Oil Change Frequency

[Putt-Putt]

I have used car oils (Valvoline) for decades with motorcycles and never ever have I had a problem with an engine or trans. due to oil. This includes several different bike brands- high performance Drag racing and at least a few hundred thousand miles. Shell Rotella is rated for severe use in diesels witch puts a lot more stress on oil than a gas engine. I think this is a lot of scare tactics to get you to use the more expensive oil. They want you to use the more expensive oil to make more money. Just look at the gas prices mostly all political reasons for increases. Just mention motorcycles or marine and the price takes a jump. We have pulled stock engines apart for drag racing that have been using car rated oil to modify for racing with No abnormal wear from those used with motorcycle rated oil. Do you see any service ratings on the oil container from say Shell Rotella that are different than on BRP oil or any motorcycle oil? If you use the same rated oil whats the difference?

[bjt]

...If you use the same rated oil whats the difference?

The "secret" ingredients.

[Way2Fast]

I wouldn't use XP-S (BRP's labeled oil) if it cost $1 a gallon ! This is the same 4 stroke synthetic oil that BRP warns against using in their supercharged 4-tec Sea-doo personal watercraft. Using this oil in their watercraft will result in the SC clutch slipping and will void the warranty. The 4-stroke XP-S "MINERAL" oil is the only BRP motor oil approved for use in the supercharged engines. BRP speaks with a forked tongue when they say to use the synthetic XP-S in the Spyder which also has an oil lubed clutch. This oil is not a motorcycle specific oil. It is interesting to note that the BRP synthetic oil is 5W-40 while the BRP mineral oil is 10W-40, yet both these oils are recommended for Rotax 4-stroke PWC engines, the mineral oil for engines with a SC clutch and the synthetic for those without superchargers.

The reason oil companies make 0W and 5W oils is to increase fuel mileage in automobiles...to be able to post a higher mpg number on the window sticker. Such "thin" oils are not as protective as a heavier weight oil, especially in warm weather operation...where most motorcycles are used. Unless you ride in zero degree weather, there is no need for a 5W oil. 10W-40 is more than sufficient and is recommended by most motorcycle manufacturers. Ever think why BRP is the only manufacturer to specify a 5W oil ???

Richard

[SpyderMark]

Oh goodie... more oil wars!

...there becomes a major difference between automotive oil, and motorcycle oil. ...the oil needs the ability to protect the engine and mostly the transmission, against the "shear" forces applied to the oil from the gears etc. These special additives are NOT found in automotive oils because they are not needed.

Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 is manufactured specifically for the diesel engine market, but the container label states it is "suitable" for use in gasoline engines. Although it may be suitable for use in gasoline engines, this is a diesel engine oil specifically formulated to handle the shear forces of diesel engines.

How then, can Shell Rotella T or any other brand of NON motorcycle rated oil, be of any value without those friction modifiers that are essential to an oil rated for motorcycles?

I think you're getting two different additive packages mixed up. One set of additives is specifically included to reduce oil break down due to shear forces. Another set of additives is included to reduce internal engine friction -- so-called "friction modifiers."

Manufacturers of motorcycle-specific oils (and oils forumulated for diesel engines) say these special oils contain additives that guard against breakdown of the oil due to shear forces. Here's how:

An ordinary multi-grade automotive oil -- say 5W40 -- is a base 5 weight oil when cold. That's a pretty thin oil. When it gets hot, however, it becomes the equivalent of a 40 weight oil. How does it do that? I'm glad you asked!

Modern multi-weight oils contain special polymers that change shape with heat. When they get hot, they elongate affecting the viscosity of the oil -- in simple terms it becomes relatively thicker. So what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Well, over time, shear forces inside the engine can break these elongated polymers into smaller pieces. When that happens, the smaller pieces of the broken polymers can no longer affect the oil's viscosity the way they did when they were longer, and the oil's viscosity decreases -- it becomes relatively thinner.

Manufacturers of motorcyle-specific oils claim their oils are resistant to breakdown of this sort. In fact, resistance to breakdown is one of the main marketing points for motorcycle-specific oils. But there is credible evidence suggesting there might be a lot more marketing than science in these claims. You might start here if you're inclined to a little research helping separate the facts from the hype. You'll want to carefully read results 4 and 5 of the section titled "Preliminary Conclusions."

The fact is, oil DOES break down. In fact, a fresh multi-grade oil with a 5W40 rating may only be a 5W20 after 3,000 miles of use -- that's one of the reasons you should change the oil at the recommended interval. In fact, many manufacturers resisted the push to switch to multi-grade oils when they first became available -- a good single-grade oil DOES NOT break down due to shear forces because there are no polymers to break. Of course, there a number of other major benefits provided by multi-weight oils that outweigh (ha! I made funny!) this singular strength, especially since a simple oil change, which you must do anyway for other reasons, returns your multi-grade oil back to its full potential. But I digress...

The other additive you mentioned was friction modifiers. Friction modifiers are added to gasoline-engine oils (automotive gasoline-engine only, not motorcycle or diesel) to reduce internal engine friction. These additives are aimed at increasing fuel mileage and have nothing to due with preventing break down due to shear forces. Motorcycle manufacturers learned when these types of oils became available that the friction modifiers can interfere with clutch operation, and so recommended their customers avoid them.

API SL (and earlier) gasoline-engine oils may or may not contain friction modifiers. Those that do are labeled as "Energy Conserving." All API SM gasoline-engine oils 30 weight and below automatically contain friction modifiers as part of the new SM standard regardless of how they are labeled (heavier weight API SM oils may or may not). This change to the SM standard (the automatic inclusion of friction modifiers) is why BRP specifically warns against the use of API SM rated oils.

As I mentioned, motorcycle-specific oils do not contain these friction modifiers -- and neither does Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40, despite its API SM rating. To put it another way, since they are not specifically intended for use in gasoline engines, there is no requirement for oils marketed for diesel engines to add friction modifiers in order to meet the API SM standard.

In short, since Shell Rotella T Synthetic meets BRP viscosity specifications, is purportedly shear stable like motorcycle-specific oil and DOES NOT contain friction modifiers, I believe it is perfectly suitable for use in your Spyder's engine. I've been using it in our Spyder for 3,000+ miles with no clutch issues. In fact, I've used Shell Synthetic oil in ALL my motorcycles for years (10,000+ miles on my Triumph Tiger 1050) with no clutch issues.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, with an oil change interval of only 3,000 miles, you could probably use vegatable oil with no problems in the Spyder...

Although there is a specific prohibition regarding towing in the Spyder Operator's Guide, there is no detail explaining why (dangerous handling qualities, possible clutch problems, excessive wear on the engine, all of the above, none of the above). Let's wait until we get DATA about Lamonster's clutch before we start making guesses as to what caused it to slip.

Regards,

Mark

[SpyderMark]

It is interesting to note that the BRP synthetic oil is 5W-40 while the BRP mineral oil is 10W-40, yet both these oils are recommended for Rotax 4-stroke PWC engines,

I don't see a problem with the different viscosity requirements between these machines -- lower temps require lower viscosity base oil. While I could foresee some crazy Spyder Ryder climbing on his or her machine in sub-zero weather, I think the ice might interfere with such an endeavor for the PWC enthusiast.

Regards,

Mark

[Spyderman62]

Oh goodie... more oil wars!



Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 is manufactured specifically for the diesel engine market, but the container label states it is "suitable" for use in gasoline engines. Although it may be suitable for use in gasoline engines, this is a diesel engine oil specifically formulated to handle the shear forces of diesel engines.



I think you're getting two different additive packages mixed up. One set of additives is specifically included to reduce oil break down due to shear forces. Another set of additives is included to reduce internal engine friction -- so-called "friction modifiers."

Manufacturers of motorcycle-specific oils (and oils forumulated for diesel engines) say these special oils contain additives that guard against breakdown of the oil due to shear forces. Here's how:

An ordinary multi-grade automotive oil -- say 5W40 -- is a base 5 weight oil when cold. That's a pretty thin oil. When it gets hot, however, it becomes the equivalent of a 40 weight oil. How does it do that? I'm glad you asked!

Modern multi-weight oils contain special polymers that change shape with heat. When they get hot, they elongate affecting the viscosity of the oil -- in simple terms it becomes relatively thicker. So what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Well, over time, shear forces inside the engine can break these elongated polymers into smaller pieces. When that happens, the smaller pieces of the broken polymers can no longer affect the oil's viscosity the way they did when they were longer, and the oil's viscosity decreases -- it becomes relatively thinner.

Manufacturers of motorcyle-specific oils claim their oils are resistant to breakdown of this sort. In fact, resistance to breakdown is one of the main marketing points for motorcycle-specific oils. But there is credible evidence suggesting there might be a lot more marketing than science in these claims. You might start here if you're inclined to a little research helping separate the facts from the hype. You'll want to carefully read results 4 and 5 of the section titled "Preliminary Conclusions."

The fact is, oil DOES break down. In fact, a fresh multi-grade oil with a 5W40 rating may only be a 5W20 after 3,000 miles of use -- that's one of the reasons you should change the oil at the recommended interval. In fact, many manufacturers resisted the push to switch to multi-grade oils when they first became available -- a good single-grade oil DOES NOT break down due to shear forces because there are no polymers to break. Of course, there a number of other major benefits provided by multi-weight oils that outweigh (ha! I made funny!) this singular strength, especially since a simple oil change, which you must do anyway for other reasons, returns your multi-grade oil back to its full potential. But I digress...

The other additive you mentioned was friction modifiers. Friction modifiers are added to gasoline-engine oils (automotive gasoline-engine only, not motorcycle or diesel) to reduce internal engine friction. These additives are aimed at increasing fuel mileage and have nothing to due with preventing break down due to shear forces. Motorcycle manufacturers learned when these types of oils became available that the friction modifiers can interfere with clutch operation, and so recommended their customers avoid them.

API SL (and earlier) gasoline-engine oils may or may not contain friction modifiers. Those that do are labeled as "Energy Conserving." All API SM gasoline-engine oils 30 weight and below automatically contain friction modifiers as part of the new SM standard regardless of how they are labeled (heavier weight API SM oils may or may not). This change to the SM standard (the automatic inclusion of friction modifiers) is why BRP specifically warns against the use of API SM rated oils.

As I mentioned, motorcycle-specific oils do not contain these friction modifiers -- and neither does Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40, despite its API SM rating. To put it another way, since they are not specifically intended for use in gasoline engines, there is no requirement for oils marketed for diesel engines to add friction modifiers in order to meet the API SM standard.

In short, since Shell Rotella T Synthetic meets BRP viscosity specifications, is purportedly shear stable like motorcycle-specific oil and DOES NOT contain friction modifiers, I believe it is perfectly suitable for use in your Spyder's engine. I've been using it in our Spyder for 3,000+ miles with no clutch issues. In fact, I've used Shell Synthetic oil in ALL my motorcycles for years (10,000+ miles on my Triumph Tiger 1050) with no clutch issues.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, with an oil change interval of only 3,000 miles, you could probably use vegatable oil with no problems in the Spyder...

Although there is a specific prohibition regarding towing in the Spyder Operator's Guide, there is no detail explaining why (dangerous handling qualities, possible clutch problems, excessive wear on the engine, all of the above, none of the above). Let's wait until we get DATA about Lamonster's clutch before we start making guesses as to what caused it to slip.

Regards,

Mark

SpyderMark I think we are saying mostly the same thing. But correct me if I am wrong...There is a difference in the oil "additives" for lack of a better technical term, that separates oil used in gasoline engine, and oil used in motorcycle engines. I am prepared ( mental exercises in progress.....) to accept that I may be wrong. And this excludes the weight ratings, or SA,SB,SC......ratings. Simply the formulation that makes an oil acceptable for use in an engine that also uses the same oil for a wet clutch and transmission. And also, this is not to make a difference between mineral or synthetic ( all three types). Of note, yes I should have stated that oils contain polymers that allow the oil to have the properties of a 0 weight to a 40 or 50 weight by their characteristics being affected by heat. And lastly, the "shear forces" of a transmission, do not exist even in a diesel engine. Wrong type of shear. I am speaking of a shear force exerted on an oil like an axle differential exerts force on a gear oil. In either case, thanks for the response to the "oil war". May we all become more wiser for it, and take more responsibility for maintaining our machines with the knowledge gained here!

[Putt-Putt]

I wouldn't use XP-S (BRP's labeled oil) if it cost $1 a gallon ! This is the same 4 stroke synthetic oil that BRP warns against using in their supercharged 4-tec Sea-doo personal watercraft. Using this oil in their watercraft will result in the SC clutch slipping and will void the warranty. The 4-stroke XP-S "MINERAL" oil is the only BRP motor oil approved for use in the supercharged engines. BRP speaks with a forked tongue when they say to use the synthetic XP-S in the Spyder which also has an oil lubed clutch. This oil is not a motorcycle specific oil. It is interesting to note that the BRP synthetic oil is 5W-40 while the BRP
mineral oil is 10W-40, yet both these oils are recommended for Rotax 4-stroke PWC engines, the mineral oil for engines with a SC clutch and the synthetic for those without superchargers.

The reason oil companies make 0W and 5W oils is to increase fuel mileage in automobiles...to be able to post a higher mpg number on the window sticker. Such "thin" oils are not as protective as a heavier weight oil, especially in warm weather operation...where most motorcycles are used. Unless you ride in zero degree weather, there is no need for a 5W oil. 10W-40 is more than sufficient and is recommended by most motorcycle manufacturers. Ever think why BRP is the only manufacturer to specify a 5W oil ???

Richard

I couldn't of said it better. As I said before with the BRP oil (5w/40) my spyder used oil. Had to add oil twice before a 3,000 mile change, Since changing to Shell Rotella 5w/40 I'm no longer using oil between oil changes.

[SpyderMark]

But correct me if I am wrong...There is a difference in the oil "additives" for lack of a better technical term, that separates oil used in gasoline engine, and oil used in motorcycle engines. ...the formulation that makes an oil acceptable for use in an engine that also uses the same oil for a wet clutch and transmission.

AFAIK, there are no additive packages included in motorcycle oils intended to specifically aid wet-clutch operation. I've never seen any claims by a motorcycle oil manufacturer that their oil works better with a wet clutch than other oils. As mentioned, certain gasoline engine oils contain friction modifiers suspected of interfering with wet clutch operation, but there are many gasoline engine oils out there that do not. Any motor oil that meets an engine manufacturer's specifications -- assuming it does not contain friction modifiers -- will work just fine with a wet clutch.

And lastly, the "shear forces" of a transmission, do not exist even in a diesel engine. Wrong type of shear. I am speaking of a shear force exerted on an oil like an axle differential exerts force on a gear oil.

I can't speak specifically about how the shear forces of a motorcycle transmission compare to the shear forces experienced by oil in a diesel engine, but I don't think it's an important distinction. Why? Because manufacturers who market oil for diesel engines make the same claims regarding "shear stability" -- meaning they can better withstand shear forces than ordinary oil -- as manufacturers of motorcycle-specific oils. At this point it's simply a matter of degree -- is motorcyle oil MORE shear stable than diesel oil? Again, I don't think it's important. Here's why:

According to those who market it, the polymers added to motorcycle-specific oil are shear resistant. The marketing claims state these oils resist breakdown due to shear forces allowing them to maintain viscosity better than ordinary oil. However, there is more than a little evidence out there that these claims (at least for motorcycle-specific oil) are simply marketing hype. One example is the article you can read for yourself at the link in my last post.

The authors of that article independently tested and compared several different oils -- some ordinary oil, others motorcycle-specific -- after different intervals of use (800 miles, 1500 miles, etc). The data showed similar viscosity reductions between ALL petroleum based oils. In other words, the "shear-stable" motorcycle oils were no better at maintaining viscosity over time and use than ordinary oils. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Of particular note, the testing found the greatest reduction in viscosity occurred over the first 800 miles of use. Which makes sense to me; you can only chop up those polymers so much, eventually the pieces are too small to chop any smaller and the viscosity stabilizes. Perhaps the 3,000 mile change interval specified by BRP doesn't seem so crazy...

Also of interest in the article, synthetic oils (even those without supposed shear-stable polymers) were FAR BETTER at maintaining viscosity than motorcycle-specific petroleum oil, and the difference between synthetic oils with and without those supposed shear-stable polymers was not statistically significant. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

The authors of the article approached the manufacturers of the tested oils asking them to review the data and respond to the obvious conclusion. They weren't able to get a straight answer from any of them. In my mind, that places in question the validity of manufacturers' claims that motorcycle-specific oils are shear stable. Interestingly (and disturbingly, if not surprisingly), a careful read of the marketing claims shows shear stability is really the ONLY supposed benefit provided by motorcycle-specific oil above any other high-quality motor oil which meets an engine manufacturer's specifications.

Since marketing claims they hold up better under the hard use seen in motorcycle transmissions remain questionable (at least in my mind), I can see no benefits to using motorcycle-specific oils -- especially since they cost so much more.

Just to be safe though, I'll continue to use shear-stable Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40. I'll get all the benefits of a synthetic oil, and shear stability (whatever that means) as well. Besides, I'm sure Shell's marketers use the term "shear stable" in the same spirit as the marketers of motorcycle-specific oils -- they just do it more cheaply...

Regards,

Mark

[Spyderman62]

SpyderMark - thanks for the reply - I agree that the manufactures make a lot of "advertising claims" that when put under scrutiny, are nothing more than $100 claims of nothing. It is now time for me to dig through some paperwork and find the info concerning oil and the stuff that makes one brand/type better or lesser than another. I appreciate the info posted. Will be back on this subject soon.

[BAZMAN]

THE ONLY REFERENCE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS THE FACT!! THAT WHEN LAMONT CHANGED THE OIL WHILE ON HIS TRIP, THE SLIPPING WAS REDUCED SO HE COULD CONTINUE AND FINISH HIS TRIP. IF IT WAS A PROBLEM WITH THE TRAILER THE FULL PROBLEM WOULD HAVE CONTINUED.
THIS IS THE ONLY INFO WE HAVE AT THIS TIME.
HOPEFULLY LAMONT WILL HAVE AN ANSWER SOON.
BUT I DOUBT HE WILL BE USING SHELL OIL ANYTIME SOON.

[Putt-Putt]

I did a research study on oils a couple of years ago and this is what I came up with. In order best oils period.
1. Red Line
2. Golden Spectro
3. BMW brand oil
4. regular; Spectro
5. Ams-Oil

I'm still going to use Shell Rotella, but if not available I will use Valvoline. Like I said I never had a oil related problem with any motorcycle I ever owned, and thats been quite few of them. More than most people have owned. I think these specific marketed oils are just a bunch of hype to get in your pocket book. And as far as I'm concerned the oil companys have got way to much of mine and your money now.

[SpyderMark]

THE ONLY REFERENCE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS THE FACT!! THAT WHEN LAMONT CHANGED THE OIL WHILE ON HIS TRIP, THE SLIPPING WAS REDUCED SO HE COULD CONTINUE AND FINISH HIS TRIP.

Actually, there are many facts available -- all one must do is take the time to do the research. Lamont's experience is certainly a data point, but certainly not the ONLY data point.

IF IT WAS A PROBLEM WITH THE TRAILER THE FULL PROBLEM WOULD HAVE CONTINUED.

I can think of a few reasons besides changing the oil that might have caused this result, but like you I would be speculating. I agree we shouldn't jump to any conclusions regarding Lamont's clutch until we have ALL the facts...

Regards,

Mark

[Putt-Putt]

I ran into one of the guys here in my area that has a spyder. I met him about a month and a half ago at which time he said he just picked up his spyder. I have not seen him on it, and I figured I would because this is a very small community 2,600 people. I asked him don't you ride your spyder much. He said it's been in the shop a few times and he just got it back. He said once it just wouldn't start; second time the clutch went out and had to have it replaced. He's only got a little over 400 miles on it. And obviously it had the BRP oil in it at that time. He said he has not gotten on it at all, following The BRP recommended break in procedure to the letter. So this is another clutch incident. Just thought this might be of interest.

[Roadkill]

I did a research study on oils a couple of years ago and this is what I came up with. In order best oils period...

+Chuckle... Snicker...

Ride on.
Roadkill

[diane0805]

Well...it's not just the extra "stuff" in the motorcycle oil...but the lack of extra stuff. Many auto oils, including the synthetics, have friction modifiers. These additives reduce engine wear and are specifically designed to gain milage. For motorcycles in which the clutch (e.g. "wet clutch") share the engine oil, these friction modifiers prevent the clutch from operating properly (excessive slip) and MAY even cause damage. That being said...it is not generally advisable to use a synthetic auto oil, like 10W-40 as a replacement for the same weight motorcyle oil - 10W-40. Motorcyle oils should indicate "JASO MA" certification, and should be absent the friction certification (i can't remember the acronym)