refuse to recognize the importance of being prepared, are the very same ones who hire others to kill for them. Our species is sadly prone to violence.

[bruiser]

Blame it all on the Chinese. They invented gunpowder and consequently, the earliest gunpowder weapons.

[Bob Denman]

Curiously enough; for a while, the British were laying claim to that invention as well...

[Dan_Ashley]

Blame it all on the Chinese. They invented gunpowder and consequently, the earliest gunpowder weapons.

Um....Al Gore invented the internet. Does he get blame for cyber crime?

[bruiser]

Interestingly, the use of gunpowder and gunpowder charged weapons spread from China through the Middle East then to Europe. It's first use in England was thought to be around the mid 1200s (13th. century). That's about as much history I can remember without reverting to looking up facts. Not bad for an old man.

[Bob Denman]

...Just before the onset of the Rennaissance; where art, beauty, science, and culture thrived!

[shelbydave]

Interestingly, the use of gunpowder and gunpowder charged weapons spread from China through the Middle East then to Europe. It's first use in England was thought to be around the mid 1200s (13th. century). That's about as much history I can remember without reverting to looking up facts. Not bad for an old man.

Been around a while? My memory only goes back to the '60s...