Potential to Make Some Money - Ram Air Scoops

[Dan McNally]

I suspect someone could make a ton of cash from 2013 RT and RS owners if they marketed an affordable and easily installed air scoop that would fit the grills under the rearview mirrors! Vertika makes one, but it is way too expensive.

[MrLooney]

Have you priced flat plastic lately?
Then tried to shape it?
Most of these plastic MODS you see on our Roadsters are either mold injected or heat vacuum over a formed mold. These forms take time and are often tweaked to get them just right. Then you have to look at the failure rate of the product as it comes out of the mold. Last of all is the quantity of finished products you have to have to make it worth while to produce for the projected sales.

[Jeriatric]

And the beat goes on. Or should that be bandaids?

One sure fire way to deminish years of heat complaints is to produce something worse. Done!

[CyncySpyder]

I suspect someone could make a ton of cash from 2013 RT and RS owners if they marketed an affordable and easily installed air scoop that would fit the grills under the rearview mirrors! Vertika makes one, but it is way too expensive.

No doubt, what you say has merrit, but think about it......... what would that really solve?

You'd be forcing ambient air into the engine compartment only when your moving at higher speeds.
I don't think most of us complain all that much about that issue in particular. (IMHO) The real problem seems to be when we're going slow or in stop & go traffic, & the heat builds up under the tupperware and when the radiator kicks on and causes the right foot to get torched The solution of the air scoop under the mirrors wouldn't really help much in these cases....... would it?
Heat rises, and those vents were placed there in an effort to give the heat another route of escape, instead of being trapped under the tupperware. Many of the posts I've read about the Vertika air-scoops that owners have them installed are not all that glowing of an endorsement and the results seem marginal at best, again at least from what I've read. I've yet to see anyone post that it relieved their problems with the heat.

Have you priced flat plastic lately?
Then tried to shape it?
Most of these plastic MODS you see on our Roadsters are either mold injected or heat vacuum over a formed mold. These forms take time and are often tweaked to get them just right. Then you have to look at the failure rate of the product as it comes out of the mold. Last of all is the quantity of finished products you have to have to make it worth while to produce for the projected sales.

Don't forget about FiberGlass & or Carbon Fiber (not that Carbon-fiber is cheap by any means) I do believe the parts that Vertika builds are actually made out of FiberGlass.

[Barlock]

No doubt, what you say has merrit, but think about it......... what would that really solve?

Heat rises, and those vents were placed there in an effort to give the heat another route of escape, instead of being trapped under the tupperware. Many of the posts I've read about the Vertika air-scoops that owners have them installed are not all that glowing of an endorsement and the results seem marginal at best, again at least from what I've read. I've yet to see anyone post that it relieved their problems with the heat.

with you Dave. Those top vents meant to let the hot air out by creating the negative pressure behind those clear plastic deflectors. There was a reason why BRP had them designed that way and I would not recommend changing it.

[CyncySpyder]

with you Dave. Those top vents meant to let the hot air out by creating the negative pressure behind those clear plastic deflectors. There was a reason why BRP had them designed that way and I would not recommend changing it.

Oh but we did change it, tho exactly the opposite of the OP and added a small fan to the inside of the grill to help the hot air to escape, but we also added an 'on-demand' inline blower and removed the entire OEM Air-Box & resonator as well, so its a bit of an exteme make over but it works wonders and we also installed a digital temp gauge to show exactly what our 'under tupperware' temps are running and as soon as it starts heating up, flip the switch, and within 1 minute, its usually back to whatever the ambient temp is outside Problem solved, allthough as stated, not really an easy solution but it works for us

[flamingobabe]

Better air flow might help to get rid of hot air....but a better solution is for BRP to come up with a flash for the ECM.....remove or re-position the CAT......get rid of the CANISTER....Carlo @ BRP....I'm waiting for your call...thanks Carlo...really appreciate the call...ball is rolling

[Jeriatric]

[QUOTEBarlock;713191] with you Dave. Those top vents meant to let the hot air out by creating the negative pressure behind those clear plastic deflectors. There was a reason why BRP had them designed that way and I would not recommend changing it.[/QUOTE]

The negative pressure concept goes out the window the moment positionable air deflectors are installed.

Truth Is, none of us will know 'for sure' what will or will not work until there's extensive testing done. Unless someone gets lucky.

Most are merely searching for a cure to something BRP obviously wants no part of, and, that's unfortunate for Lots of folks.

Jm2c

[cuznjohn]

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...-HEAT-PROBLEMS

[reverendg]

[QUOTEBarlock;713191] with you Dave. Those top vents meant to let the hot air out by creating the negative pressure behind those clear plastic deflectors. There was a reason why BRP had them designed that way and I would not recommend changing it.

The negative pressure concept goes out the window the moment positionable air deflectors are installed.

Truth Is, none of us will know 'for sure' what will or will not work until there's extensive testing done. Unless someone gets lucky.

Most are merely searching for a cure to something BRP obviously wants no part of, and, that's unfortunate for Lots of folks.

Jm2c[/QUOTE]

I thought reports claimed that the movable vents still resulted in sucking out heat.

[5PYD3R]

I worked with a buddy last year to remake the lobster "Y" piece on the gs/rs to put air inlets on the front. I actually have a prototype and ran it for a while on my GS but it seemed that it just trapped air in the top and the piece got really hot.

[anthony422]

[QUOTE=CyncySpyder;713189]No doubt, what you say has merrit, but think about it......... what would that really solve?

You'd be forcing ambient air into the engine compartment only when your moving at higher speeds.
I don't think most of us complain all that much about that issue in particular. (IMHO) The real problem seems to be when we're going slow or in stop & go traffic, & the heat builds up under the tupperware and when the radiator kicks on and causes the right foot to get torched The solution of the air scoop under the mirrors wouldn't really help much in these cases....... would it?
Heat rises, and those vents were placed there in an effort to give the heat another route of escape, instead of being trapped under the tupperware. Many of the posts I've read about the Vertika air-scoops that owners have them installed are not all that glowing of an endorsement and the results seem marginal at best, again at least from what I've read. I've yet to see anyone post that it relieved their problems with the heat.



Don't forget about FiberGlass & or Carbon Fiber (not that Carbon-fiber is cheap by any means) I do believe the parts that Vertika builds are actually made out of FiberGlass.

Exactly how I feel !!!!

[SpyderRx]

No doubt, what you say has merrit, but think about it......... what would that really solve?

You'd be forcing ambient air into the engine compartment only when your moving at higher speeds.
I don't think most of us complain all that much about that issue in particular. (IMHO) The real problem seems to be when we're going slow or in stop & go traffic, & the heat builds up under the tupperware and when the radiator kicks on and causes the right foot to get torched The solution of the air scoop under the mirrors wouldn't really help much in these cases....... would it?
Heat rises, and those vents were placed there in an effort to give the heat another route of escape, instead of being trapped under the tupperware. Many of the posts I've read about the Vertika air-scoops that owners have them installed are not all that glowing of an endorsement and the results seem marginal at best, again at least from what I've read. I've yet to see anyone post that it relieved their problems with the heat.



Don't forget about FiberGlass & or Carbon Fiber (not that Carbon-fiber is cheap by any means) I do believe the parts that Vertika builds are actually made out of FiberGlass.

If this is all true, which I believe it is, then shouldn't we assume that the 2014 ST will still have the same issue since the only major change they made to deal with this is the side air scoops that will only work when traveling at higher speeds and not sitting still? Sounds like they didn't solve the problem with the ST unless I missing something.

[Yfactor]

If this is all true, which I believe it is, then shouldn't we assume that the 2014 ST will still have the same issue since the only major change they made to deal with this is the side air scoops that will only work when traveling at higher speeds and not sitting still? Sounds like they didn't solve the problem with the ST unless I missing something.

When sitting still they also reverse the fan to pull the heated air forward away from the rider.

[SpyderRx]

When sitting still they also reverse the fan to pull the heated air forward away from the rider.

I thought this was only on the new RT. Is it that way on the ST also? Would be great if it is.

[CyncySpyder]

If this is all true, which I believe it is, then shouldn't we ass ume that the 2014 ST will still have the same issue since the only major change they made to deal with this is the side air scoops that will only work when traveling at higher speeds and not sitting still? Sounds like they didn't solve the problem with the ST unless I missing something.

You know what they say about assuming....... right Your free to assume anything you'd like

We don't have an ST, never been on one (tho Teddy has) and have no desire to do so, and I try not to write about things I do not know about Maybe someone else that has an ST or experience/knowledge in the subject might chime in to enlighten us all

[Sny]

If this is all true, which I believe it is, then shouldn't we assume that the 2014 ST will still have the same issue since the only major change they made to deal with this is the side air scoops that will only work when traveling at higher speeds and not sitting still? Sounds like they didn't solve the problem with the ST unless I missing something.

Assuming we know all the changes to the 2014, yes.

But we still don't know all the changes made to the 2013's.

It's the same motor as the 2012 RT, same exhaust, same intake, same filter, same oil...

bigger radiator fan.

Obviously none of that gives us any clue to why the EGT's are higher.

EGT's are higher because the engine is tuned differently, specifically it runs with more air, less fuel. This is almost assuredly because of a different fuel map between 2012's and 2013's.

The 2014 ST's will very likely have a different fuel map, even though it is again the same engine, exhaust, intake, etc as a 2013 ST.

The ducting they added will certainly do something and many ST owners will be ordering them and having them painted to match at their own expense.

But if the heat problems are gone in 2014 ST's, it's more likely because of the hidden changes that we will never know about or be able to emulate.

[DrewNJ]

So, is it just a hot rider situation OR is it truly a motor running hot?


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[Sny]

So, is it just a hot rider situation OR is it truly a motor running hot?

Very much a matter of high EGT's. (Exhaust gas temps) Hot riders is just a symptom not a problem.

EGT's go high when them motor is pushed hard and/or lean. In our case it's happening when cruising on the interstate at 75mph+ in mild weather (70F) and is very noticeable and progresses rapidly at higher ambient temps (90F+)

This isn't about heat in traffic or stopped at a light. It's about excessive EGT's when cruising at higher rpm which then leads to all the symptoms people have been complaining about.

When driven short distances or at lower speeds (under 65mph) they behave a lot like any other Spyder of former model years with their own quirks added in.

But go on a long trip on the interstate and many of these ST's (and 2013 RT's) are experiencing extreme EGT's which lead to the more serious symptoms such as melting parts, burns for the rider, white plugs, reduced power and fuel efficiency and so on.

There are many 2013 owners who haven't experienced anything unusual. In many cases it's because their riding patterns don't fit the problem profile. In some cases it's simply that they haven't experienced it yet, or haven't noticed the melted parts yet. I've even seen some dealers do the recall and not notice melted evap cannisters (which will ultimately lead to a fire.)

I believe BRP has to come up with something... and I believe they're trying to figure out what that something is...

And I know how long it takes BRP to give us a solution (years).

[DrewNJ]

Very much a matter of high EGT's. (Exhaust gas temps) Hot riders is just a symptom not a problem.

EGT's go high when them motor is pushed hard and/or lean. In our case it's happening when cruising on the interstate at 75mph+ in mild weather (70F) and is very noticeable and progresses rapidly at higher ambient temps (90F+)

This isn't about heat in traffic or stopped at a light. It's about excessive EGT's when cruising at higher rpm which then leads to all the symptoms people have been complaining about.

When driven short distances or at lower speeds (under 65mph) they behave a lot like any other Spyder of former model years with their own quirks added in.

But go on a long trip on the interstate and many of these ST's (and 2013 RT's) are experiencing extreme EGT's which lead to the more serious symptoms such as melting parts, burns for the rider, white plugs, reduced power and fuel efficiency and so on.

There are many 2013 owners who haven't experienced anything unusual. In many cases it's because their riding patterns don't fit the problem profile. In some cases it's simply that they haven't experienced it yet, or haven't noticed the melted parts yet. I've even seen some dealers do the recall and not notice melted evap cannisters (which will ultimately lead to a fire.)

I believe BRP has to come up with something... and I believe they're trying to figure out what that something is...

And I know how long it takes BRP to give us a solution (years).

This is very interesting for sure! This REALLY makes me think they have it leaned out in that 5k-5.5k cruise area for fuel economy. Figure people have been complaining about fuel economy on these things for years....especially the RT guys that do a lot of long range cruising.

[DrewNJ]

A solution to what kind of heat problem? Is it just a rider discomfort heat OR is the motor indeed running hot?
There is a big difference. I don't have a 13' and while my 12' gets hot riding in the summer, I am certain it's running the way it should. That I'm hot because I'm sitting on an internal combustion engine that runs about 200 degrees or so and doing this in 100 degree ambient temps.


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[Dan McNally]

A solution to what kind of heat problem? Is it just a rider discomfort heat OR is the motor indeed running hot?
There is a big difference. I don't have a 13' and while my 12' gets hot riding in the summer, I am certain it's running the way it should. That I'm hot because I'm sitting on an internal combustion engine that runs about 200 degrees or so and doing this in 100 degree ambient temps.


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It isn't just discomfort. My master cylinder, brake cable, and charcoal canister all melted. They were replaced and insulated. However, the heat is still there. I can't keep my cell phone in the glove box because it gets too hot . . . one died. What is that intense heat doing to my wiring harness or to the rubber hoses? What kind of gas mileage would I get if my gas didn't boil after a long ride? Obviously better than I get, now. If it was something as simple as discomfort, I'd just velcro neoprene inulated pads to my seat where my legs get burned . . . my concern is the hidden damage going on inside. There needs to be a way to get more air moving through the inside to vent that heat that seems to stay there. There probably isn't a single solution . . . more airflow, wrapped pipes, insulated gas tank, remapping so the engine runs a bit richer . . .

[DrewNJ]

There probably isn't a single solution . . . more airflow, wrapped pipes, insulated gas tank, remapping so the engine runs a bit richer . . .

Agreed! and from what I've been reading you all have wrapped and insulated to what most would consider an extreme! With very little, and sometimes even sketchy results...

Now, Get tuning and put this problem to bed!

[DrewNJ]

It isn't just discomfort.. . . my concern is the hidden damage going on inside.

Also, if this is your only concern then take all those extra bolt on vents, pipe wraps, and all the BRP self stick foil and chuck it right in the trash! None of that is going to help with potential internal motor damage.

Again, not at all trying to be a dick. Just honestly trying to help. I really want all those that are having issues to get them resolved correctly.




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[DrewNJ]

Ok, so if it's a motor running hot concern has anyone actually checked afr to see what is going on? Remember, it's liquid cooled so adding air under the plastic isn't going to do much, if anything, to fix the problem. Air under the plastic will help with rider comfort.
I posted a thread a bit ago about afr on my own machine and it got very little attention. That surprised me with all the heat talk around here. On our pretty heavily modded skis we rely quite a bit on afr and tune accordingly.
Someone NEEDS to do some afr checking on a 13'. If its a fuel map issue and the machine is indeed running hot from being lean its a fairly easy fix.


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