Laser Alignment

[flybuddy]

If you're visiting Biketoberfest, you might want to consider riding down to Edgewater for a Laser Alignment. Had mine done yesterday and my toe was corrected from 2.1 to .05.
Felt pretty nice afterwards going 65 with no hands on the bars.
After a lot of prior tweaks, Elkas, shock extenders, etc. i felt my bike was pretty good BUT this was the icing on the cake. Best value in improving your ride.

[SNOOPY]

I'll be next door to you in Sanibel next month, but just can't justify towing the Spyder all the way there for an alignment...but am thinking about it. Lol

[FLAspydergirl]

If you're visiting Biketoberfest, you might want to consider riding down to Edgewater for a Laser Alignment. Had mine done yesterday and my toe was corrected from 2.1 to .05.
Felt pretty nice afterwards going 65 with no hands on the bars.
After a lot of prior tweaks, Elkas, shock extenders, etc. i felt my bike was pretty good BUT this was the icing on the cake. Best value in improving your ride.

When Norm came to us about starting this LLC he said it was all about comfort..because he is a road warrior he knew how un-comfortable certain things were

After hearing some of the storys yesterday we are so proud to bring this technology to Spyder riders...it is ALL about riding in comfort

[FLAspydergirl]

I'll be next door to you in Sanibel next month, but just can't justify towing the Spyder all the way there for an alignment...but am thinking about it. Lol

Just hold tight Snoopy somebody near you will buy in....after all ....we all want the same thing: a perfect handling Spyder and excellent tire wear…

[ElZorroRides]

The wife and I have appointments set for Saturday with them Looking forward to it...

[SNOOPY]

Just hold tight Snoopy somebody near you will buy in....after all ....we all want the same thing: a perfect handling Spyder and excellent tire wear…

[docdoru]

I'll be there tomorrow @ 1330 with the 2008 Silver Dream; just to verify that speed self correct the alignment...

[fastfraser]

I hate these post . What the hay is going on ? Is every spyder ever manufactured out of alignment ? There is no way that a 30,000 + Spyder should leave the plant out of alignment .In 45 years of driving cars I have never had an alignment !!

[MouthPiece]

I hate these post . What the hay is going on ? Is every spyder ever manufactured out of alignment ? There is no way that a 30,000 + Spyder should leave the plant out of alignment .In 45 years of driving cars I have never had an alignment !!

WELL YOU SURE NEED TO HAVE ONE OF THESE DONE.

[SpyderDen]

I hate these post . What the hay is going on ? Is every spyder ever manufactured out of alignment ? There is no way that a 30,000 + Spyder should leave the plant out of alignment .In 45 years of driving cars I have never had an alignment !!

But I have a 10:00am appointment in Edgewater tomorrow. I'm hoping mine is off so I can justify the job.

[Dizneyman]

I have a 2011 RT-s, stopped there today and mine was tracking perfect according to their tests. They said there was no toe, so made some small adjustment. I honestly do not feel any difference after riding over 200 miles today. I assume this is because because my tracking of my fronts was perfect to the rear. I guess the money spent for knowing it was right on is OK, but I kinda felt everything was in line before I got there. Almost 15k on fronts and they look brand new.. and she tracked straight as an arrow.

Oh well... live and learn....

[Jeriatric]

[QUITE=fastfraser;708578]I hate these post . What the hay is going on ? Is every spyder manufactured out of alignment ? There is no way that a 30,000 + Spyder should leave the plant out of alignment .In 45 years of driving cars I have never had an alignment !![/QUOTE]

It sucks, but it is what it is. BRP has their way of doing alignments (value engineering) and now there's a better more precise way. Which one you prefer is your choice. The right choice will likely put a smile on you face....and, extend the life of your tires.

[BikerDoc]

Central Florida Powersports in Kissimmee, Fl also has the laser alignment system from ROLO, if you are in Florida but not headed
to biketoberfest.

[flybuddy]

I hate these post . What the hay is going on ? Is every spyder ever manufactured out of alignment ? There is no way that a 30,000 + Spyder should leave the plant out of alignment .In 45 years of driving cars I have never had an alignment !!

Anyone who has flown a tail wheel aircraft will attest to how inherently unstable it is to have the CG behind the main wheels. (There are those who have groundlooped and those that will ) Positive stability would be when the rear wheel wants to correct back to center. That's simply not the case with a reverse trike as the rear will want to continue it's deviation and the rider has to continually keep it in line (negative stability) If the track or alignment is off the issue is compounded. The factory alignment is simply not precise enough. Basically, the laser alignment keeps everything more centered alleviating the constant corrections we've gotten used to.
Cars can be off quite a bit on alignment and even the more extreme ones are still fairly stable and simply take a hit on tire wear.

[flybuddy]

I'll be next door to you in Sanibel next month, but just can't justify towing the Spyder all the way there for an alignment...but am thinking about it. Lol

It's a nice ride over and the weather is usually good this time of year. Also, if you're there for 2nd week, check out bike night in downtown Fort Myers (2nd Saturday)..good crowd and generally quite a few Spyders.

[NancysToy]

Anyone who has flown a tail wheel aircraft will attest to how inherently unstable it is to have the CG behind the main wheels. (There are those who have groundlooped and those that will ) Positive stability would be when the rear wheel wants to correct back to center. That's simply not the case with a reverse trike as the rear will want to continue it's deviation and the rider has to continually keep it in line (negative stability) If the track or alignment is off the issue is compounded. The factory alignment is simply not precise enough. Basically, the laser alignment keeps everything more centered alleviating the constant corrections we've gotten used to.
Cars can be off quite a bit on alignment and even the more extreme ones are still fairly stable and simply take a hit on tire wear.

Good explanation. (I love the analogy, too, having spent some time in tail-draggers myself.) I will add one more thing. The Spyder's suspension geometry is such that the toe-in changes as it is loaded and unloaded. That means that no matter how precise the factory sets the alignment, it will be different for each rider under actual road conditions. The factory can't know what weight rider will own which machine or where an owner will set his/her suspension preload (pre-2013), so they shoot for an average number at best. The BRP procedure does not allow the suspension to be loaded during alignment, so it can't compensate without extensive trial and error adjustments. The Outlaw laser procedure can dial things in more precisely, plus they have observed and calculated the necessary compensation adjustments. Is laser alignment necessary...not for some riders, but if you are having problems, ride mostly two-up, have changed suspension settings or components, or have damaged the suspension, an aftrermarket alignment is probably adviseable. JMHO

[gypsy_100]

The Outlaw laser procedure can dial things in more precisely, plus they have observed and calculated the necessary compensation adjustments.

Let's say you get the laser alignment "perfect" for the rider's weight. As long as you have the auto air bag, the rear ride height will stay constant when a passenger climbs on. Since I think most of the the passenger's weight will be on the rear of the bike and that will adjust automatically, it seems the front end alignment should still be pretty close to "perfect". Is this correct thinking or should the alignment be set for halfway between the one-up and two-up weights? That way the alignment would be close to perfect (but not quite "perfect") for either one-up or two-up? Splitting hairs, I admit, but wondering at least from a theoretical viewpoint which is correct.

Similarly, if a weight is chosen that is too high, for example, will that result in too much toe-in or too little toe-in? If too much, I assume the tire wear would suffer but stability would be good. If too little, better tire wear but the bike might suffer from dartiness or instability. Correct?

[BajaRon]

Central Florida Powersports in Kissimmee, Fl also has the laser alignment system from ROLO, if you are in Florida but not headed
to biketoberfest.

Central Florida Powersports also carries the BajaRon Sway Bar Kits. So you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone!

[BajaRon]

Anyone who has flown a tail wheel aircraft will attest to how inherently unstable it is to have the CG behind the main wheels. (There are those who have groundlooped and those that will ) Positive stability would be when the rear wheel wants to correct back to center. That's simply not the case with a reverse trike as the rear will want to continue it's deviation and the rider has to continually keep it in line (negative stability) If the track or alignment is off the issue is compounded. The factory alignment is simply not precise enough. Basically, the laser alignment keeps everything more centered alleviating the constant corrections we've gotten used to.
Cars can be off quite a bit on alignment and even the more extreme ones are still fairly stable and simply take a hit on tire wear.

The problem with BRP's alignment approach is that they very precisely set alignment using the frame as reference. This results in a wide variation in results and rarely gives correct alignment.

Now if the frame and wheels were perfectly aligned then the frame would be a suitable reference. The problem is, they are not. Nor should they be expected too.

You've got 2 front wheels sitting at the end of a complex suspension system with many components. Each component being 'Within Tolerance' which means 'Acceptable Variation'.

Each small variation in each component is multiplied as you go out to the terminus which is the front wheel. Multiply this times 2 (2 front wheels) and you can see where using the frame could be problematic. These values are small in normal terms and the end result must also be 'Within Tolerance'. But our Spyder requires a very accurate alignment. Anything less will cause issues.

Then you have the rear wheel mounted at the end of a very long swing arm, which again, has several components, each within tolerance. A bit off at the swing arm bolt and you're quite a ways off at the axle. This may be slight in terms of measurement but significant in terms of alignment.

But in reality, none of this is a big deal and exists in every vehicle.

Do you see car alignments done using the frame as reference? NO! And why not? Because the frame can't be trusted as an accurate 'Zeroing' factor. How is a car alignment done? By using the wheels as reference and in relationship to each other. The idea being to get all wheels going the same direction or 'Tracking' straight.

Laser alignment disregards the frame altogether. Instead, it uses the rear wheel as reference. First, you need to be sure the rear wheel is tracking straight. Once that is confirmed then you can align the front wheels to track straight relative to the rear wheel. Now you have harmony between the drive wheel and the front wheels, nullifying any anomalies in frame/suspension components. Harmony is GOOD!

So now you have straight, stable, efficient tracking of all 3 wheels. Mis-Alignment causes uneven front tire wear which is due, in part, to having to fight the rear drive wheel wasting power, fuel and rubber, not to mention your nerves, shoulders, arms and wrists as you fight to keep your Spyder headed straight down the road.

I don't mean to make this sound like some epic struggle. It is, many times, very subtle, even imperceptible. But the results can be sore hands/wrists/shoulders at the end of a long ride.

[NancysToy]

Let's say you get the laser alignment "perfect" for the rider's weight. As long as you have the auto air bag, the rear ride height will stay constant when a passenger climbs on. Since I think most of the the passenger's weight will be on the rear of the bike and that will adjust automatically, it seems the front end alignment should still be pretty close to "perfect". Is this correct thinking or should the alignment be set for halfway between the one-up and two-up weights? That way the alignment would be close to perfect (but not quite "perfect") for either one-up or two-up? Splitting hairs, I admit, but wondering at least from a theoretical viewpoint which is correct.

Similarly, if a weight is chosen that is too high, for example, will that result in too much toe-in or too little toe-in? If too much, I assume the tire wear would suffer but stability would be good. If too little, better tire wear but the bike might suffer from dartiness or instability. Correct?

The passenger has less effect than you may imagine, although there is some effect. On the RT with auto ACS, the ride-height adjustment should compensate. I have no real evidence one way or the other. Without the auto ACS, the passenger actually tends to raise the front in relation to the rear, so it should slightly increase toe-in...which is desirable. I'd set the alignment for the rider's weight, and to the maximum of the toe-in spec, unless you exclusively ride two-up. That's just a guess, what do the others say?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I hate these post . What the hay is going on ? Is every spyder ever manufactured out of alignment ? There is no way that a 30,000 + Spyder should leave the plant out of alignment .In 45 years of driving cars I have never had an alignment !!

BRP is only concerned with getting your alignment " close " and probably 50 % are but 50 % are not ..........ROLO ( Outlaw ) LAZER is going for ...PERFECT...and with the equipement they have designed ( originally for NASCAR ) CAN ACHIEVE PERFECT..........it's as simple as that.....just get it done........IMHO ....Mike

[Lamonster]

Good explanation. (I love the analogy, too, having spent some time in tail-draggers myself.) I will add one more thing. The Spyder's suspension geometry is such that the toe-in changes as it is loaded and unloaded. That means that no matter how precise the factory sets the alignment, it will be different for each rider under actual road conditions. The factory can't know what weight rider will own which machine or where an owner will set his/her suspension preload (pre-2013), so they shoot for an average number at best. The BRP procedure does not allow the suspension to be loaded during alignment, so it can't compensate without extensive trial and error adjustments. The Outlaw laser procedure can dial things in more precisely, plus they have observed and calculated the necessary compensation adjustments. Is laser alignment necessary...not for some riders, but if you are having problems, ride mostly two-up, have changed suspension settings or components, or have damaged the suspension, an aftrermarket alignment is probably adviseable. JMHO

BRP does load the suspension at the factory and it changes at most 1/2" with a 300lb+ rider.

[SpyderDen]

Lamont and Harvey did the procedure today on my 2011 RTS SE5. I have Elkas, Bajaron antiswaybar, Pitbull shock relocators installed. The biggest change that I noticed was while taking our less than Tail of Dragon type turns, the Spyder wanted to make the turn on its own. Very little input needed from the rider. Thanks Lamont and Harvey.

[NancysToy]

BRP does load the suspension at the factory and it changes at most 1/2" with a 300lb+ rider.

The important number is really the amount of toe-in change as the suspension is loaded, not how far the suspension moves. BRP does a much better job for an "average" weight rider than they used to. The increased toe-in spec helped, too. Heavy riders still have trouble (or at least they did up through 2012). That's one reason the raised ride height brought on by Elka shocks helped. The factory system is not the difficulty, it is the change in toe caused by the suspension geometry, and the difficulty in making compensating adjustments when using the BRP shop manual procedure. If there were no problems there would be no need for a system like Outlaw alignment. JMHO

[BajaRon]

The important number is really the amount of toe-in change as the suspension is loaded, not how far the suspension moves. BRP does a much better job for an "average" weight rider than they used to. The increased toe-in spec helped, too. Heavy riders still have trouble (or at least they did up through 2012). That's one reason the raised ride height brought on by Elka shocks helped. The factory system is not the difficulty, it is the change in toe caused by the suspension geometry, and the difficulty in making compensating adjustments when using the BRP shop manual procedure. If there were no problems there would be no need for a system like Outlaw alignment. JMHO

There is more too it than this as the 'Out Of Alignment' numbers are many times different on each side. If it were a simple matter of more or less weight causing misalignment you would get the same amount of out of spec. deflection on each side.

When one side is 1-1/2" out and the other side is 3/4" out that's just bad alignment. That is also why bad front tire wear is many times worse on one side than it is on the other.

No amount of ride height adjustment is going to compensate for this.