fan reversal

[Bob Denman]

Hacking....really?

Granted... my choice of wording could be improved...

But do you think that BRP's technicians would see it as much more than that?
And I'll re-state that I have absolutely NO dog in this fight...
I'm only trying to encourage independent courses of action, that are attempting to find solutions.

[Jeriatric]

Granted... my choice of wording could be improved...

But do you think that BRP's technicians would see it as much more than that?
And I'll re-state that I have absolutely NO dog in this fight...
I'm only trying to encourage independent courses of action, that are attempting to find solutions.

BRP Techs and BRP itself may be surprised. There are some pretty sharp cookies brainstorming this. Myself ●excluded● cause I've never been much more than an idea man.

Their efforts are undoubtedly appreciated. Look at the thread view count.

[Gundam]

And what does the temp read when reversed?

The same as when the fan is run normally... 5 bars on the digital display..... 4 bars if the fan is run continuously...

[Gundam]

Not to be an alarmist. Just thinking out loud here. Using anything that requires manual operation comes with a potential for operator error. Operator error of the cooling system could/may well cause potential warranty issues if anything was to go wrong that directly relates to that system. Again, just thinking out loud but, it seems to me whatever design anyone decides to put in place needs to be as fail safe as possible to avoid ANY potential warranty issues. Just a thought.

Thanks for your thought.... but I have weighted all the consequences.... currently, it is in manual mode and also the reverse operation is required if the right foot gets too hot otherwise it is always in normal mode.... once I have installed the air flow switch, it will be automatic.... as for warranty issues, I'm better off getting it repaired on my own with parts source from overseas... and if the Spyder could not be repaired, then it is better to scrap it.... BRP is half a world away and the local dealer only managed to sell a TOTAL of about 20 Spyders of all types since 2008.... with such numbers, I don't think they will care.....

[Magdave]

The same as when the fan is run normally... 5 bars on the digital display..... 4 bars if the fan is run continuously...

Not coolant temp ambient temp in the upper left corner of the display. How close was it to the outside temp. Mine always reads 2 or 3 deg higher than the actual air temperature. That is what the ECM uses for fuel mapping.

[jwulf74]

Not coolant temp ambient temp in the upper left corner of the display. How close was it to the outside temp. Mine always reads 2 or 3 deg higher than the actual air temperature. That is what the ECM uses for fuel mapping.

I have always wondered how that sensor affects the a/f mixture... my ambient temp always runs about 5 degrees higher than anything else providing the outside temp... and that is before trying to reverse the fan...

Help me out in understanding this... if the ECU is using that same sensor to adjust the A/F mixture, if the temp read lower, would it richen the mixture up a bit? for example, if it is 70 degrees out, but the sensor reports 75 degrees, would it run leaner than expected and if you then reverse the fan and say it reads another 10 degrees higher at 80, would it lean it out again? or do I have that backwards?

If it leans it out more, I would be apt to find a way to relocate it...

[Jeriatric]

As long as you are not getting codes or an orange screen that's attrbutal to a high heat condition. You should be OK. There have been reports of such but most that I recall were the result of heat soak after having shut the engine off but restarting it before things cooled down sufficiently.

[Magdave]

The sensor doesn't need to be accurate, just repeatable.

But if it is reading 120deg on a 70 degree day due to fan reversal surely it must adjust fuel mapping to the lean side possibly causing long term damage over time?

[Gundam]

Not coolant temp ambient temp in the upper left corner of the display. How close was it to the outside temp. Mine always reads 2 or 3 deg higher than the actual air temperature. That is what the ECM uses for fuel mapping.

I thought that temp display is the ambient temp?.... I check it when I use the reverse mode again.... if that temp sensor is used for a/f mixture mapping, shouldn't it be installed somewhere near the air intake, rather at the radiator air tunnel?...

[Jeriatric]

While the temp displayed isn't accurate, it is repeatable and it is what the ECM is calibrated to.
Moving it would not be a Good Thing.

Roger help me out here. Doesn't the ECM recalibrate to it during the processing period after turning the key on, but before pushing the mode button. If so(and I'm told by techs that that's the case) and if it is, how would a truer ambient temprature reading be a bad thing?

[Gundam]

While the temp displayed isn't accurate, it is repeatable and it is what the ECM is calibrated to.
Moving it would not be a Good Thing.

I was thinking that if that sensor is used to measure the air temp going into the engine, shouldn't it be mounted near the air intake for a more accurate reading rather than at the radiator.... or is there another sensor at the air intake and the one at the radiator is only used for ambient temp reading on the display?....

[Gundam]

There won't be a warranty issue, because every proposed system still requires "hacking" into the wiring...
Face it boys; if you dance this dance... you'll be doing it alone!
Nothing is foolproof anyway... My folks were figuring on a doctor or a lawyer, and they ended up with me!

I have always been dancing alone all this while..... just think, for the time since I got my Spyder, I haven't met another Spyder rider on the roads, not even on our local bike forum....

[Bob Denman]

I wouldn't fool around with the positioning of that sensor...
It's another variable that you don't actually need to play with.
Whatever temperature it feeds to the computer; the bike will use.
Gundam will monitor his in an attempt to see if reversing the fan affects it; let's wait and see what the results are before things get any crazier in here...

[Jeriatric]

Yes there is reset of the ECM and all the variables.
A "truer" temperature isn't a bad thing but an unnecessary thing.
As long as the sensor is repeatable it really doesn't matter.
And I kind of doubt that a four or five degree difference really translates into anything very significant anyway from a practical matter.

Thanks Roger. fwiw: I see a larger discrepancy in its accuracy during cold weather riding than in the summer months. Sta rain ge

[Bob Denman]

And I kind of doubt that a four or five degree difference really translates into anything very significant anyway from a practical matter.

Thanks for pointing that out!

[jwulf74]

If you want to have something to chew on
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mfuel.htm

I am going to play with their formula when I get some time this afternoon and see what the real outcome of a temperature variance is.
Unless somebody decides to do it sooner.

OK...that link made my head hurt...I'll let you tackle it.

[Jeriatric]

More input.......If you care to


http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html

OK...that link made my head hurt...I'll let you tackle it.

[Magdave]

If you want to have something to chew on
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mfuel.htm

I am going to play with their formula when I get some time this afternoon and see what the real outcome of a temperature variance is.
Unless somebody decides to do it sooner.

So I am assuming the "IAT" is provided by the ambient sensor?

[Jeriatric]

I have played with the numbers and have calculations for the open time of an injector in tenths of a millisecond.

I simply guessed at the flow rates and other engine data that I didn't have handy so these numbers are relative and probably not what really happens in the Spyder.

I do believe they are close enough to draw conclusions.
A millisecond is .001 of a second.
All other variables remain constant.
So there is .000319 of a TENTH of a second difference between 70 and 80 degrees.
I think this bears out my assumption that it really doesn't matter if the temp sensor is off a bit.
Of course one could look at the numbers and say just the opposite.


70 16.911
71 16.879
72 16.847
73 16.816
74 16.784
75 16.753
76 16.721
77 16.690
78 16.659
79 16.628
80 16.592

You smart guys sure make my Spyder life easier. Thanks Roger

[Magdave]

I have played with the numbers and have calculations for the open time of an injector in tenths of a millisecond.

I simply guessed at the flow rates and other engine data that I didn't have handy so these numbers are relative and probably not what really happens in the Spyder.

I do believe they are close enough to draw conclusions.
A millisecond is .001 of a second.
All other variables remain constant.
So there is .000319 of a TENTH of a second difference between 70 and 80 degrees.
I think this bears out my assumption that it really doesn't matter if the temp sensor is off a bit.
Of course one could look at the numbers and say just the opposite.


70 16.911
71 16.879
72 16.847
73 16.816
74 16.784
75 16.753
76 16.721
77 16.690
78 16.659
79 16.628
80 16.592

Thanks Roger but my question is what does a 30+deg change do to it not a couple. The data is not in on actual changes running in reverse but if run in stop and go traffic how much of a difference will there be and what effect will it have in the long term? On take off it will obviously be running leaner from a stop. What is the temp of the radiator when hot? We know these radiators run HOT and how quick and how much of a rise will occur? This is just something to think about when/if you do this mod. Can it damage the engine running lean? Will it lead to premature plug failure ? Just playing the devils advocate here

[Jeriatric]

I don't think the foot cooker will have much of an effect if any on the temp sensor when reversed. We in the summer months consistantly ride with air in the 160+ range passing by it. And in my case the highest reading seen has been (memory) 117 under the tupperware. As I refer to it.

[Magdave]

I am a bit baffled by your question.
The question I was trying to answer was did it make a difference that the reported temperature of the AAPT sensor was a few degrees off.
Meaning that when it was 70 degrees for real and the sensor shows 75.

The temperature at the radiator isn't used in the calculation for the fuel injection system.
At least in the calculations that I found.

I asked that earlier is the ambient sensor used for IAT calculations or is there another sensor in the TB for that? If so then obviously ambient temp is meaningless in the scheme of things.

PS
I answered my own question the AAPTS is used in fuel management. That is the ambient sensor. Pg 332 & 333 of FSM. Therefore large swings in ambient temp sensor will affect the ECM mapping

[Jeriatric]

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/a...p?albumid=2382

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/a...chmentid=54728

I asked that earlier is the ambient sensor used for IAT calculations or is there another sensor in the TB for that? If so then obviously ambient temp is meaningless in the scheme of things.

PS I answered my own question the AAPTS is used in fuel management. That is the ambient sensor. Pg 332 & 333 of FSM

[3 Wheel Addict]

I still see no reason why that sensor could not be moved to the other side air tunnel?

[jwulf74]

Yeah, I would put it right on the dash.
Then if you thought the ECM fuel mapping needed a little help you could blow on it or maybe put some ice from your Big Gulp for adjustment.

I do wish it read closer to reality though...not sure if it is due to placement or due to being built/supplied by the lowest bidder...