Making the 2013 Spyder RT-S "Perfect"

[spacetiger]

From what I know and from what I've researched, this is not uncommon for V-Twin engines. Especially for air cooled engines where the rear cylinder gets less air flow to it. With a liquid cooled V-Twin, I have seen where there are still other factors that can have the same effect, but are not as prominent due to the liquid cooling. I wonder if that is what is going on with mine. Either way, the AutoTune will fix it

Question: on the original bodywork below the frunk exposed to the road - did you see any sign of scraping?

i like the look of the bumpskid addition too.

Jerry

[stewartj239]

Question: on the original bodywork below the frunk exposed to the road - did you see any sign of scraping?

i like the look of the bumpskid addition too.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry.

And yes, I did notice scraping / scuffing on the OEM skip plate under the frunk. I am perplexed at to where it came from or how it happened. I have never run anything over or even hit anything on the road for all that matters. Unless it is was from the typical cinders or stones that get kicked up - that is all I can figure.

[MarkLawson]

For the sake of clarity, the Spyder brakes are on all three wheels, not just on the rear. You referred to the foot brake pedal as the rear brake and complained that there were no front brakes. That is an old way to phrase the brakes as they apply to the Spyder as there are front and rear brakes. The difference is that there is only one method to engage them, the foot lever.

Now, you called the brakes 'unsafe'. Out of curiosity, do you also install a hand brake lever on your automobiles and trucks, or do you drive those vehicles in an 'unsafe' brake condition, only having the foot pedal to engage all four wheel brakes?

I know I'm nitpicking, but it's a matter of perspective. You learned to brake properly on your two wheelers, as you should have, by applying both the front and rear brakes at the same time. When the front brake is controlled only by the hand lever & the rear brake is controlled only by the foot lever, you have to learn to brake properly by using both controls. On the Spyder, the brakes are linked, so there is no way to brake only the front wheels or the rear wheel short of major modification to the total braking system.

As illustrated in normal driving of cars and trucks, we would never consider it 'unsafe' to have only a foot brake. As such, I would disagree that it is 'unsafe' having the same arrangement on the Spyder.

[spacetiger]

Thanks Jerry.

And yes, I did notice scraping / scuffing on the OEM skip plate under the frunk. I am perplexed at to where it came from or how it happened. I have never run anything over or even hit anything on the road for all that matters. Unless it is was from the typical cinders or stones that get kicked up - that is all I can figure.

My theory - the bike is bottoming out on stock suspension; for sure if you ride 2 up likely if you are more than 210lbs. That puts front down 5.9''; hit a pot hole on one side and you scrape.

You have changed front shocks so heavier springs will keep you out of trouble.

Perhaps others reading this will go look it they have stock suspension. I bet all have scrapped front underside if they have stock shocks

jerry

[stewartj239]

For the sake of clarity, the Spyder brakes are on all three wheels, not just on the rear. You referred to the foot brake pedal as the rear brake and complained that there were no front brakes. That is an old way to phrase the brakes as they apply to the Spyder as there are front and rear brakes. The difference is that there is only one method to engage them, the foot lever.

Now, you called the brakes 'unsafe'. Out of curiosity, do you also install a hand brake lever on your automobiles and trucks, or do you drive those vehicles in an 'unsafe' brake condition, only having the foot pedal to engage all four wheel brakes?

I know I'm nitpicking, but it's a matter of perspective. You learned to brake properly on your two wheelers, as you should have, by applying both the front and rear brakes at the same time. When the front brake is controlled only by the hand lever & the rear brake is controlled only by the foot lever, you have to learn to brake properly by using both controls. On the Spyder, the brakes are linked, so there is no way to brake only the front wheels or the rear wheel short of major modification to the total braking system.

As illustrated in normal driving of cars and trucks, we would never consider it 'unsafe' to have only a foot brake. As such, I would disagree that it is 'unsafe' having the same arrangement on the Spyder.

When I say "unsafe", I am referring to my perspective on how I ride a bike. I am not saying that the rear brake does not work. I am coming off of 2 wheels and my last bike had linked brakes just like the Spyder. With that said, with the motorcycle, I would do 80% of my braking using the front brake lever only - which actuated the front and rear brake calipers. The benefit of having the front brake lever is that you can keep your finger on it and be ready to brake in an instant. You cannot do that with the rear brake as you cannot ride it with your foot. It takes way more time to react with a foot break alone than it does with a hand brake - when your finger is right there on it. Therefore, for myself, having a rear brake only is indeed "unsafe" which is why I am adding the front brake. I think that people who have ridden 2 wheels prior to riding the Spyder will know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Magdave]

When I say "unsafe", I am referring to my perspective on how I ride a bike. I am not saying that the rear brake does not work. I am coming off of 2 wheels and my last bike had linked brakes just like the Spyder. With that said, with the motorcycle, I would do 80% of my braking using the front brake lever only - which actuated the front and rear brake calipers. The benefit of having the front brake lever is that you can keep your finger on it and be ready to brake in an instant. You cannot do that with the rear brake as you cannot ride it with your foot. It takes way more time to react with a foot break alone than it does with a hand brake - when your finger is right there on it. Therefore, for myself, having a rear brake only is indeed "unsafe" which is why I am adding the front brake. I think that people who have ridden 2 wheels prior to riding the Spyder will know exactly what I'm talking about.

The bias may seem to favor the rear on the Spyders from what I have read. The rear pads wear out long before the front. Of course there are 2 sets in front and that may have some effect on them lasting longer all things being equal.

[GeoffCee]

ISCI Front Brake - I don't understand why the Spyder did not come with one. I've ridden 2 wheels for the last 25 years and I always keep a finger on the front brake. The Spyder's rear brake by itself is lame and in my opinion, unsafe.

I too have a long history of riding bikes and like you I find myself reaching for a non-existent front brake lever even after almost 3 years of Spyder riding. I have had to make two emergency stops in that time where the Spyder's brakes saved the day, both times riding 2-up, once with a stack of luggage on board.

The brake pedal doesn't operate the rear brake "by itself", it sends the ABS-controlled braking effort to the pads on all three wheels simultaneously. IMO the braking system is one area which requires no improvement - it isn't the Spyder's fault that I still reach for the front brake, I'm just an old dog who these days learns new tricks real slow.

[stewartj239]

The bias may seem to favor the rear on the Spyders from what I have read.

I have seen that stated somewhere else as well. If true, it would seem odd to me since the majority of your braking is done by the front end. I've got the shop manual - I'll thumb through it to see if they talk at all about the ratio.

[stewartj239]

IMO the braking system is one area which requires no improvement - it isn't the Spyder's fault that I still reach for the front brake, I'm just an old dog who these days learns new tricks real slow.

I agree. The rear brake does its job. After 4500 miles, I can't tell you how many times I still grab for the front brake lever that isn't there which is the whole justification for me adding it. However, if BRP wants to attract more motorcycle riders to the Sypder - who are accustomed to having a front brake lever, and the fact that an RT-S retails for $27K, I was unpleasantly surprised when it did not come with the front hand brake.

[GeoffCee]

I agree. The rear brake does its job. After 4500 miles, I can't tell you how many times I still grab for the front brake lever that isn't there which is the whole justification for me adding it. However, if BRP wants to attract more motorcycle riders to the Sypder - who are accustomed to having a front brake lever, and the fact that an RT-S retails for $27K, I was unpleasantly surprised when it did not come with the front hand brake.

It's in the eye of the beholder, as always. When first I sat on an RT-SE5 I remember thinking how neat and uncluttered the bars looked without levers. Then I espied the Command Center and switch gear on the left and knew that my digits would be on a steep learning curve if ever I was to buy one of these classy runabouts. Yes, it was darned expensive to buy (and to insure) but we've had great pleasure from our "investment", more than we would have gotten from watching our savings stagnate in a bank, they're paying out such miserly rates of interest.

[jcthorne]

I agree. The rear brake does its job. After 4500 miles, I can't tell you how many times I still grab for the front brake lever that isn't there which is the whole justification for me adding it. However, if BRP wants to attract more motorcycle riders to the Sypder - who are accustomed to having a front brake lever, and the fact that an RT-S retails for $27K, I was unpleasantly surprised when it did not come with the front hand brake.

The 3 wheel ABS system automatically adjusts the front to rear bias ratio. Its not a fixed ration. Manual front to rear modulation of the brakes is an outdated tech. The electronics does it far faster and more reliably than you ever could. Besides, if you are coming from a 2 wheeler, the bias front to rear is entirely different for the reverse trike if there were a manual control. Let the very sophisticated (for a bike) brake system do its job.

The hand brake lever is not missing, its an outdated control mechanism that has no place on the Spyder. Learn to use the controls on the Spyder they way they are designed rather than adding unsafe mechanisms to manually apply the front brakes alone. The brake pedal is NOT a rear brake.


The reason the rear brake pads wear faster than the front is due to their use by the traction control and vehicle stability control systems.

[Bob Denman]

Mash that pedal; the bike stops quickly with a fair amount of feel....
What more do you want?
(Besides a lever? )

[GeoffCee]

The reason the rear brake pads wear faster than the front is due to their use by the traction control and vehicle stability control systems.

Surely, traction control is an engine power-output management function, as is the SCS?

I can envisage a heap of problems if the rear brake was used to correct traction or stability excesses induced by the rider. Brakes applying themselves fills me with horror! (Unless it's an up-market Mercedes with collision avoidance).

Whatever the reason turns out to be for more rapid rear pad wear on the Spyder, I'm hopeful that this cannot be it.

[spacetiger]

The 3 wheel ABS system automatically adjusts the front to rear bias ratio. Its not a fixed ration. Manual front to rear modulation of the brakes is an outdated tech. The electronics does it far faster and more reliably than you ever could. Besides, if you are coming from a 2 wheeler, the bias front to rear is entirely different for the reverse trike if there were a manual control. Let the very sophisticated (for a bike) brake system do its job.

The hand brake lever is not missing, its an outdated control mechanism that has no place on the Spyder. Learn to use the controls on the Spyder they way they are designed rather than adding unsafe mechanisms to manually apply the front brakes alone. The brake pedal is NOT a rear brake.


The reason the rear brake pads wear faster than the front is due to their use by the traction control and vehicle stability control systems.

Some valid points but I think Stewart is going with a modified setup because it has better reaction time potential. There is nothing to preclude him using the brake pedal a few seconds later.

In stopping there are 2 comPonents, reaction time and actual braking. I believe if you ride in lots of heavy traffic you need to have the best braking possible so anything to help out is good. I would consider this an option except the cost is so high. I believe there are other options that cost lest to help on braking part; I have to retrain myself to reduce reaction time.

I do enjory reading farkle projects so I say keep posting Stewart

BTW, who else has checked there stock frunk underside to see if they have scrape marks?

jerry

[jcthorne]

Surely, traction control is an engine power-output management function, as is the SCS?

I can envisage a heap of problems if the rear brake was used to correct traction or stability excesses induced by the rider. Brakes applying themselves fills me with horror! (Unless it's an up-market Mercedes with collision avoidance).

Whatever the reason turns out to be for more rapid rear pad wear on the Spyder, I'm hopeful that this cannot be it.

Brake application has been a standard part of traction control systems since ABS became a normal part of automotive tech. IE its on almost all cars and the Spyder.

[spacetiger]

Edit: self removal

[scarecrow]

I can't wait till it's all done and gets some miles tested on the spyder. I too am having some heat problems, but not enough to keep the two of us off the spyder yet.
Having a brake lever on the handle bars is of personal preference. It still operates the spyder system. It just starts at a differant point. The system is costly,but I see it is very well built. I have also seen a tube video of one using a M109r clutch cable that also looks good at a 3rd of the cost. Just like everyone else I have been riding for over 57 years. Driven many two wheelers. Some with drum brakes , Some with just a rear brake, (Chopper days.lol) Some with bias dics brakes , and many without bias brakes. I do like the idea of having that option and many others may also. Those that are not able to push down on a foot brake, but still want to feel the wind in there face. Again it personal preference.

[stewartj239]

Some valid points

Yes, all points are valid and it gets a number of different points of view on the topic for discussion. All good feedback.

I think Stewart is going with a modified setup because it has better reaction time potential. There is nothing to preclude him using the brake pedal a few seconds later.

Yes! This is the only reason. The Brembo brakes on the Spyder are awesome, but it takes more time to use your right foot to apply the brakes than it does to squeeze a lever - when your finger is right on it.

I honestly am having a VERY hard time braking the Spyder using just the rear brake pedal. I am 45 years old, I've ridden street bikes for the last 25 years and ridden MX for the last 35 years. MX is definitely heavier on the front brake and I still ride with my sons. Having a front brake lever is burned into me and on the Spyder, not having it does make me feel unsafe. Unsafe not because the Spyder doesn't have good brakes, but because my reaction time is reduced by not having the brake lever.

[stewartj239]

The system is costly,but I see it is very well built. I have also seen a tube video of one using a M109r clutch cable that also looks good at a 3rd of the cost.

I have seen a couple of YouTube videos that show custom made versions of a front brake / lever assembly. I couldn't get enough information out of them to determine whether it is something worth pursuing or if I could even make it myself.

The ISCI setup is expensive, but it has such great reviews from people that I figured it was a quality product. I have it in my possession and it does look to be a quality product. I can't wait to get it installed and actually try it out.

[GeoffCee]

Brake application has been a standard part of traction control systems since ABS became a normal part of automotive tech. IE its on almost all cars and the Spyder.

Thanks for that, the automatic use of brakes in TCS's had somehow passed me by. Wikipedia carries a full explanation.

[stewartj239]

I called the shop today that is doing the ceramic coating for the headers & Y-pipe to check on them. He told me that they are buried and that it will be at least a couple of weeks before he can get to them. I've known the shop owner for over 25 years and I know that we are in the midst of snowmobile season and he is trying to get caught up on that work, so I told him that I can wait. But honestly, I can't

[Bob Denman]

Hang in there!!

[stewartj239]

I got the rear Elka shock installed this weekend. I can honestly say that I had no perceived issues with the stock shock. All of my complaints were with the front shocks, but since I was replacing the fronts with the Elkas, I figured it would offset the balance of the Spyder if I didn't replace the rear shock as well. This is the 1+R shock and compared to the stock shock, you can clearly see the difference in quality. It looks much more solid in design as well. The 2nd picture was taken from the right side of the bike. I have the purge valve facing the front of the bike and the rebound adjuster facing out the right side at the bottom. I got a good tip from a friend on the forum who said that there are reports of the lower shock bolts bending, so he hooked me up with a hardened steel replacement bolt instead.

Elka Rear - 1.jpg Elka Rear - 2.jpg

[spacetiger]

I got the rear Elka shock installed this weekend. I can honestly say that I had no perceived issues with the stock shock. All of my complaints were with the front shocks, but since I was replacing the fronts with the Elkas, I figured it would offset the balance of the Spyder if I didn't replace the rear shock as well. This is the 1+R shock and compared to the stock shock, you can clearly see the difference in quality. It looks much more solid in design as well. The 2nd picture was taken from the right side of the bike. I have the purge valve facing the front of the bike and the rebound adjuster facing out the right side at the bottom. I got a good tip from a friend on the forum who said that there are reports of the lower shock bolts bending, so he hooked me up with a hardened steel replacement bolt instead.

Elka Rear - 1.jpg Elka Rear - 2.jpg

if you take a look at your stock rear shock you really can't see the rubber bumper on the shaft. My guess is you cannot see it because it is pushed up at the top. If you pull it down, you will see it has stress lines on the side indicating you were essentially riding on that bumper all the time. I can see BRP changed the spring from 2012 to 2013, less lower rate coils at the bottom, but there is still too much give in the lower rate compared to the 2" working range of the shock. Elka uses a linear rate spring that is close to the stiffest portion of the stock shock (look at the gap spacing between coils). Depending on the preload set on them, they should not bottom out.

Even though you are riding on higher rated springs, the ride should be much smoother because you are riding on springs and not a hard rubber bumper.

I don't have the rebound adjustability, but solved my stiffness issue for about a $1.

Keep posting.
Jerry

[stewartj239]

if you take a look at your stock rear shock you really can't see the rubber bumper on the shaft. My guess is you cannot see it because it is pushed up at the top. If you pull it down, you will see it has stress lines on the side indicating you were essentially riding on that bumper all the time.

I just checked the stock shock and you are correct. Maybe my front OEM shocks were so bad, that I didn't notice or think that the rear was that bad.

I don't have the rebound adjustability, but solved my stiffness issue for about a $1.

Come on! You can't make that statement and NOT tell us what you did