Thermal event

[YIRYDE]

That was my 2010 RT that was put out with a fire extinguisher. It also caught on fire while I was riding it. The fuel cap recall came out immediately after. You are correct, BRP did absolutely NOTHING but tell me to take it up with my insurance. Unfortunately, the bike was not totaled by Foremost Insurance company. Instead they claimed it was worth $23,000, hence, not the 70% they needed to total it. Really, who is going to say a burned motorcycle is worth that amount? They just didn't want to total it. After approximately $11,000 in repairs and six months later, I picked it up still reeking of gasoline. My final receipt even states it smells of gas. Rather than take it home to my garage and risk my house burning down, I drove it directly to another dealership and dumped it for $15,000. Sad part is...someone may be riding that death trap at this very moment!!!!!! That weighs on my conscience. Being an ER nurse I see a lot of motorcycle accidents and burn victims. It scares me to think that bike was not sent to auction. I wrote a letter to the CEO at BRP pleading my case and was met with resistance. BRP would not budge from their "let your insurance handle it" answer. They didn't care about my safety. And, they certainly didn't care about a damaged and unrepairable bike being back on the road. So, in my opinion: they don't care about the present owner either. Hate to sound so bitter but these are the facts.

Glad Ann is okay and it is nice to see BRP respond. I hope BRP will make it right by giving her a brand new spyder. The NHTSA is an excellent resource. I was told to contact the Attorney General's office, BBB, etc. This was a nightmare for me. I put it in the crap happens folder of life and have moved on. But, I had to comment when you mentioned my bike. I have a 2013 RT now equipped with a fire extinguisher (in case I need it for me). I asked BRP for the difference in cost, not a new bike, and they wouldn't even do that. I thought this was a reasonable request. At any rate, I have said my peace. Just wanted to leave you with my side of the story.

I don't plan on being on here again because I am exhausted with this ordeal and don't want to relive it. But, if anyone needs my information to help their case, I can be reached at knightsabot@gmail.com I kept excellent records, research and other documents.

Thanks for reading,
Tammie

I hope that after this incident that BRP contacts the new owner of this Spyder and thoroughly check it or replace it since it still smelled like gas when Tammie sold it to the dealer.

[Mackingangsta]

SpyderAnn, we're very sorry to hear about what happened and would like to reassure you that BRP is taking this event very seriously; we will of course be launching a full investigation effective immediately.
Furthermore, rest assured that regardless of the outcome, we'll do everything we can to make it right for you.

I just took delivery of a 2013 rt and I to have a gas smell after riding awhile brp please get to the bottom of this I really enjoy my spyder but I love my health also.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Can someone tell me why the picture in the middle does not appear to have been taken at the same location as the two on each side of it. Notice the line of electric poles in the left picture, and none in the middle one? Also, the roadway markings are the same in the two pictures showing the wet spot and what is left, but the center photo does not have any broken white lines as the other two have. The lanes and concrete dividers do not appear to be the same. I think maybe who ever posted these three pictures may have made a mistake and placed the one in the middle in error. I think it was a different event. (just saying)

OK YOUR POST TICKS ME OFF...You probably believe in " The 911 Theory that the Twin Towers were blown up internally "...not by Aircraft ! ! ! ...I'm glad you are only a 4 poster .........keep it that way..........Mike

[captblack]

That was my 2010 RT that was put out with a fire extinguisher. It also caught on fire while I was riding it. The fuel cap recall came out immediately after. You are correct, BRP did absolutely NOTHING but tell me to take it up with my insurance. Unfortunately, the bike was not totaled by Foremost Insurance company. Instead they claimed it was worth $23,000, hence, not the 70% they needed to total it. Really, who is going to say a burned motorcycle is worth that amount? They just didn't want to total it. After approximately $11,000 in repairs and six months later, I picked it up still reeking of gasoline. My final receipt even states it smells of gas. Rather than take it home to my garage and risk my house burning down, I drove it directly to another dealership and dumped it for $15,000. Sad part is...someone may be riding that death trap at this very moment!!!!!! That weighs on my conscience. Being an ER nurse I see a lot of motorcycle accidents and burn victims. It scares me to think that bike was not sent to auction. I wrote a letter to the CEO at BRP pleading my case and was met with resistance. BRP would not budge from their "let your insurance handle it" answer. They didn't care about my safety. And, they certainly didn't care about a damaged and unrepairable bike being back on the road. So, in my opinion: they don't care about the present owner either. Hate to sound so bitter but these are the facts.

Glad Ann is okay and it is nice to see BRP respond. I hope BRP will make it right by giving her a brand new spyder. The NHTSA is an excellent resource. I was told to contact the Attorney General's office, BBB, etc. This was a nightmare for me. I put it in the crap happens folder of life and have moved on. But, I had to comment when you mentioned my bike. I have a 2013 RT now equipped with a fire extinguisher (in case I need it for me). I asked BRP for the difference in cost, not a new bike, and they wouldn't even do that. I thought this was a reasonable request. At any rate, I have said my peace. Just wanted to leave you with my side of the story.

I don't plan on being on here again because I am exhausted with this ordeal and don't want to relive it. But, if anyone needs my information to help their case, I can be reached at knightsabot@gmail.com I kept excellent records, research and other documents.

Thanks for reading,
Tammie

Tammie, I am sorry to hear about your issue and am very glad that you are physically ok. I do think, however, that Ann's situation is completely different than yours.

You had a 2010 and from what you wrote, your fire was sometime last year. I am sure you had a number of miles on it and had enjoyed it with no problems. I would think that BRP might have looked at the age of the machine for their response - not to duck the issue but to put it in the proper light. From their standpoint, your bike had been serviced or maybe even repaired in the past. Who knows if that might led to the problem. I am not, in any way, trying to minimize your case but I do think things are different now. I think the real problem was with your insurance company. They sure don't seem to have been on your side!

Ann has had problems from day one with her ride and made every effort to get things corrected. I don't know about her local dealer but I have read about each of her problems and they seemed to be troubleshooting the symptoms and not the cause of all of her problems. I do know that there are some dealers that don't seem to think 'outside the box' when it comes to problem solving so who knows. I am pretty sure that as BRP looks at her case they will probably find that there was a defect from the factory - hopefully they will not find a design problem - but I believe they will correct the problem. I will also be surprised if Ann doesn't ride off with a brand new Spyder in the near future.

I have known for quite a while that BRP monitors this forum and I have even found a couple of folks at my dealership, including the service manager, that looks in now and then.

I see you have a new Spyder and I hope you ride safe and truly enjoy the freedom it can give you.

[eagleeye299]

Can someone tell me why the picture in the middle does not appear to have been taken at the same location as the two on each side of it. Notice the line of electric poles in the left picture, and none in the middle one? Also, the roadway markings are the same in the two pictures showing the wet spot and what is left, but the center photo does not have any broken white lines as the other two have. The lanes and concrete dividers do not appear to be the same. I think maybe who ever posted these three pictures may have made a mistake and placed the one in the middle in error. I think it was a different event. (just saying)

The second photo is from the grassy knoll.

[Bob Denman]

You are awesome! I love your additude about this. In spite of it all, your humor is still with us. Your a class act, a real credit to the Syder family.

BRP has been on here a lot more than you know.

They do keep an ear to the ground; they stay in the background unless the circumstances require a more direct approach.


While we're at it; let's give Flash half a break here... (Notice the number of posts; he hasn't learned the dynamics yet.)

[Magdave]

Here is my grassy knoll theory. Anne's purge valve went bad possibly contaminating the evap canister. That was less than 2 weeks ago. IF the canister was checked then either the new valve was bad or one of the rubber hoses to/from the canister became dislodged and allowed gas fumes inside the Tupperware. Same if the canister was not checked possible gas in canister, hose was dislodged, or improperly installed and fumes again. Once ignited it was down hill from there. If these things are boiling gas ( they are) then we are all having a possibility of increased fuel system pressures causing the canister to overload. BRP needs to fix the boiling fuel tank issue IMHO that would be a good start. Obviously it would require a recall and some type of insulation between the engine and tank and possibly a better air circulation modification for the engine area. There have been enough reports about the boiling tank/stuck gas cap (from pressure I believe ) and fuel smell for BRP to get on the stick ASAP. I could be wrong but this seems the most likely scenario to me. Here is a little primer on the Evap in general from Autozone. Obviously the BRP system is not limiting all the fuel vapors it should. Does your car ever smell like gas after a long drive?

"EVAP Canister
The canister is filled with carbon pellets used to absorb and store fuel vapors. Fuel vapor is stored in the canister until the control module determines that the vapor can be consumed in the normal combustion process.
EVAP Control System
The evaporative emission (EVAP) control system limits fuel vapors from escaping into the atmosphere. Fuel tank vapors are allowed to move from the fuel tank, due to pressure in the tank, through the vapor pipe, into the EVAP canister. Carbon in the canister absorbs and stores the fuel vapors. Excess pressure is vented through the vent line and EVAP vent solenoid to atmosphere.
The EVAP canister stores the fuel vapors until the engine is able to use them. At an appropriate time, the control module will command the EVAP purge solenoid ON, open, allowing engine vacuum to be applied to the EVAP canister. With the EVAP vent solenoid OFF, open, fresh air will be drawn through the solenoid and vent line to the EVAP canister. Fresh air is drawn through the canister, pulling fuel vapors from the carbon.
The air/fuel vapor mixture continues through the EVAP purge pipe and EVAP purge solenoid into the intake manifold to be consumed during normal combustion. The control module uses several tests to determine if the EVAP system is leaking.
The EVAP system consists of the following components:
EVAP Purge Solenoid
The EVAP purge solenoid controls the flow of vapors from the EVAP system to the intake manifold. This normally closed solenoid is pulse width modulated (PWM) by the control module to precisely control the flow of fuel vapor to the engine. The solenoid will also be opened during some portions of the EVAP testing, allowing engine vacuum to enter the EVAP system.
EVAP Service Port
The EVAP service port is located in the EVAP purge pipe between the EVAP purge solenoid and the EVAP canister. The service port is identified by a green colored cap.
EVAP Vent Solenoid
The EVAP vent solenoid controls fresh airflow into the EVAP canister. The solenoid is normally open. The control module will command the solenoid closed during some EVAP tests, allowing the system to be tested for leaks.
Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor
The FTP sensor measures the difference between the pressure or vacuum in the fuel tank and outside air pressure. The control module provides a 5-volt reference and a ground to the FTP sensor. The FTP sensor provides a signal voltage back to the control module that can vary between 0.1-4.9 volts. As FTP increases, FTP sensor voltage decreases, high pressure = low voltage. As FTP decreases, FTP voltage increases, low pressure or vacuum = high voltage."

[Bob Denman]

Dave,
That's a good explanation of the systems that could have been invovled; but we still need an ignition source...

[NancysToy]

Jumping to conclusions about the cause/causes of this incident is fruitless. There could be many possible reasons, and even more complicating factors or components. The extent of the damage makes reconstructing the exact cause impossible. The initial location of the fire on the right side points to the evap system componenets, but it also points to fuel lines and electrical wiring. As Bob pointed out, three things are needed for fire...fuel, air, and an ignition source. The fuel/air mixture must also be within the flammable range...neither too high nor too low. Given the lack of direct evidence, the cause of this one will, sadly, never likely be known. There is no sense in pointing fingers at the systems or components...or the Spyder's bad habits. Hopefully BRP will use this as a catalyst to take a closer look at some of these systems and reported problems, but expecting a quick, firm answer or unwisely modifying a Spyder as a knee-jerk response, is not adviseable. All any of us can do for now is have sympathy for Ann, be thankful that she was not injured, and wonder what happened.

[Magdave]

Dave,
That's a good explanation of the systems that could have been invovled; but we still need an ignition source...

Engine/exhaust heat is enough to cause spontaneous combustion. Ever hear of gassy rags in a closed room combusting? The flashpoint of fuel vapor is pretty low and a hot exhaust will do it.


http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/...istopher.shtml

[Pennyrick]

Jumping to conclusions about the cause/causes of this incident is fruitless. There could be many possible reasons, and even more complicating factors or components. The extent of the damage makes reconstructing the exact cause impossible. The initial location of the fire on the right side points to the evap system componenets, but it also points to fuel lines and electrical wiring. As Bob pointed out, three things are needed for fire...fuel, air, and an ignition source. The fuel/air mixture must also be within the flammable range...neither too high nor too low. Given the lack of direct evidence, the cause of this one will, sadly, never likely be known. There is no sense in pointing fingers at the systems or components...or the Spyder's bad habits. Hopefully BRP will use this as a catalyst to take a closer look at some of these systems and reported problems, but expecting a quick, firm answer or unwisely modifying a Spyder as a knee-jerk response, is not adviseable. All any of us can do for now is have sympathy for Ann, be thankful that she was not injured, and wonder what happened.

Wise words that help extinguish a flammable topic.

[Magdave]

Jumping to conclusions about the cause/causes of this incident is fruitless. There could be many possible reasons, and even more complicating factors or components. The extent of the damage makes reconstructing the exact cause impossible. The initial location of the fire on the right side points to the evap system componenets, but it also points to fuel lines and electrical wiring. As Bob pointed out, three things are needed for fire...fuel, air, and an ignition source. The fuel/air mixture must also be within the flammable range...neither too high nor too low. Given the lack of direct evidence, the cause of this one will, sadly, never likely be known. There is no sense in pointing fingers at the systems or components...or the Spyder's bad habits. Hopefully BRP will use this as a catalyst to take a closer look at some of these systems and reported problems, but expecting a quick, firm answer or unwisely modifying a Spyder as a knee-jerk response, is not adviseable. All any of us can do for now is have sympathy for Ann, be thankful that she was not injured, and wonder what happened.

I hear ya but looking at / fixing a boiling gas tank issue is not a knee jerk reaction. You know it has been reported many times on this forum. Wondering about what happened will not make any of us with 2013's safer. As I said it is just a theory and I bet it is a good one. Something for BRP to think about you and I are not going to fix it but as you have seen enough after market cooling mods are out there if there wasn't a need no one would buy them.

[Bob Denman]

Now we just have to wait and see what her next ride is gonna be...

[shelbydave]

Obviously the BRP system is not limiting all the fuel vapors it should. Does your car ever smell like gas after a long drive?

Yup. It's 30 years old, and still the most fun car in my stable...

BTW... other than the first time I filled my Spyder, I don't smell gas fumes after any ride. That tells me the system functions properly.

Jumping to conclusions about the cause/causes of this incident is fruitless. There could be many possible reasons, and even more complicating factors or components. The extent of the damage makes reconstructing the exact cause impossible. The initial location of the fire on the right side points to the evap system componenets, but it also points to fuel lines and electrical wiring. As Bob pointed out, three things are needed for fire...fuel, air, and an ignition source. The fuel/air mixture must also be within the flammable range...neither too high nor too low. Given the lack of direct evidence, the cause of this one will, sadly, never likely be known. There is no sense in pointing fingers at the systems or components...or the Spyder's bad habits. Hopefully BRP will use this as a catalyst to take a closer look at some of these systems and reported problems, but expecting a quick, firm answer or unwisely modifying a Spyder as a knee-jerk response, is not adviseable. All any of us can do for now is have sympathy for Ann, be thankful that she was not injured, and wonder what happened.

[napper39]

i just read this ann like every one else im so glad your ok,and hope you poost the out come and how you are treated about geting a new spyder,you deserve the best treatment by b r p,and hope that hapens soon.im on your side in ever respect and if theres anything i can do to help just let me know.my phone no 7852141657,call or email me if i can do any thing,napper39@yahoo.com.

[TuckMiddle]

Ann, I join the others in saying how glad we are that you reacted quickly and did the right things, preventing personal injury comes first.
My 2011RTSM5 started dripping fuel and stinking up the garage at 8000 miles. It got so bad I had to park it outside for a couple hours after each ride. Even left the garage doors open sometimes. Installed a big fan I had from the ceiling and ran it 24 hours to force the smell out. Dealer had a bit of a hassle to get the tech folks to send another canister and purge valve, but they finally did. I had already run the vent line to the rear wheel area to get the dripping away from the pipes, Cat and muffler. The change didn't help, stunk like crazy with big area when it dripped until the line emptied. Dealer fought and tech people called me acting like this was the first they ever had and the nice lady finally agreed to send new stuff again.I never fill it up, I have had enough old bikes to know to leave some room in the tank. So, when the new canister and valve didn't do anything, out they came. Immediately, the stench stopped, droppings stopped and all seemed well. I had also wrapped the pipes, put insulation over the tank, etc. at 34000, the bike is perfect as far as the fuel problem goes and never drips at all. I check it after every shutdown. The canisterectomy did it for me, it hasn't worked for all, but most, per the posts here. I still carry a pretty good sized fire bottle in the frunk. Not sure it would help in a situation like yours, but it makes me feel a little less paranoid. Someone remarked way back in this post that the 2013 fire problems are nothing like the earlier RT. I'm not so sure that is a fact. The excessive heat in the 13 may result in more fire problems, but I'd place a pretty heavy bet the fuel venting is a basic problem area in many RTs and maybe others?....
Tuck

[shelbydave]

Ann, I join the others in saying how glad we are that you reacted quickly and did the right things, preventing personal injury comes first.
My 2011RTSM5 started dripping fuel and stinking up the garage at 8000 miles. It got so bad I had to park it outside for a couple hours after each ride. Even left the garage doors open sometimes. Installed a big fan I had from the ceiling and ran it 24 hours to force the smell out. Dealer had a bit of a hassle to get the tech folks to send another canister and purge valve, but they finally did. I had already run the vent line to the rear wheel area to get the dripping away from the pipes, Cat and muffler. The change didn't help, stunk like crazy with big area when it dripped until the line emptied. Dealer fought and tech people called me acting like this was the first they ever had and the nice lady finally agreed to send new stuff again.I never fill it up, I have had enough old bikes to know to leave some room in the tank. So, when the new canister and valve didn't do anything, out they came. Immediately, the stench stopped, droppings stopped and all seemed well. I had also wrapped the pipes, put insulation over the tank, etc. at 34000, the bike is perfect as far as the fuel problem goes and never drips at all. I check it after every shutdown. The canisterectomy did it for me, it hasn't worked for all, but most, per the posts here. I still carry a pretty good sized fire bottle in the frunk. Not sure it would help in a situation like yours, but it makes me feel a little less paranoid. Someone remarked way back in this post that the 2013 fire problems are nothing like the earlier RT. I'm not so sure that is a fact. The excessive heat in the 13 may result in more fire problems, but I'd place a pretty heavy bet the fuel venting is a basic problem area in many RTs and maybe others?....
Tuck

I find this post interesting... As a guy that likes to tear things apart to see what is going on... My 2012 RT is still totally stock - no canister removal, and I don't have the gas smell. Did they just change the canister, or did they change out all the evap system parts?

[SilverCruiser]

I think you need to change it to SpyderAngel, because there was definitely one watching over you. So glad you are OK

SpyderAngel sounds perfect

[Tango]

I test rode 2 BRP demo's at a local dealer near me. One had no smell at all. The other reeked of gas! I mentioned to the tech handling the intro to the rides that I smell gas. His reply, "they all do"! I had planned to purchase an RT next month. Waiting on news of the 2014's. My wife has voiced her opinion of serious concerns with the fires. Remember, we test rode the one in Johnstown that "perished" in fire. And I was there to ride it again. It was still smoldering when we got there. Tom

[Magdave]

On the 2013 RT's the EVAP hose goes through the right side plate into a dimple that has a plastic stop. Only 1/2 inch of hose actually sticks out of the panel but it has another ~1/2 inch of plastic collar inside the dimple it sticks through. If that hose should ever get pushed up inside it will exhaust inside what for all intents is the engine compartment vs. the outside air. If it did you may look there and think that collar IS the hose. If you are getting gas smell that hose should be the first place to check. Luckily for me I have not had the smell...yet and I do check the hose from time to time by touching it with the tip of my finger and giving it a sniff. So far nothing but my sweet finger smell

[Bob Denman]

SpyderAngel sounds perfect

That sure does sound like the perfect name for her!

[Pogo]

it suits me alot better than charcoal black

Once you've had black, there's no going back.

Sorry that this has happened to you Ann. I hope that you come out of it with the same sense of humour you have shown here.

The bike can be replaced, but you are a one-off.

Pogo.

2008 GS. So far fireproof.

[TuckMiddle]

I find this post interesting... As a guy that likes to tear things apart to see what is going on... My 2012 RT is still totally stock - no canister removal, and I don't have the gas smell. Did they just change the canister, or did they change out all the evap system parts?

Both things both times. The second time, they changed tha canister first, thinking maybe it got "infected" with gas in the lines, but it still was doing everything. Then they changed to the second replacement purge valve and it still was screwed up. So, out came both and everything is fine at 34,000 + miles, not one drop or one "smelly" incident. Some bikes do it and some don't. And it starts at various times. There still is a lot of heat, but it's almost manageable. I did screw up and wore my shoes to the grocery store, and burned the inside of my right ankle when it touched the plastic. I have one pair of "Triumph" boots and they have melted into the same plastic ridge on the right side. There ios a little bulge by the ankle and it hits the plastic, while other boots don't.
Even if I didn't have fumes and puddles, I'd run the 1/4 inch vent line that come out under the seat all the way back to the left side of the wheel. That keep any fluids away from the CAT, pipes and muffler. All are obvious sources of a lot of heat.

Tuck

[shadow0401]

After reading all the posts about Ann's fire, glad she is fine and kept her wits and was able to
get the spyder off the road and away from it before it went up in flames.

This is just my thought. Someone said they were going to start carrying a fire extinguisher, that's
fine. But how effective is an extinguisher going to be on a spyder? It's not a two wheeler where
everything is exposed and you could knock a fire down. You have an enclosed engine and you are not going to get to the source of the fire without removing tupperware.

One solution would be to have an on board fire suppressant system like they have in race cars,
but then that would add $$$$ to the cost of the spyder

Again, glad Ann is fine and I hope BRP resolves the problem.

[shelbydave]

After reading all the posts about Ann's fire, glad she is fine and kept her wits and was able to
get the spyder off the road and away from it before it went up in flames.

This is just my thought. Someone said they were going to start carrying a fire extinguisher, that's
fine. But how effective is an extinguisher going to be on a spyder? It's not a two wheeler where
everything is exposed and you could knock a fire down. You have an enclosed engine and you are not going to get to the source of the fire without removing tupperware.

One solution would be to have an on board fire suppressant system like they have in race cars,
but then that would add $$$$ to the cost of the spyder

Again, glad Ann is fine and I hope BRP resolves the problem.

I thought the same thing... Only chance may be a dry chemical that you could spray directly into the side vents...?