Potential to Make Some Money - Ram Air Scoops

[DJFaninTN]

Has anyone tried a product called Zircotec? I think it is produced in England but there are distributors here in the states. It is used in F1 cars and airplanes as well. This isn't something you can go pick up a Lowe's.

http://www.zircotec.com/page/heatshield_products/97

[3 Wheel Addict]

I'll go a step further and this might help make some more sense.

We run well over 300hp supercharged motors in our jetskis. Liquid cooled. Those motors sit down in a hull under a seat. There are no direct airflow vents for air flowing over the motors for any type of motor cooling. The only vents are at the rear for the air intake on the motor/supercharger to draw in air for combustion.
Tuned properly we have NO overheating issues and no heat issues around the seat, dash etc etc.

One key factor here though is the water cooled exhaust system. I you did not have that the ski's would burn up due to exhaust heat.

[rojodawg]

Other facts of life . . . melting master cylinders, melting brake cables, melting charcoal canisters are not normal . . . there is an issue, here. If you don't have that problem with your Spyder, well, thats just great . . . good for you. However, to cavalierly discount the validity of the issues almost half of 2013 Spyder riders are experienceing, according to the survey someone else conducted here is fatuous . . . I've ridden since the 60's and never had this kind of problem, before.

The most "fatuous" statement in this thread is that almost half of the 2013 owners are experiencing heat problems. With thousands of owners, you can't take a survey with only a handful of responses and draw any legitimate conclusions. Based on dealer reports of the percentage of 2013 spyders showing any evidence of excessive heat while performing the recall work, the actual number of "problem spyders" appears to be very low, most likely in the single digit percentages.

The vast majority of spyder owners have expressed nothing but support and encouragement on this forum to those few riders who are experiencing excess heat. I'm thankful my 2013 hasn't shown any problems, and I hope the ones that do run hot are fixed asap so everyone can get on the road and enjoy their ride. But it does get so, so tiring reading the constant complaints about the 2013's, and the all too frequent advice from some that no one should even consider buying a 2013 because they are all worthless. It's simply not true. With a vocal minority throwing all of the 2013's into the category of worthless because a few have problems, it's no wonder the trade-in value for everyone is low.

Again, I'm sorry if you have excessive heat, but please try to keep things in perspective and avoid inflammatory claims that do no good for anyone.

[DrewNJ]

One key factor here though is the water cooled exhaust system. I you did not have that the ski's would burn up due to exhaust heat.

Exactly. Water cooled exhaust. Again, There is NO ambient air surface cooling on ANY of it. It's all water cooled.

So, that tells you even more that a properly tuned engine does not produce heat concerns nor need any airflow across the surface for cooling.
All motorcycles and cars as well as all spyders have exhaust systems. I don't think the exhaust heat is the root of the issue. Maybe it's a source of that person comfort heat though...


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[DrewNJ]

It isn't just discomfort.. . . my concern is the hidden damage going on inside.

Also, if this is your only concern then take all those extra bolt on vents, pipe wraps, and all the BRP self stick foil and chuck it right in the trash! None of that is going to help with potential internal motor damage.

Again, not at all trying to be a dick. Just honestly trying to help. I really want all those that are having issues to get them resolved correctly.




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[Dan McNally]

Ok, so if it's a motor running hot concern has anyone actually checked afr to see what is going on? Remember, it's liquid cooled so adding air under the plastic isn't going to do much, if anything, to fix the problem. Air under the plastic will help with rider comfort . . .



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Never said my engine was running hot . . . the coolant works as designed and the temperature guage holds true at four bars, most of the time. The issue that this thread was made to address is heat coming off the engine and pipes, under the tupperware, that has nowhere to go due to a lack of ventilation. It gets too hot inside the tupperware, very hot . . . hot enough to melt plastic and rubber parts and cause the gas tank to boil. On a long ride, that intense heat works its way up under the seat around the seat lock and other small gaps. It even killed a cell phone in the glove box. There needs to be a way to ventilate that space to prevent the intense heat buildup.

[DrewNJ]

Never said my engine was running hot . . . the coolant works as designed and the temperature guage holds true at four bars, most of the time. The issue that this thread was made to address is heat coming off the engine and pipes, under the tupperware, that has nowhere to go due to a lack of ventilation. It gets too hot inside the tupperware, very hot . . . hot enough to melt plastic and rubber parts and cause the gas tank to boil. On a long ride, that intense heat works its way up under the seat around the seat lock and other small gaps. It even killed a cell phone in the glove box. There needs to be a way to ventilate that space to prevent the intense heat buildup.

ahh...ok. Just general ventilation then. I was under the impression that the heat complaints had to do with the 13' problem that everyone talks about. Not the normal personally uncomfortable heat that becomes trapped under the same plastic that has been on the machines since their inception in 2010. cool!

[nhoj]

Exactly. Water cooled exhaust. ...So, that tells you even more that a properly tuned engine does not produce heat concerns nor need any airflow across the surface for cooling.

I'm confused by your statement above. In a motor vessel the water cooled exhaust removes the heat and sends it out the exhaust as 'hot water'. Point here is it 'removes the heat'. Even a poorly tuned marine engine will remove that heat as long as the water pump(s) are functional. In our Spyders the headers are the largest source of heat and unless that heat is removed particularly under the tuperware you may experience previous described heat issues.

[Dan McNally]

The most "fatuous" statement in this thread is that almost half of the 2013 owners are experiencing heat problems. With thousands of owners, you can't take a survey with only a handful of responses and draw any legitimate conclusions. Based on dealer reports of the percentage of 2013 spyders showing any evidence of excessive heat while performing the recall work, the actual number of "problem spyders" appears to be very low, most likely in the single digit percentages.

The vast majority of spyder owners have expressed nothing but support and encouragement on this forum to those few riders who are experiencing excess heat. I'm thankful my 2013 hasn't shown any problems, and I hope the ones that do run hot are fixed asap so everyone can get on the road and enjoy their ride. But it does get so, so tiring reading the constant complaints about the 2013's, and the all too frequent advice from some that no one should even consider buying a 2013 because they are all worthless. It's simply not true. With a vocal minority throwing all of the 2013's into the category of worthless because a few have problems, it's no wonder the trade-in value for everyone is low.

Again, I'm sorry if you have excessive heat, but please try to keep things in perspective and avoid inflammatory claims that do no good for anyone.

I thought this forum was to discuss issues, and hopefully resolve them. I did not say that " almost half of the 2013 owners are experiencing heat problems." I said: ". . . almost half of 2013 Spyder riders are experienceing, according to the survey someone else conducted here . . . " There is a huge difference between those two statements. I refered to the survey results, not every Spyder ever produced.

[DrewNJ]

I'm confused by your statement above. In a motor vessel the water cooled exhaust removes the heat and sends it out the exhaust as 'hot water'. Point here is it 'removes the heat'. Even a poorly tuned marine engine will remove that heat as long as the water pump(s) are functional. In our Spyders the headers are the largest source of heat and unless that heat is removed particularly under the tuperware you may experience previous described heat issues.

Take the exhaust out of the equation. It's a moot point and in relation to the ski serves as proof that a properly tuned water cooled motor needs no ambient surface airflow to keep the motor running as cool as it was designed. A water cooled motor improperly tuned CAN overheat in any application. Especially closed loop cooling. Regardless of coolant flow.

I dont see how the heat generated by the Spyder exhaust can be the source of heat problems people are complaining about because that exhaust has always been on the Spyder since 08' and in its current design on the rt since 10'.

My initial impression is that the 2013' spyders are tuned VERY lean from the factory. Probably because of all the previous complaints about fuel mileage and brp's attempt to bring that up a bit.
People are having "hit and miss" success with airflow mods because, while they do very little at actually cooling the motor, they do make a noticeable difference in rider comfort and keeping some of the directly adjacent components from melting. Localized hot spots cause components to melt.

My car has all kinds of plastic all over the motor, including a plastic intake manifold and has no melting. It also has no vents or holes cut anywhere for airflow and an open exhaust mani. Nothing melts unless obviously in direct contact with the exhaust.




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[rojodawg]

I thought this forum was to discuss issues, and hopefully resolve them. I did not say that " almost half of the 2013 owners are experiencing heat problems." I said: ". . . almost half of 2013 Spyder riders are experienceing, according to the survey someone else conducted here . . . " There is a huge difference between those two statements. I refered to the survey results, not every Spyder ever produced.

That might be what you meant, but it's not what you said. You clearly stated that almost half of the 2013's were experiencing heat problems, and you referenced a spyderlovers survey as your source. That's a faulty conclusion from that survey, yet that is exactly what a newbie would think from reading from your post. It's factual to say that almost half of survey responses indicated excess heat problems, but then you should also state that it was a statistically meaningless survey and no broad conclusions should be drawn about what percentage of 2013's actually have documented heat issues.

Not trying to be picky, but as we are all witnessing in the news, we have to be accurate with our facts, but not our opinions. Just be sure to distinguish which is which.

[Dan McNally]

Done . . . I'll stop posting here because I refuse to argue with close-minded people who attack and ridicule rather than discuss.

[nhoj]

I dont see how the heat generated by the Spyder exhaust can be the source of heat problems people are complaining about because that exhaust has always been on the Spyder since 08' and in its current design on the rt since 10'.

First of all I totally agree with you and the tuning could be part of the issues. My wife's 2011 RT does not have any of the "under the Tupperware" heat issues. My ST so far does not but I only got my ST at the end of September and after 2000 Km (1200 miles) I have not experienced any either. To be fair we've only had one day above 70 degrees (F) since, now its cold and if ambient temperatures exasperate the problem I will have to wait until late next spring to see if I indeed do have issues.

To bring this back on topic, the OP presented that 'Air Scoops' might help the heat issues. I believe you can RAM all the cooler air in under the Tupperware you want but that air really has no where to go, no easy exit and until the heat (from whatever source) is removed the temperatures under the panel will remain high.

Yes the headers have been there since day 1 but there is something different on the 13's at least on the ST's. Its much more crowded in there. The air flow out from under the panels seems restricted compared to the RT. I find it much more difficult to work on the ST than I do on the '11 RT. I wanted to check the vacuum hosed on my ST having the ones on the RT previously crack. The forward hose on the ST is not even visible, rotated around to the right and two inches closer to the front than on the '11 RT. Again much more crowded. The brake Master Cylinder is about 1.5 inches closer to the rear header than on the RT. Again much more crowded. The ST is sleeker in profile yes but restricting air flow and therefore heat removal.

Until the heat is more efficiently removed no amount of cramming air in will help.

[3 Wheel Addict]

Done . . . I'll stop posting here because I refuse to argue with close-minded people who attack and ridicule rather than discuss.

Don't give up Hayfield!

[Bob Denman]

When divergent opinions can somehow converge... magic can happen!
Solutions need all of the input that we can scrape up; don't give up just yet!

[CyncySpyder]

I dont see how the heat generated by the Spyder exhaust can be the source of heat problems people are complaining about because that exhaust has always been on the Spyder since 08' and in its current design on the rt since 10'

FWIW: The exhaust is different on the RS & the RT & while the exhaust system may be the same on RTs between the 10s & 13s, the frame is significantly different.


I think alot of ppl are forgetting 2013 is a hiccup year for BRP. What I mean by that is, they CHANGED THE FRAME on all 2013 models to accomodate the new larger Triple Ace Engine and modified cooling systems that the New 2014 models are suppose to have, but they left the 13s with the same engine and cooling system configurations as previous years In doing so, its alot more crowded under the tupperware of the 2013 models than previous year models, leaving even less room for air circulation and for it to escape.

It would seem logical, this is one of the main reasons they now have moved 2 radiators to the front of the RT & incorporated the Low Speed Reverse activation feature as well.

This is just my personal opinion, and I could be way off base here. I'm not trying to start any arguments, just trying to help people see that their are differences and maybe help to come up with a solution.

That being said, I'm curious if any 2013 owner has tried removing the OEM AirBox & replacing it with the KewlMetal InTake like some of us previous model year owners have? I'm not even sure if KM sells them for the 13s or not, but I know it made a HUGE difference in our 11 RT. I mean all that plastic that makes up the OEM AirBox is HUGE, takes up alot of space and doesn't allow air to circulate at all under the tupperware and around the engine.



ALL of that was replaced by this:


And you can see just how wide open the engine area is after the switch. World of difference. Just saying, It may be a possible solution, or part of a solution if someone were to try. As always tho, someone has to be first to find out if it would work or not, if it would help or not

[Huddleston]

FWIW: The exhaust is different on the RS & the RT & while the exhaust system may be the same on RTs between the 10s & 13s, the frame is significantly different.


I think alot of ppl are forgetting 2013 is a hiccup year for BRP. What I mean by that is, they CHANGED THE FRAME on all 2013 models to accomodate the new larger Triple Ace Engine and modified cooling systems that the New 2014 models are suppose to have, but they left the 13s with the same engine and cooling system configurations as previous years In doing so, its alot more crowded under the tupperware of the 2013 models than previous year models, leaving even less room for air circulation and for it to escape.

It would seem logical, this is one of the main reasons they now have moved 2 radiators to the front of the RT & incorporated the Low Speed Reverse activation feature as well.

This is just my personal opinion, and I could be way off base here. I'm not trying to start any arguments, just trying to help people see that their are differences and maybe help to come up with a solution.

That being said, I'm curious if any 2013 owner has tried removing the OEM AirBox & replacing it with the KewlMetal InTake like some of us previous model year owners have? I'm not even sure if KM sells them for the 13s or not, but I know it made a HUGE difference in our 11 RT. I mean all that plastic that makes up the OEM AirBox is HUGE, takes up alot of space and doesn't allow air to circulate at all under the tupperware and around the engine....

Yes, I removed the airbox and resonator and replaced them with the Kewl Metal kit on my 2013 RTS SE5. You are correct that it really opens up the engine to better airflow (I also like the sound). I also removed the bottom skid panels to let air out underneath the Spyder. Finally, when I added the Vertika top vents, I am experiencing at least one bar lower engine temperatures than I have ever seen on my Spyder. I think part of the problem with the forum is that so many people think they are experts, or at least post their expert opinions without any credentials. I like to post what I have actually done and seen on my ride as you (CyncySpyder) do. I don't know whether this is a solution to the problem or not. All I know is that my mods appear to actually lower the engine temperature as reflected in my temp gauge.

[Sny]

This question is going to sound like an ass, but I promise it is not meant that way....
What I'm curious about is why hasn't someone (or a group of you) taken it upon yourselves to make their own machine run right instead of waiting for BRP to take an interest in correcting?
I understand the "blah blah blah, I paid X amount of dollars, it should be right" type of thought, but personally, life is to short. I would want it to be right, even if it cost me a bit to make it right.... Also, you all are kidding yourselves if you think BRP is going to do anything significant retroactive on the 13's they've already sold. They'll change it up for 14'+

Many times, we the consumer, are better at making things BETTER than they came from the factory. MANY improvements that came from the factory started as aftermarket mods people came up with on their own.
Come on all, put your heads together and get it worked out and quit complaining that BRP isn't going to do it for you..... JMHO.....

A few things I can think of:

Modifying the exhaust is illegal in many places.
Modifying the emissions system is illegal in many places.
Modifying the fueling system or engine control systems will invalidate many engine related claims against your warranty.
Modifying the cooling system of the bike will invalidate many engine and cooling system claims against your warranty.

There have been many attempts to solve this by backyard mechanics. These problems stem from deeper, more complex, engineering issues and while many of us are pretty darn smart, we didn't design this thing and don't have all the information necessary to re-engineer it correctly... nevermind that we shouldn't have to. A big part of what we paid for these machines was for someone else to engineer it no?

More airflow will certainly help in some situations. Fans, not really my thing (another part to fail) but it certainly might help. Ducting, heat shielding, protecting both parts and rider from heat... Those are fairly normal to add on to these machines.

Flashing the ECU, installing aftermarket performance fuel management systems, removing the cat... these are things that tuners do to gain power, not to make it run correctly and reliably. The 2013's run so lean they won't last as long as the former generations.

Take it to the dealer? Again? and Again? I managed to put 7000 miles on my 2013 between May and now with 13 weeks in the shop. BRP won't help the dealer... and the dealer can't do anything more than we can. They won't do things that compromise the warranty and they really can't come up with much more than a shade-tree mechanic would so solve this (wraps, fans, ducting, shields.)

None of which solve the root cause. The EGT's are too high! Only BRP can fix this without us spending tons of money on it (thousands) and compromising our warranty.

[Sny]

If this is all true, which I believe it is, then shouldn't we assume that the 2014 ST will still have the same issue since the only major change they made to deal with this is the side air scoops that will only work when traveling at higher speeds and not sitting still? Sounds like they didn't solve the problem with the ST unless I missing something.

Assuming we know all the changes to the 2014, yes.

But we still don't know all the changes made to the 2013's.

It's the same motor as the 2012 RT, same exhaust, same intake, same filter, same oil...

bigger radiator fan.

Obviously none of that gives us any clue to why the EGT's are higher.

EGT's are higher because the engine is tuned differently, specifically it runs with more air, less fuel. This is almost assuredly because of a different fuel map between 2012's and 2013's.

The 2014 ST's will very likely have a different fuel map, even though it is again the same engine, exhaust, intake, etc as a 2013 ST.

The ducting they added will certainly do something and many ST owners will be ordering them and having them painted to match at their own expense.

But if the heat problems are gone in 2014 ST's, it's more likely because of the hidden changes that we will never know about or be able to emulate.

[Sny]

So, is it just a hot rider situation OR is it truly a motor running hot?

Very much a matter of high EGT's. (Exhaust gas temps) Hot riders is just a symptom not a problem.

EGT's go high when them motor is pushed hard and/or lean. In our case it's happening when cruising on the interstate at 75mph+ in mild weather (70F) and is very noticeable and progresses rapidly at higher ambient temps (90F+)

This isn't about heat in traffic or stopped at a light. It's about excessive EGT's when cruising at higher rpm which then leads to all the symptoms people have been complaining about.

When driven short distances or at lower speeds (under 65mph) they behave a lot like any other Spyder of former model years with their own quirks added in.

But go on a long trip on the interstate and many of these ST's (and 2013 RT's) are experiencing extreme EGT's which lead to the more serious symptoms such as melting parts, burns for the rider, white plugs, reduced power and fuel efficiency and so on.

There are many 2013 owners who haven't experienced anything unusual. In many cases it's because their riding patterns don't fit the problem profile. In some cases it's simply that they haven't experienced it yet, or haven't noticed the melted parts yet. I've even seen some dealers do the recall and not notice melted evap cannisters (which will ultimately lead to a fire.)

I believe BRP has to come up with something... and I believe they're trying to figure out what that something is...

And I know how long it takes BRP to give us a solution (years).

[DrewNJ]

A few things I can think of:

1-Modifying the exhaust is illegal in many places.
Modifying the emissions system is illegal in many places.
Modifying the fueling system or engine control systems will invalidate many engine related claims against your warranty.
Modifying the cooling system of the bike will invalidate many engine and cooling system claims against your warranty.

2-There have been many attempts to solve this by backyard mechanics. These problems stem from deeper, more complex, engineering issues and while many of us are pretty darn smart, we didn't design this thing and don't have all the information necessary to re-engineer it correctly... nevermind that we shouldn't have to. A big part of what we paid for these machines was for someone else to engineer it no?

3-Flashing the ECU, installing aftermarket performance fuel management systems, removing the cat... these are things that tuners do to gain power, not to make it run correctly and reliably. The 2013's run so lean they won't last as long as the former generations.

4-None of which solve the root cause. The EGT's are too high! Only BRP can fix this without us spending tons of money on it (thousands) and compromising our warranty.

1)Going over the speed limit is also illegal as is cutting the tags off your mattress. So if you live in fear of going to prison because you think that someone actually cares if you bypass your purge valve or add a fuel controller or mod your spyder in any way, then you should ignore this thread and let BRP do everything for you....

2)I totally disagree about this group not being smart enough to re-engineer a product to work better for our specific need. That's what the aftermarket companies have been doing to all motorcycles, cars, trucks jetskis etc etc for years! It's the basis for a lot of the custom work and mods that we see today. Many of those custom "backyard" mods actually make it into factory production many years later.

3)engine tuning and fueling mods are NOT only done for power increases. Keep in mind that BRP as a business is required to work around federal emissions guidelines. Something your "backyard" mechanic cares little about. They have a very specific set of standards to meet for their machines to be approved for sale. Most times what the EPA thinks is correct and is part of their requirements, does not mean it's the "correct" or "best" way to do things.
I'm quite certain many of these machines are very lean. Running a motor lean is ONLY done for one reason...emissions. The purge valve, canister and all the other JUNK that is attached to the motor is only there for one reason....emissions. There are no improvements in reliability or proper running from these components....PERIOD. Performance gains by proper tuning is a secondary, and very appreciative result.

4)Have you checked afr on a 13' or seen a dyno sheet on a 13' to prove this? I'd love to see some real tuning feedback on a 13'.
So far, it's a lot of people complaining and coming up with ideas on how to run nascar type scoops, boat fans, aluminum foil tape, and all kinds of other bandaids, but nobody really doing any real testing.
I bet you'd have the same heat issues even if you stripped all the plastic off.....

Should you have to do your own work and spend your own money to make things right? NOPE. Is life to short to be aggravated by waiting for someone else to do it for you when we, as a group, have more than enough collective knowledge to make it right on our own, ABSOLUTELY!
Come on ALL! Someone check afr on a 13' and prove me wrong! Show me the afr numbers are where they should be and that it is a design problem and not a motor tuning problem....Then we can go to step 2 and get this problem taken care of for all 13' owners.

[DrewNJ]

Very much a matter of high EGT's. (Exhaust gas temps) Hot riders is just a symptom not a problem.

EGT's go high when them motor is pushed hard and/or lean. In our case it's happening when cruising on the interstate at 75mph+ in mild weather (70F) and is very noticeable and progresses rapidly at higher ambient temps (90F+)

This isn't about heat in traffic or stopped at a light. It's about excessive EGT's when cruising at higher rpm which then leads to all the symptoms people have been complaining about.

When driven short distances or at lower speeds (under 65mph) they behave a lot like any other Spyder of former model years with their own quirks added in.

But go on a long trip on the interstate and many of these ST's (and 2013 RT's) are experiencing extreme EGT's which lead to the more serious symptoms such as melting parts, burns for the rider, white plugs, reduced power and fuel efficiency and so on.

There are many 2013 owners who haven't experienced anything unusual. In many cases it's because their riding patterns don't fit the problem profile. In some cases it's simply that they haven't experienced it yet, or haven't noticed the melted parts yet. I've even seen some dealers do the recall and not notice melted evap cannisters (which will ultimately lead to a fire.)

I believe BRP has to come up with something... and I believe they're trying to figure out what that something is...

And I know how long it takes BRP to give us a solution (years).

This is very interesting for sure! This REALLY makes me think they have it leaned out in that 5k-5.5k cruise area for fuel economy. Figure people have been complaining about fuel economy on these things for years....especially the RT guys that do a lot of long range cruising.

[Magdave]

The most "fatuous" statement in this thread is that almost half of the 2013 owners are experiencing heat problems. With thousands of owners, you can't take a survey with only a handful of responses and draw any legitimate conclusions. Based on dealer reports of the percentage of 2013 spyders showing any evidence of excessive heat while performing the recall work, the actual number of "problem spyders" appears to be very low, most likely in the single digit percentages.

The vast majority of spyder owners have expressed nothing but support and encouragement on this forum to those few riders who are experiencing excess heat. I'm thankful my 2013 hasn't shown any problems, and I hope the ones that do run hot are fixed asap so everyone can get on the road and enjoy their ride. But it does get so, so tiring reading the constant complaints about the 2013's, and the all too frequent advice from some that no one should even consider buying a 2013 because they are all worthless. It's simply not true. With a vocal minority throwing all of the 2013's into the category of worthless because a few have problems, it's no wonder the trade-in value for everyone is low.

Again, I'm sorry if you have excessive heat, but please try to keep things in perspective and avoid inflammatory claims that do no good for anyone.

And where is your research that proves that wrong and do you have a master mechanic certification? A poll is used to predict who will be elected and seem to work pretty well. Is it exact science? No but it is some proof that something is wrong. Do you know what was moved and changed under the Tupperware ? I do and it has caused airflow issues. Most of the movement was due to the new sway bar taking up room that was open before. You need to do some "research" before slamming those of us who actually know something about what is going on with the 2013. Your post was fatuous unless you post the "dealer reports" you mentioned. Mine has seen the damage.

[rojodawg]

And where is your research that proves that wrong and do you have a master mechanic certification? A poll is used to predict who will be elected and seem to work pretty well. Is it exact science? No but it is some proof that something is wrong. Do you know what was moved and changed under the Tupperware ? I do and it has caused airflow issues. Most of the movement was due to the new sway bar taking up room that was open before. You need to do some "research" before slamming those of us who actually know something about what is going on with the 2013. Your post was fatuous unless you post the "dealer reports" you mentioned. Mine has seen the damage.

I really feel sorry for you Magdave. I'm not being a smart***, I am really concerned with the tone of your recent posts. You are full of anger and resentment, especially toward anyone who doesn't totally agree with you. Am I a master mechanic? No, I am a registered professional petroleum engineer. Is it common sense to know that the spyderlovers survey with almost half of the respondants indicating heat problems IS NOT a basis for extrapolating that result to assume that almost half of ALL 2013's have heat problems? Yes. My two kids just voted that they like fried chicken. Does that mean that ALL children like fried chicken? Well, they might, but you can't assume that by conducting a poll that does not conform to statistically relevant standards. The information from the spyderlovers poll is useful and interesting, and confirms that a number of folks do have heat problems, but that's about it. Do I have a compilation of dealer reports from the recall? No, but several of us posted comments from our dealers indicating that they saw only a small percentage of spyders with heat problems. Do I know anything about 2013's? Well, certainly not as much as a lot of folks on this forum, but I do own one.

Check my posts. I have voiced support over and over again for those with heat problems, and I have asked all posters to be respectful and accurate in their posts. Just like it angers you to feel that others don't empathize with your heat problems, it can anger those without heat problems to have their 2013's continuously trashed on this forum. I am really sorry that you have heat problems, but that doesn't mean that every 2013 has problems, or that my ride is a piece of junk. When gathering with other spyder owners, tell them you own a 2013 and hear "oh I'm so glad I don't have one! They all run hot and you will never be able to sell it". That's because all they hear about on 2013's is heat problems, and whenever someone on this forum mentions that only a small percentage of 2013's appear to have problems, here come guys like you railing against all of mankind because everyone doesn't have the exact problems you have in life.

The vast, vast majority of folks on this forum are genuinely nice, respectful and knowledgeable. The heat problem on some 2013's is real and should be addressed by BRP. I understand the frustrations and believe everyone with problems has the right to voice concerns on this forum, but I fear the anger and attacks have gotten out of control by some. I truly hope all of the problem spyders get fixed. I have made good friends here and have learned more about motorcycles and spyders than I ever thought possible. I love my 2013 ST and ride as often as possible. But I'm tired of being attacked because I try to keep posts factual. You might really believe that misery loves company, but I don't want others to have problems whether I do or not. So go ahead and fire away with how I shouldn't really have an opinion, I don't have any knowledge, I have no empathy for others, etc, etc. I think I am done posting for a while. It just ain't worth it anymore. Have a blessed day.

[Bob Denman]

Has anyone tried a product called Zircotec? I think it is produced in England but there are distributors here in the states. It is used in F1 cars and airplanes as well. This isn't something you can go pick up a Lowe's.

http://www.zircotec.com/page/heatshield_products/97

This stuff looks as if it might hold some promise... Thanks!