Shifting problems from 1st to second. Not downshifting, No or very Low oil?

[Magdave]

Like Lamont shows there is a little oil on the stick even when cold

[NancysToy]

Be careful with the use of Mobil1. It is marked API-SM, so it does not meet BRP oil specs. Some have used it with success, but if you have clutch problems, this oil coiuld be the culprit. For best results use an oil that meets the specs in your manual.

[Magdave]

Be careful with the use of Mobil1. It is marked API-SM, so it does not meet BRP oil specs. Some have used it with success, but if you have clutch problems, this oil coiuld be the culprit. For best results use an oil that meets the specs in your manual.

SPECIFICATIONS

• API SERVICE: Exceeds API SG
• JASO (T903): JASO MA-2
• VISCOSITY: SAE 10W-40 // 20W-50
  http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7040925

[ARtraveler]

Thanks for the informative video.

[Bob Denman]

SPECIFICATIONS

• API SERVICE: Exceeds API SG
• JASO (T903): JASO MA-2
• VISCOSITY: SAE 10W-40 // 20W-50
  http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7040925

Thanks for this reminder!

[AZLife]

Just got back from a 40 minute ride in some the Sonoran Foothills back country, with a lot of twisties, small hills, and varying speed terrain. I am happy to report at this time that I did not have any further lurching from 1st gear to 2nd gear. Automatic downshifting now performs as it should without getting stuck in 2nd or 3rd at a stopped position, and overall shifting from 1st to 2nd gear was extremely smooth and quiet.

The Mobil1 oil I did use was an SAE 10W-40, but no, it wasn't MA2, only MA, so I will definitely not use that again. But I'm sure a quart and a half of BRP non-approved oil is better than a quart and a half of NO oil? Another 800 or so miles it will be in for it's 5000 mile service anyway, so it will get all new BRP approved oil at that time. After the ride an oil reading showed just slightly below full and before the ride at cold engine temperature the oil level was right at it was in Lamont's video. I just wish my oil panel was as easy to put on and take off as it was in Lamont's video. Mine takes quite a bit of force to go on/off (bet you somebody could make some good $$$ coming up with a new oil panel design that swings open and closed and can be latched closed)

But otherwise, I think the mission has been accomplished and this post has served it's purpose and hopefully will help others.

Thanks everybody! You guys rock

The Blue Recluse rides again!
BlueRecluse.jpg

[Magdave]

Just got back from a 40 minute ride in some the Sonoran Foothills back country, with a lot of twisties, small hills, and varying speed terrain. I am happy to report at this time that I did not have any further lurching from 1st gear to 2nd gear. Automatic downshifting now performs as it should without getting stuck in 2nd or 3rd at a stopped position, and overall shifting from 1st to 2nd gear was extremely smooth and quiet.

The Mobil1 oil I did use was an SAE 10W-40, but no, it wasn't MA2, only MA, so I will definitely not use that again. But I'm sure a quart and a half of BRP non-approved oil is better than a quart and a half of NO oil? Another 800 or so miles it will be in for it's 5000 mile service anyway, so it will get all new BRP approved oil at that time. After the ride an oil reading showed just slightly below full and before the ride at cold engine temperature the oil level was right at it was in Lamont's video. I just wish my oil panel was as easy to put on and take off as it was in Lamont's video. Mine takes quite a bit of force to go on/off (bet you somebody could make some good $$$ coming up with a new oil panel design that swings open and closed and can be latched closed)

But otherwise, I think the mission has been accomplished and this post has served it's purpose and hopefully will help others.

Thanks everybody! You guys rock

The Blue Recluse rides again!
BlueRecluse.jpg

Be glad it sticks when taking off. Mine did too before I took it in for service and tech must have lubed it. Many have lost them after oil changes. Make sure you tell the tech NOT to mess with it. I now use and extra Velcro strip to make sure mine does not pop off. I also saw a mod by an owner there that added a wire cable to the cover.

[billybovine]

Just got back from a 40 minute ride in some the Sonoran Foothills back country, with a lot of twisties, small hills, and varying speed terrain. I am happy to report at this time that I did not have any further lurching from 1st gear to 2nd gear. Automatic downshifting now performs as it should without getting stuck in 2nd or 3rd at a stopped position, and overall shifting from 1st to 2nd gear was extremely smooth and quiet.

The Mobil1 oil I did use was an SAE 10W-40, but no, it wasn't MA2, only MA, so I will definitely not use that again. But I'm sure a quart and a half of BRP non-approved oil is better than a quart and a half of NO oil? Another 800 or so miles it will be in for it's 5000 mile service anyway, so it will get all new BRP approved oil at that time. After the ride an oil reading showed just slightly below full and before the ride at cold engine temperature the oil level was right at it was in Lamont's video. I just wish my oil panel was as easy to put on and take off as it was in Lamont's video. Mine takes quite a bit of force to go on/off (bet you somebody could make some good $$$ coming up with a new oil panel design that swings open and closed and can be latched closed)

But otherwise, I think the mission has been accomplished and this post has served it's purpose and hopefully will help others.

Thanks everybody! You guys rock

The Blue Recluse rides again!
BlueRecluse.jpg

Happy to hear it's fixed.
I agree do not use anymore Mobil 1 since it is rated SM and on page 127 of your owners manual it states SM oil will damage your clutch.

[Bob Denman]

Happy to hear it's fixed.

[NancysToy]

SPECIFICATIONS

• API SERVICE: Exceeds API SG
• JASO (T903): JASO MA-2
• VISCOSITY: SAE 10W-40 // 20W-50
  http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7040925

Please note that these are not BRP specs...they are the specs for a specific (not stated) Castrol oil. I believe in the use of JASO MA-2 oils, but BRP does not make any JASO specification at all. They do warn against the use of API-SM oils (prior to the 2014 RT). The BRP specs are in your Owners Guide. Threads with individual owners' preferences can be found by the dozens if you search here.

[BajaRon]

Thanks for all the replies. Went to Walmart and picked up a quart of the best stuff they had: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 Full Synthetic oil ($9.97). Before adding any oil, checked one last time with the Spyder at normal operating temperature on flat level ground and there was absolutely no sign of oil on the dipstick. Added half a quart of the oil, let the Spyder idle again for a few minutes, checked oil again, still no visible sign of oil. Added the remaining half a quart and repeated the same process, still no visible sign of oil on dipstick. Another trip to Walmart to purchase another two quarts of oil this time, just in case. Added another half quart and that finally did it. Oil appeared slightly below the full line. Finally!

I will ride it today and see if this resolves the shifting issues and will certainly monitor the oil immediately after each ride today to see if the readings are consistent.

....stay tuned for the results

Whoa Nelly! That is WAY LOW!

You'll need to pay attention for possible slippage using the SM rated oil (as mentioned by others). While BRP does not spec out MA-2 rated oil, it is a very good idea to use one just so you keep that clutch happy.

[AZLife]

Here's an old SpyderLovers post regarding the use of the Mobile 1 4T oil:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...0-UPDATE/page2

Here are pictures of the oil that I purchased and used today (note the arrows):

oil1-1.jpg oil2-2.jpg

Page 127 in my manual shows this:

manual-1.jpg


So according to the recommendation in the manual, the oil must meet the requirements for API service SL, SJ, SH or SG.

Looking on the back of the Mobile 1 Racing 4T can, it clearly states it's a Jaso MA rating and "for the use in applications requiring API SH, SG, CF".

Guess this could be interpreted differently, but the use of the word "or" in the manual kind of says to me that it can used for applications requiring SL or SH or SG. And the back of the can shows SH and SG. Looks like the oil does meet the requirements based on that interpretation anyway. But then the "Notice" in the manual is where a contradiction comes into play. It says "do not use a motor oil meeting the API service SM". On the back of the Mobile 1 can it does show something about an "SM".

Not being an oil engineer, I don't have a clue what to make of it.....but i just thought I'd provide some more info on the Mobile 1 I used today and my interpretation of the recommendations. Either way, there are many other oils that can be used, and I'm not stuck to the Mobile 1 by any means. All I can say is my Spyder is shifting great now

It has been very good/helpful to hear the thoughts of others.

[finless]

FYI, my 2011 has burned a full quart of BRP oil in 2200 miles. From reading here that's a little more than most but not alarming. Or should I worry about it?

Also when checking the oil after a good ride and fully up to temp, the level drops pretty fast after you shut down. First check is fine. Screw the stick in and out again and it has dropped 1/4. Do it again and its down 1/2 and so on. I have to say checking the oil on the spyder is sure screwy and can leave you wondering WTH is going on. That is until you realize that it works this way. I think this is a cause for many to probably over fill?

Bob

[NancysToy]

Here's an old SpyderLovers post regarding the use of the Mobile 1 4T oil:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...0-UPDATE/page2

Here are pictures of the oil that I purchased and used today (note the arrows):

oil1-1.jpg oil2-2.jpg

Page 127 in my manual shows this:

manual-1.jpg


So according to the recommendation in the manual, the oil must meet the requirements for API service SL, SJ, SH or SG.

Looking on the back of the Mobile 1 Racing 4T can, it clearly states it's a Jaso MA rating and "for the use in applications requiring API SH, SG, CF".

Guess this could be interpreted differently, but the use of the word "or" in the manual kind of says to me that it can used for applications requiring SL or SH or SG. And the back of the can shows SH and SG. Looks like the oil does meet the requirements based on that interpretation anyway. But then the "Notice" in the manual is where a contradiction comes into play. It says "do not use a motor oil meeting the API service SM". On the back of the Mobile 1 can it does show something about an "SM".

Not being an oil engineer, I don't have a clue what to make of it.....but i just thought I'd provide some more info on the Mobile 1 I used today and my interpretation of the recommendations. Either way, there are many other oils that can be used, and I'm not stuck to the Mobile 1 by any means. All I can say is my Spyder is shifting great now

It has been very good/helpful to hear the thoughts of others.

If you will look under the "JASO MA" on the label, you will see that it is also certified API-SM. That is prohibited according to BRP specs. Most oils list all the specs they meet, including the previous versions. Where use of a certain additive package or test protocol is prohibited, if that is listed on the label at all, the manufacturer intends for you to avoid it. Suit yourself, but I would stay away from Mobil1 just to be safe and to keep my warranty intact in case of clutch failure. JMHO

[BajaRon]

FYI, my 2011 has burned a full quart of BRP oil in 2200 miles. From reading here that's a little more than most but not alarming. Or should I worry about it?

Also when checking the oil after a good ride and fully up to temp, the level drops pretty fast after you shut down. First check is fine. Screw the stick in and out again and it has dropped 1/4. Do it again and its down 1/2 and so on. I have to say checking the oil on the spyder is sure screwy and can leave you wondering WTH is going on. That is until you realize that it works this way. I think this is a cause for many to probably over fill?

Bob

Off hand I would say there is something wrong here. With a dry sump system there is a check valve designed to prevent oil from re-entering the small oil sump in the engine. Otherwise there will be too much oil in the engine at start-up. The scavagening pump will fix this fairly quickly, but it isn't good at start-up.

I would say a quart at 2,200 miles is excessive. I used a little less than 1 quart at 6,400 miles. But I really don't know what an average amount would be.

If you will look under the "JASO MA" on the label, you will see that it is also certified API-SM. That is prohibited according to BRP specs. Most oils list all the specs they meet, including the previous versions. Where use of a certain additive package or test protocol is prohibited, if that is listed on the label at all, the manufacturer intends for you to avoid it. Suit yourself, but I would stay away from Mobil1 just to be safe and to keep my warranty intact in case of clutch failure. JMHO

I agree with Scotty here. It's really pretty simple.

Yes, BRP is ok with using an oil designed for applications requiring and SH, SG, or CF UNLNLESS it also contains additives which meet API-SM specs.

Some wet clutch machines are designed to handle the SM additives. Our Spyder is not.

So, how much SM rated oil does it take to get slippage? In my opinion, it's best not to find out. A new clutch is much more expensive than many oil changes.

[NancysToy]

Off hand I would say there is something wrong here. With a dry sump system there is a check valve designed to prevent oil from re-entering the small oil sump in the engine. Otherwise there will be too much oil in the engine at start-up. The scavenging pump will fix this fairly quickly, but it isn't good at start-up.

The usual cause of the level dropping quickly is dissipation of entrained bubbles from the return oil. Some oils retain the bubbles (foam) more readily than others. I find that the oil levels are the most stable if the initial reading is done from 1-3 minutes after the engine is shut off. Too soon and it reads a little high due to the foam (all dry sump engines foam the oil a bit, as the scavenging pump is not always fully immersed, so it can pump air as well as oil out of the sump). Read it after too long a wait and oil can cool and read low, or drain back to the sump, depending on the condition of the check valve and the position of the oil pump rotors. If your engine drains quickly or the tank drains dry, your oiling system should be examined. In that case your check may be bad or the oil pump may be scored or badly worn.

[Dizneyman]

As always Scotty. you are a wealth of information and have a way of explaining things that makes it easy for me to understand.

Thanks my friend!!!

[missouriboy]

...Read it after too long a wait and oil can cool and read low, or drain back to the sump, depending on the condition of the check valve and the position of the oil pump rotors...

I had toyed with the idea of learning how the stick would read cold by checking according to manual procedures, then waiting overnight to see where this registers with a cold engine...

According to Scotty's post above, this is NOT acceptable! That makes sense too, else why wouldn't BRP just calibrate the dipstick to work that way? (Like an oilpan dipstick.)
So I agree, Scotty's posts are worth their weight in gold!!

[AZLife]

I have a 2013 RT-S with 4300 miles on it. Last service done at 1000 miles back in October. The last two weeks or so I have noticed some extremely rough shifting from 1^st to second. i get an unusually loud clunking nose, louder and rougher than the norm. At times, the Spyder will rear backwards and then forwards (lurching) when shifting into second from a normal shifting speed of about 30 mph. Kind of like a mechanical bull trying to throw me off . Other times when coming to a stop, the Spyder won't downshift to 1st gear, sometimes sticking in 3rd or 2nd gear even when in a full stop. I've also had an experience where I lost power/acceleration when making a left turn through an intersection and it kind of coasted for a few feet before regaining acceleration power (I was not going fast, nor making a sharp left. I highly doubt that this was due to the "nanny" as it wouldn't allow me to do anything).

So, I decided to check the engine oil last night. Followed the directions in the manual. Had just come back from a short ride, let the bike sit for a few minutes with engine off. Turned it back on (around 3 bars or so), then shut it down and checked the dipstick (after a wipe and re-insertion). No oil, not even a drop on the dipstick. Tried this several times. A flashlight showed some oil appearing, but not a lot. Have never seen any oil dripping or any stains on garage floor.

Here are some of my many questions that hopefully some of you will have experience with:
1. Could the shifting problems mentioned above be from a lack of oil?
2. Where could the oil have gone?
3. Could it be that the previous mechanic didn't fill up the oil canister?
4. Could the engine be damaged already due the very low oil?
5. Why has the oil light not come on by now?
6. I have NOT checked the oil since the 1st service. How normal is it to do this, even though the manual recommends it? Guess I will do it more often now.

Feedback, thoughts greatly appreciated, especially what you think I should do now, short of taking it in right away for it's 5000 mile service. (maybe add oil myself to see if it helps the problems?)

Thanks, all, and Merry Christmas to you!

Update: 01/08/2013

Spyder continued to run great after adding the Mobil 1, but I decided to take the Spyder into the Dealer for routine maintenance and to get the oil changed out. Getting home from the dealer after a 45 minute ride, I was unable to get an accurate reading on the dipstick. There was oil on the entire dipstick. Next day tried it while warm again, and still the same result. The next morning checked while totally cold and oil level clearly showed FULL. So it appears that the Dealer incorrectly filled the oil and overfilled it? I can't believe it. Spyder going back into the shop soon for a new fuel sending unit (pump module?). I'll have them remove some oil at that time and put them on the spot about why it's showing full while cold.

[NancysToy]

Update: 01/08/2013

Spyder continued to run great after adding the Mobil 1, but I decided to take the Spyder into the Dealer for routine maintenance and to get the oil changed out. Getting home from the dealer after a 45 minute ride, I was unable to get an accurate reading on the dipstick. There was oil on the entire dipstick. Next day tried it while warm again, and still the same result. The next morning checked while totally cold and oil level clearly showed FULL. So it appears that the Dealer incorrectly filled the oil and overfilled it? I can't believe it. Spyder going back into the shop soon for a new fuel sending unit (pump module?). I'll have them remove some oil at that time and put them on the spot about why it's showing full while cold.

Maybe it's time to find a new dealer...or consider doing some of the maintenance yourself. You can remove some oil using a small length of tubing (or a turkey baster). Just insert the tubing into the oil, put your thumb over the end, and pulll out the tubing. Drain the oil into a waste container by removing your thumb, and repeat as many times as necessary. It is slow, but cheap and effective. BTW, make sure you are not reading the oil level too quickly after you shut off the hot engine. It takes 30-60 seconds for most of the bubbles to subside. I usually try to read within 1-2 minutes.

[Bob Denman]

So I agree, Scotty's posts are worth their weight in gold!!

Maybe it's time to find a new dealer...

Scotty's two-cents is CLEARLY worth thirty-seven dollars... and change!

I ask Scotty.jpg