fan reversal

[Gundam]

Our bicycle speedometers use a magnetic system to calculate the speed of the bike... just a magnet on the spoke and a sensor on the fork. I think even the cheapest ones do that now. If a guy could reverse engineer one of those to trip a relay at x speed, that may be a possibility. way beyond my low level of expertise though.

But how do you tap the signals off the unit? It is a closed system whereby signals from the sending unit is send to the display.... like you said, that guy must have a Phd in electronics to be able to do it... way beyond mine too...

[Jeriatric]

But how do you tap the signals off the unit? It is a closed system whereby signals from the sending unit is send to the display.... like you said, that guy must have a Phd in electronics to be able to do it... way beyond mine too...

They have an internal processor which requires you to initially program the appropriate tire size of the bike it will be used on. Great tool for a bicycle but not so practical for this proposed application. jmo

[Gundam]

They have an internal processor which requires you to initially program the appropriate tire size of the bike it will be used on. Great tool for a bicycle but not so practical for this proposed application. jmo

My thoughts exactly.... how about an air flow meter mounted in the tunnel leading to the radiator?.... once a certain amount of air flow is reached, the unit can trigger a signal to cut off the relay.... hmmm.... will look into the triggering output of such meters first....

[Jeriatric]

My thoughts exactly.... how about an air flow meter mounted in the tunnel leading to the radiator?.... once a certain amount of air flow is reached, the unit can trigger a signal to cut off the relay.... hmmm.... will look into the triggering output of such meters first....

Pitot tube. As used on aircraft. Now you're flying. Keep us posted.

[Gundam]

Half of what you need is already installed.
The notched disks bolted on to each wheel is used by the VSS to determine the speed by a hall effect sensor.

Instead of bolting a bicycle magneto on, just use a second hall effect sensor (You can buy one from any BRP dealer) and find a way to bolt it on?
Yes, it would take some electronics but I can't see another reliable way to do it.

But what sort of electronic components is required to convert the signals from the sensor to the relay?.... I ok with electrics but not electronics stuff....

[jcthorne]

My habit of not having my foot on the brake pedal starts after a few years of driving automatic transmission cars, you need to keep pressing the brakes to prevent the car from creeping forward.... I have worn out one brake master cylinder every two years or less, my current car is more than 8 years with the original brake master cylinder... I think I keep my foot off the brake... that's why I don't think the cut off using the brake light will work for me, it is a very good idea and will definitely work....

Hmm, you have a rash of faulty brake master cylinders or poorly rebuilt ones. They are designed for exactly this application. Many millions of master cylinders with 100k miles and more of use in automatic vehicles with no such problems. Yours is really an anomaly and not common in the industry. Heck the one in my pickup has 130k on it and is 12 yrs old. (Its the only automatic I have)

On another idea, have you looked at using signal off the gear position sensor? IE normal flow direction in 2nd gear and up. Reverse in 1st and down (N and R are below 1st in the sequential range)

[Jeriatric]

On another idea, have you looked at using signal off the gear position sensor? IE normal flow direction in 2nd gear and up. Reverse in 1st and down (N and R are below 1st in the sequential range)

Not certain this would work. For example. I often stay In first gear up to thirty miles an hour to keep the clutch locked and to avoid shifting back and forth between 1st and 2nd.

[Bob Ledford]

An easier solution might be to use the transmission gear position sensor. If you are in first gear, reverse the fan.

Good idea but what happens if your going 30 MPH?

[Magdave]

Well you have to power the sensor then you have to read the pulses and convert the pulses to an average voltage.
That takes a power supply, that's already there.

Plus a dual op amp that would act as a buffer and something called an integrator to convert the pulses to an average voltage.
Then you need some form of switch that is voltage sensitive. Another op amp would do the trick wired up as a comparator
You can find all of these circuits in cook books on line, complete with schematics and parts.

So, yes it does take a bit of electronics.
I really can't see any other way around it, but then I'm a not-so-good ee.
When you are a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

The Best of Luck to you.

I still do not see the problem with a TOD set to 10 or 15 sec from the brake light as a supply. No one steps on their brake that long unless stopped

[Bob Denman]

This is realy cool...
A Brainstorming session; with multiple options!!

[finless]

I would go with a integrated PAL chip or something similar. It already has the op amps etc needed to read optical or magnietic pluse sensors as input. You would then write the PAL code to count pulses and trigger the relay if the pulse count is above X in a certain time period.

You can get PAL development kits and programming boards for real cheap! In fact the board can be had for maybe $15 and the kit to program it is free.

My buddy does this kind of thing all the time for his K2 CNC business. He is pretty quick with whipping stuff like this out. I asked him for help but he doesnt have the time right now but I will keep bugging him about it

Bob

[Ramjet]

Here is an idea BRP uses the hardware already available and gives us a service bulletin to do this without any mods?

[Jeriatric]

Here is an idea BRP uses the hardware already available and gives us a service bulletin to do this without any mods?

Add that to your prayers for world peace.

[finless]

Add that to your prayers for world peace.

[Bob Denman]

ME TOO!

[Gundam]

I think I got it fellas.... there is a thing called a air flow switch (goggle it), it's a adjustable spring loaded paddle switch which is installed in a wind tunnel or duct to sense the flow of air, and since it is a switch, it can be directly wired in series with the solenoid of the reverse relay.... it is also independent of vehicle movement, meaning if the vehicle is stationary and a strong wind blows into the duct, it will still activates it, makes it more fail-safe.... the best thing is no sophisticated circuitry involved.... time for ebay, will report back....

[szohar]

I did some measurements with motion sensors, I still need to analyze the results.

If this will be accurate enough I will create an adapter that includes the motion sensor with a controller and a relay that will be connected to the fan and revers it when standing.

The installation will be very simple with no added wires at all.

[Bob Denman]

Gun...
VERY interesting!

[Gundam]

Yes it is.... and the above is the modified wiring diagram... straight forward and simple... but the prices of those air flow paddle switches are expensive.... looking for cheaper sources...

[jwulf74]

I think I got it fellas.... there is a thing called a air flow switch (goggle it), it's a adjustable spring loaded paddle switch which is installed in a wind tunnel or duct to sense the flow of air, and since it is a switch, it can be directly wired in series with the solenoid of the reverse relay.... it is also independent of vehicle movement, meaning if the vehicle is stationary and a strong wind blows into the duct, it will still activates it, makes it more fail-safe.... the best thing is no sophisticated circuitry involved.... time for ebay, will report back....

I like this thought and couple that with a Cole Hersee forward/reverse relay module and I think we have an easy to install solution. Www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_24452.asp has a nice diagram.
Might be other options as this one looks pretty heavy duty. Says it is for "permanent magnet motors only" but I would think a fan motor would qualify.

Could even add an LED to show when it is in reverse mode.

[jwulf74]

---

Yes it is.... and the above is the modified wiring diagram... straight forward and simple... but the prices of those air flow paddle switches are expensive.... looking for cheaper sources...

Check out the Lincoln sail switch assembly 369738. Not terribly expensive and look small enough. Does not appear to be rated for 12v and though. But that never stopped me before. It is only a switch to drive a low amp trigger...

[jwulf74]

Well.... here are my thoughts... need some additional input as to whether or not Nanny will complain... not sure if it reads anything back from the fan or not.

Slide1.jpgSlide2.jpgSlide3.jpg

The first pic is just for reference on how the relay typically gets hooked up. The second and third are dependent upon how the sail switch actually works... roughly $100 in parts if you find the right sites that have good prices.

Basically it should reverse the fan on a pre-2014 if the sail switch is not pushed back by wind pressure and run it normal if the switch is pushed back... though if it runs opposite, just need to switch T5 and T6.

Only real trick is mounting the sail switch in a good spot and water-proofing it somehow. I don't think it is as it sits.

Parts-wise:
Cole Hersee forward/reverse relay 24452
Relay cover part number 97297
Lincoln sail switch 369738
and I think Delphi Packard 12015792 (Male) and12010973 (Female)

Alternatively, you could use whatever switch you wanted to drive it... sail, momentary, or any other type.

Any thoughts out there if this would or would not work?

[Bob Denman]

We may all be overthinking Nanny's role in this whole effort...
Unless the bike shows an abnormal temperature reading; she should remain blissfully (for us!) unaware...

[jcthorne]

Agree, nanny likely will have no problem with this. There is no fan feedback circuit.

The sail switch is not weatherproof as supplied. The 3 connections are common, NO and NC. Microswitch might make a weatherproof version of this. The weatherproof switch assembly is already used on the bike, at the front truck to detect if its open. Same microswitch with a plain lever instead of the air sail. There is also a proper connector for the terminals on these switches, again see the front truck switch for the connector.

My only other worry about this is that air sail switches are pretty fragile in use. They work fine if properly mounted so as not to have the sail flailing in the wind and fatigue the little metal arm.

I think something like this might be a better option to detect air flow in this application:

http://www.pexsupply.com/Cleveland-C...-Hole-1-10-W-C

The high pressure side could easily be routed to in front of the oil cooler to detect incoming ram air when moving. There would be more than sufficient differential pressure of the air across the oil cooler to detect motion. Its also weather proof as supplied and only about $20.

[StanProff]

I like the air flow switch or just the simple thumb button to push when needed. That would be the simple way for me. If thumb gets tired I'd just take my thumb off of it. Luckily with my 2010 RTS and the climate i live in has never pushed me over the edge of being way to hot but it would be nice to be in control of the fan at stopped traffic and in town at very low speed. It is supposed to be in the upper 50's tomorrow so I'm going to test the original battery and see if the tender has kept it ready to start. (I plan to get a new battery this spring). I am going to pay more attention to the fan operation.
There has been great brain storming on this subject and has a lot of us thinking about the fan and air flow operation . Great response and great ideas!
My impression at this point? The reversing fan idea at low to no speed is too good an idea not to do. Can't wait to get the results of some real weather testing on this.