fan reversal

[Magdave]

Stopped in traffic; no load on an idling engine...
It won't damage anything....

Wanna bet your engine on that....er..wait... you have a 2014

[Bob Denman]

Please believe me; I'm KNOW that I'm not the shaprest pencil in the box...
But this is more about common sense, than it is engineering... (Oh wait ; that's not my strong suit either!)
There's no load on it as it idles... in fact; keeping a good supply of cooling to it, is probably more important that whatever air/fuel mix is being thrown in...
Unless you're actually adling for a "VERY long time" with the fans reversed, (However you wish to define that term...); getting things spinning correctly should bring everything back to a normal and uncorrupted state of tune in plenty of time to prevent Armageddon... Boom.jpg

[Magdave]

Please believe me; I'm KNOW that I'm not the shaprest pencil in the box...
But this is more about common sense, than it is engineering... (Oh wait ; that's not my strong suit either!)
There's no load on it as it idles... in fact; keeping a good supply of cooling to it, is probably more important that whatever air/fuel mix is being thrown in...
Unless you're actually adling for a "VERY long time" with the fans reversed, (However you wish to define that term...); getting things spinning correctly should bring everything back to a normal and uncorrupted state of tune in plenty of time to prevent Armageddon... Boom.jpg

Think about this Bob. I live outside of Myrtle Beach. There is basically 1 highway in (501) in the summertime traffic can be backed up for 15-20 miles at times. Ambient temps regularly reach 100 deg in the summer months. Obviously I avoid it as much as possible, but lets say you end up in the parking lot. You reverse fans to cool your legs and the temp sensor climbs to 180 just what do you think the ECM is going to do to the fuel mapping? OK traffic moves you give it gas and it starts to clear. How fast do you think that heated nacelle will cool down?1 min or lets say 5 min for the sensor to get back to ambient. During that time the road clears and people are flying so you goose it with the most lean fuel map that can be had. How is that going to affect your engine let alone the plastic parts in front of the fan that were not designed for that heat? That is why the engineers make the big bucks and the solution is slow in coming (as it should be).

[Magdave]

The idea of a relay off the brake light circuit is actually a good one if it were paired with a time delay relay set to about 2 sec. IE if your foot is on the brake for more than 2 seconds, the fan reverse relay switches. Time delay relays are pretty common items. I think I will start looking into this.
.

Excellent a Timer on delay relay is a very good idea off the brake light circuit but I would make it for a little longer 5 possibly 10sec to make sure you are actually stopping or stopped. Great thinking.

[Bob Denman]

My good fortune may also be my mis-fortune...
I have NEVER had to endure traffic like that...
It's a foreign concept to me.
To test out your situation; you may need to disbl your fan,; let the bike heat up a bit... and then put an external blower out in front of the nacelle, and see how long it takes for things to cool back down...

[Magdave]

My good fortune may also be my mis-fortune...
I have NEVER had to endure traffic like that...
It's a foreign concept to me.
To test out your situation; you may need to disbl your fan,; let the bike heat up a bit... and then put an external blower out in front of the nacelle, and see how long it takes for things to cool back down...

One size does not fit all Bob and I do not mind being the devil's advocate ( you should have figured that out by now)

[Bob Denman]

I've figured it all out!
You only need to move to a colder climate; where the roads are WIDE open and unencumbered by traffic!!
(Don't forget to buy a snowmobile too; for the inevitable break in the riding season! )

[Magdave]

I've figured it all out!
You only need to move to a colder climate; where the roads are WIDE open and unencumbered by traffic!!
(Don't forget to buy a snowmobile too; for the inevitable break in the riding season! )

I moved here from the Lake Erie snowbelt why on earth would I want to subject myself to that again? Are you nuts? Must be cabin fever setting in on you

[jcthorne]

Think about this Bob. I live outside of Myrtle Beach. There is basically 1 highway in (501) in the summertime traffic can be backed up for 15-20 miles at times. Ambient temps regularly reach 100 deg in the summer months. Obviously I avoid it as much as possible, but lets say you end up in the parking lot. You reverse fans to cool your legs and the temp sensor climbs to 180 just what do you think the ECM is going to do to the fuel mapping? OK traffic moves you give it gas and it starts to clear. How fast do you think that heated nacelle will cool down?1 min or lets say 5 min for the sensor to get back to ambient. During that time the road clears and people are flying so you goose it with the most lean fuel map that can be had. How is that going to affect your engine let alone the plastic parts in front of the fan that were not designed for that heat? That is why the engineers make the big bucks and the solution is slow in coming (as it should be).

Not worried about any of the plastic. The temp of the discharge are will never exceed about 215.

On the inlet air sensor thing, you might have a point depending on how quickly it registers the drop in temp. Best bet may be to relocate it away from the hot air.

[Bob Denman]

I moved here from the Lake Erie snowbelt why on earth would I want to subject myself to that again? Are you nuts? Must be cabin fever setting in on you

[3 Wheel Addict]

He's right you know! The traffic sucks at Myrtle beach, got stuck in traffic there once in a motorhome and had two birthdays before we got to Ocean lakes campground!

[Gundam]

...my bad, Magdave, jcthorne and others are correct, sorry guys..... I went out and did a test today, keep the reverse mode on while moving from slow to high speed, and you are right, coolant high temperature limb mode occurred... It's a good thing I also have override mode to cool things down in a jiffy.... But reverse mode works well for slow speed around town, engine did not over heat, it even managed to cool the radiator down sufficiently for it to cut off..... Only need to remember to switch back to normal when moving at a faster pace.....ah well, back to the drawing board..... I will definitely look into putting a speed controlled cut off switch to prevent it happening..... Thanks guys and again my humble apologies to everyone....

[Jeriatric]

...my bad, Magdave, jcthorne and others are correct, sorry guys..... I went out and did a test today, keep the reverse mode on while moving from slow to high speed, and you are right, coolant high temperature limb mode occurred... It's a good thing I also have override mode to cool things down in a jiffy.... But reverse mode works well for slow speed around town, engine did not over heat, it even managed to cool the radiator down sufficiently for it to cut off..... Only need to remember to switch back to normal when moving at a faster pace.....ah well, back to the drawing board..... I will definitely look into putting a speed controlled cut off switch to prevent it happening..... Thanks guys and again my humble apologies to everyone....

Team members need not apologize. Tho, I'm sure the gesture will be appreciated. Thank you for being a lab rat. Really!!

[jcthorne]

...my bad, Magdave, jcthorne and others are correct, sorry guys..... I went out and did a test today, keep the reverse mode on while moving from slow to high speed, and you are right, coolant high temperature limb mode occurred... It's a good thing I also have override mode to cool things down in a jiffy.... But reverse mode works well for slow speed around town, engine did not over heat, it even managed to cool the radiator down sufficiently for it to cut off..... Only need to remember to switch back to normal when moving at a faster pace.....ah well, back to the drawing board..... I will definitely look into putting a speed controlled cut off switch to prevent it happening..... Thanks guys and again my humble apologies to everyone....

Please, no apologies necessary. You are doing GREAT WORK and I for one am glad you are continuing to work on this. Please keep us posted on your results.

I was looking at this timer relay to drive a 30A DPDT power relay and drive it from the brake light switch:

http://www.amazon.com/Altronix-6062-.../dp/B0006TZEDS

I could not come up with an easy way to work from the speed sensor without upsetting Mary Poppins.

Just ideas.

[Gundam]

You are not getting it Sure it may work for a while. take a CPU or Power supply fan and jam it and apply power and wait for it to smoke. A fan is not made to be jammed over and over again and that is what keeping it running in reverse will do or it will pop a fuse your are exceeding the design parameters of the fan. I am not saying you have not done good work but leaving it in the reverse mode is not a good thing.

Yeah... you are right, I get it now, after I put it to the test, my bad and my apologies... I was thinking too much on the ideal theory side of things... a speed controlled cut off switch is a must.... I will work on it....

[NancysToy]

I still think the simplest solution is a momentary contact switch, It will only run in reverse while your thumb is on the button that way.

[Magdave]

Team members need not apologize. Tho, I'm sure the gesture will be appreciated. Thank you for being a lab rat. Really!!

For sure we were only debating the function not the experimenter. You are doing us all a service by trying it out.

[StanProff]

Working a time-delay, into a circuit fed by the brake light holds a lot of promise...

not a bad idea. I like the brake switch controlling the reversing of the fan. Lot of ideas here on this thread, good reading.

[Gundam]

Please, no apologies necessary. You are doing GREAT WORK and I for one am glad you are continuing to work on this. Please keep us posted on your results.

I was looking at this timer relay to drive a 30A DPDT power relay and drive it from the brake light switch:

http://www.amazon.com/Altronix-6062-.../dp/B0006TZEDS

I could not come up with an easy way to work from the speed sensor without upsetting Mary Poppins.

Just ideas.

Thanks, I appreciate that.... and yeah, in order not to upset the ECU, the signal must be processed directly from the speed sensor, can be done but not easy... using the timer relay is possible, but I couldn't find any details about setting and triggering it, whether it is positive voltage trigger or zero volt.... you may need to wire up the relay to be auto latching...

I try to work on the cut off using speed control first because I do not have the habit of keeping the foot on the brake pedal when the Spyder (or any vehicle for that matter) is stationary... to reduce wear and tear on the brake piston seals, brake lamps, consume battery power and also prevent glaring the drivers/riders behind....

[Gundam]

Speed cut off is a must.
May I suggest a second hall effect sensor on one of the wheels.
You could then get an average voltage from the pulse train.
The faster the speed the average voltage will climb until it reaches the supply rail.
A comparator then could be used to switch the relay off.

That's what I'm thinking too but unless this whole system can be bought in one single plug and play unit, the thought of matching and wiring individual components is a big headache.... I will try a different approach.... a different way of sensing the speed....

[Gundam]

I still think the simplest solution is a momentary contact switch, It will only run in reverse while your thumb is on the button that way.

Have you decided which thumb you want to use to press the button?.... won't your thumb be tired in a traffic jam?....

[Magdave]

Have you decided which thumb you want to use to press the button?.... won't your thumb be tired in a traffic jam?....

The simplest is not always the best. I like the time on delay set by the brake light idea. There is no reason not to have your foot on the pedal at stop you won't wear anything out unless you stand on it. I would set it at 10sec to start and see how it works.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/12v-timer-relay

[Gundam]

OK, how about an accelerometer.
https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/80

I have read it's specification, they all need signal processing, quite complicated, and you will need proper calibration to differentiate it from the vehicle vibration, unintended movement etc.... it must be something simple to make, installed and maintain to ensure reliability.... do you remember in the 1960s how bicycles power their headlamps?....the faster you pedal, the brighter the lights.... I was thinking about a non contact version...

[Gundam]

The simplest is not always the best. I like the time on delay set by the brake light idea. There is no reason not to have your foot on the pedal at stop you won't wear anything out unless you stand on it. I would set it at 10sec to start and see how it works.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/12v-timer-relay

My habit of not having my foot on the brake pedal starts after a few years of driving automatic transmission cars, you need to keep pressing the brakes to prevent the car from creeping forward.... I have worn out one brake master cylinder every two years or less, my current car is more than 8 years with the original brake master cylinder... I think I keep my foot off the brake... that's why I don't think the cut off using the brake light will work for me, it is a very good idea and will definitely work....

[jwulf74]

I have read it's specification, they all need signal processing, quite complicated, and you will need proper calibration to differentiate it from the vehicle vibration, unintended movement etc.... it must be something simple to make, installed and maintain to ensure reliability.... do you remember in the 1960s how bicycles power their headlamps?....the faster you pedal, the brighter the lights.... I was thinking about a non contact version...

Our bicycle speedometers use a magnetic system to calculate the speed of the bike... just a magnet on the spoke and a sensor on the fork. I think even the cheapest ones do that now. If a guy could reverse engineer one of those to trip a relay at x speed, that may be a possibility. way beyond my low level of expertise though.