Ongoing ST heat Mods

[sledmaster]

Is it possible that people not having the heat issues have later delivery dates and the factory made an unpublicized mid year modification?

I am about to purchase a 2013 ST Ltd. Am I crazy????

No I do not believe you are crazy. Many dealers have zero reports from their ST customers of this being a problem. We still have no real hard data on the number of units that are experiencing this issue, so while it might look like a bigger number it could still easily be in the single percentages, or less, of total production. That's why issues like this this take time to resolve. The hard data (not just hearsay) must be accumulated, documented, researched, possible remedies researched, and so on. BRP has never failed me in over 25 years of new snowmobiles, so I have zero doubt they will come through on this as well. Just let them get it sorted out, and if there truly is a problem (there must be if master cylinder parts are seeing heat damage) the affected units will be updated when a fix is ready. And yes, it is common for a manufacturer to make "running changes" on the production line so there can always be differences between models of the same year. They could run out of a part from one vendor, then switch over to the new vendor part. Or they could update a file in the ECU. That is the nature of manufacturing a complete unit from parts and pieces sourced from all over the globe. I am still of the opinion it will be an ECU file change as the most likely at this stage. Since the engine makes heat during combustion, we either need to reduce the heat being produced (fuel delivery, ignition timing) or do a better job at removing the heat (cooling system, air flow, etc.). The thing to remember is that issues can be caused by three basic things; engineering, or design of the vehicle; calibration, or adjustments and settings; or operating conditions, things like environment, operator, weather, fuel, things that can vary day to day. Anytime an issue is reported, one has to sort out to what degree it is caused by the design, how much of it is a calibration issue, and how much of it is the conditions.

[Saluda]

We too have been with them (BRP-CanAm) for many years and still feel their sleds are the best. Are they the most costumer friendly company, definately not. That said the prior post I felt was great. Not just the continual "I'm glad I didn't buy a 2013" and how terrible the models are.
As stated many times prior (and not doubting or knocking those with real issues) I am very happy with my STS and it has displayed no issues to this point.
Also my sympathy to those with real issues and the hope they are resolved quickly and to your satisfaction. Best of luck.
To those considering a 2013, I would not hesitate. Pick a good dealer, easier said than done. Our area of the country (New England) does not experience the constant super high temperatures. If you do I may hesitate at this point.

[JacqueTanis]

I have wrapped my pipe with titanium wrap (got very little improvement). Now I am trying a new heat barrier on the back side of the plastic panels. So far i am finding a very noticable improvement. I want to test it one more time this week when the temps are in the upper 80's. If all goes well (as I expect) then I will make public what my fix is. I got very good feedback today on my ride (about 2.5-3 hours of road time).

I added heat barrier to the plastic panels as well - hardly helped at all. What brand are you using? Maybe I'll add some more - can't wait to see your "fix"!

[JacqueTanis]

So far we have wrapped the pipes...1" over-lap....water wetter in radiator ....ceramic heat shield on gas tank...a temporary heat shield to protect master cylinder.....a flash from PitBull on ECM to richen up fuel...2000 miles spark plugs went from chalky white to a mocha color...which is good color...all the heat that was coming out near handlebars is gone....still concerned about mpg...some times 36....and after 400 miles start getting a lot less...more like 20's..that makes no sense....but I'll take her out this weekend and try and run a few tanks thur the spyder...so far...so good.....but concerns for any permanent damage is still unknown to the engine

Hi ... what ceramic heat shield did you use for the gas tank and how did you wrap it? Also, the temp heat shield for the MC? What did you use and how? Also, my husband and I have been brainstorming - he suggested maybe adding a limiter to the fan so that it will come on quicker and stay on longer. Won't stop the engine from heating up but may help it to stay cooler longer. What do you think?

[Jharpo]

It does seem strange that not all ST ryders are experiencing extreme heat problems. What if, not all catalytic converters are created equal? What if those of us that are experiencing extreme heat problems happened to get a ST with a bad catalytic converter or even a bad muffler? If either of those components was partially blocked in some way, wouldn't that restrict the movement of hot gases toward the tail pipe and cause extreme heat on any part or body part that is too close to the pipes that carry these gases? Just an idea. Short of replacing or removing the catalytic converter, is there any way of checking this?

[JacqueTanis]

It does seem strange that not all ST ryders are experiencing extreme heat problems. What if, not all catalytic converters are created equal? What if those of us that are experiencing extreme heat problems happened to get a ST with a bad catalytic converter or even a bad muffler? If either of those components was partially blocked in some way, wouldn't that restrict the movement of hot gases toward the tail pipe and cause extreme heat on any part or body part that is too close to the pipes that carry these gases? Just an idea. Short of replacing or removing the catalytic converter, is there any way of checking this?

My dealer had The Angel for 6 hours, hooked up on the computer and went over it from front to back. Checked every system - nothing wrong there!

[hchays]

I am testing the Thermo Tec Thermo Guard FR heat barrier. It is a foil coated fiber insulation. Not the cheap foam or foil tape that BRP put on the backside of the panels. The fiber does not transfer heat like the foam, thus creating a better barrier. I am in the belief that the heat issue is solely do to the exhaust being so close to the side panel and the cat converter being so close to increase heat in the pipe. I agree with BRP that there is no issue mechanically, it is totally a design flaw. I would like to make one more test run this weekend and report back. If at that point all tests are positive you can purchase the barrier yourself or I will do most of the work for you. IF all tests are positive I will offer to mail you pre-cut barrier to fit your RS or ST Spyder. All you will have to do is remove your side panels ( upper and lower left side panels ) and use an off the shelf automotive spray adhesive and apply the pre-cut panels. It will take most people less than 1 hour to complete. If anyone is interested in pre-cut panels let me know by PM'ing me.

I added heat barrier to the plastic panels as well - hardly helped at all. What brand are you using? Maybe I'll add some more - can't wait to see your "fix"!

[flamingobabe]

Hi ... what ceramic heat shield did you use for the gas tank and how did you wrap it? Also, the temp heat shield for the MC? What did you use and how? Also, my husband and I have been brainstorming - he suggested maybe adding a limiter to the fan so that it will come on quicker and stay on longer. Won't stop the engine from heating up but may help it to stay cooler longer. What do you think?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...+sticky+shield this is what we purchased for the gas tank...good luck

[sledmaster]

I am in the belief that the heat issue is solely do to the exhaust being so close to the side panel and the cat converter being so close to increase heat in the pipe.

This would place the root cause of the heat issue as being the new location of the cat converter on the 2013s compared to earlier models. I suppose the CAT was moved out of the silencer so there would be a CAT on the bike regardless of which silencer/end pipe system was installed. Moving the CAT further upstream would move pipe heat, so this seems to be logical.

This theory should be reinforced by those who have installed the new blocking panels to close off the gaps between the side pods and the body panels on pre-2013s (without the moved CAT) and they don't have the heat issues like the 2013s. That would leave the new CAT location as the "difference".

Looks like extensive shielding or hoping for a new cat/exhaust design at this point. But why do some units report this heat as a problem and others do not.....variances in the CAT itself? Curious. Would be interesting take a couple of the cat converters to see if there are significant differences in their ability to flow. Has anyone had this replaced as an attempt to fix? Or swapped with another unit that doesn't seem to get hot?

[Spydr in KS]

This would place the root cause of the heat issue as being the new location of the cat converter on the 2013s compared to earlier models. I suppose the CAT was moved out of the silencer so there would be a CAT on the bike regardless of which silencer/end pipe system was installed. Moving the CAT further upstream would move pipe heat, so this seems to be logical.

This theory should be reinforced by those who have installed the new blocking panels to close off the gaps between the side pods and the body panels on pre-2013s (without the moved CAT) and they don't have the heat issues like the 2013s. That would leave the new CAT location as the "difference".

Looks like extensive shielding or hoping for a new cat/exhaust design at this point. But why do some units report this heat as a problem and others do not.....variances in the CAT itself? Curious. Would be interesting take a couple of the cat converters to see if there are significant differences in their ability to flow. Has anyone had this replaced as an attempt to fix? Or swapped with another unit that doesn't seem to get hot?

I think someone removed the cat, wonder if it made a difference in heat?

[JacqueTanis]

I think someone removed the cat, wonder if it made a difference in heat?

A lot of people have removed the CAT. Unfortunately I have a new bike and BRP said it would void my warranty - too bad because that's where the heat is probably coming from - that's the word on the street anyway!

[OldDog]

Would it seem logical to relocate the cat converter back to the muffler and outside the body panels? I think this question has been previously raised.

[SexxyAdina]

Hi I am a brand new owner of a ST Limited I almost have 1000 miles on it and have own it for about a month. I am having the heat blow on my right leg to the point where I got scorched so badly that I had to put burn medicine on it. I went to live chat and spoke to awins so I am going to try to contact spyderpops to see if they have something to help me. The pain I am going through with my ankle is nothing I would wish on anyone. So in the mean time I order half chaps to wrap around my lower part of my legs and I also went to Advance auto and purchase a heat barrier that was 7 x24 to wrap my ankle inside my boot to see if that helps. I love my spyder but I think this is something that BRP should have created something to protect the consumer from. These arent cheap bikes and to have to find and buy additional stuff to ride in comfort isnt a way to be in good standings with Spyder Lovers

[JacqueTanis]

My husband works at the High Speed Test Track at Holloman AFB. They use CORK to shield from the heat of the Rocket motors.SO 1/4" thick. I've ordered some and am going to install it on my panels and as a temporary shield for the Cat Converter while I wait for Spyderpops to come up with the Shield for the ST. Also following another lead and putting ceramic heat shield on the gas tank and we're trying to figure out how to add a couple fans to draw the hot air out of the panels. Wrapped the exhaust pipe and siliconed it!

So, has ANYONE tried CORK? I figure if it can shield from the heat of rocket motors (and was also used for the heat shield tiles on the shuttle) it should be able to shield my leg from that heat on the left side!

ADDITION: John also talked about finding out a start point for the regular running temperature of the Spyder. Does anyone know what it is? He suggested we get a thermostat to set the running temp lower. We need a baseline ???

[Bob Denman]

This is a very interesting idea...
Please let us know how this works!

[hchays]

"Looks like extensive shielding or hoping for a new cat/exhaust design at this point. But why do some units report this heat as a problem and others do not.....variances in the CAT itself?"

I think that it depends on a persons riding style (leg position, traffic, speed and outdoor temp). I would bet that the Cat itself is not the issue. It seems to be more of the position of the pipe and Cat location. On a side note I have taken a couple more rides and feel that the heat barrier that I added to the side panels are a HUGE improvement on the heat issue. I do not have the "burning feeling" that I had before the barrier was added. I do feel a little heat when the fan turns on, but nothing that is not normal. As far as my heat issue I feel it is solved with the new heat barrier.

[Sny]

A lot of people have removed the CAT. Unfortunately I have a new bike and BRP said it would void my warranty - too bad because that's where the heat is probably coming from - that's the word on the street anyway!

Did BRP say this or the dealer? There are laws to the contrary. They can not void your warranty for a modification you have done. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act

However they might use it against you down the line if you have other issues that could be caused by tampering with the exhaust.

I wouldn't recommend removing the cat unless you are very well informed of all the other things this changes and have the technical know-how (or access to someone who does) to compensate for these changes. Removing the cat will make a bike that runs lean even more likely to run lean, or run dangerously lean. You'll go from an uncomfortable ride and melting things to burnt pistons.

[poordom]

My husband works at the High Speed Test Track at Holloman AFB. They use CORK to shield from the heat of the Rocket motors.SO 1/4" thick. I've ordered some and am going to install it on my panels and as a temporary shield for the Cat Converter while I wait for Spyderpops to come up with the Shield for the ST. Also following another lead and putting ceramic heat shield on the gas tank and we're trying to figure out how to add a couple fans to draw the hot air out of the panels. Wrapped the exhaust pipe and siliconed it!

So, has ANYONE tried CORK? I figure if it can shield from the heat of rocket motors (and was also used for the heat shield tiles on the shuttle) it should be able to shield my leg from that heat on the left side!

ADDITION: John also talked about finding out a start point for the regular running temperature of the Spyder. Does anyone know what it is? He suggested we get a thermostat to set the running temp lower. We need a baseline ???

I like the shield that is sold on Amazon.com it looks pretty good.

I have never heard off using cork as a heat dissipating product, sure would be a worthwhile to try.

About the THERMOSTAT, I have mentioned using a lower temperature thermostat in about 2 or 3 of my messages, but no one responded, here is my question again.

ARE THERE DIFFERENT TEMPERATURE RANGE OF THERMOSTATS AVAILABLE FOR THE ROTAX MOTOR ?

Dom

[Sny]

ADDITION: John also talked about finding out a start point for the regular running temperature of the Spyder. Does anyone know what it is? He suggested we get a thermostat to set the running temp lower. We need a baseline ???

I don't know that anyone has seen the engine temps go up in any extreme way... Reducing the engine coolant temps via a different thermostat will just make the engine run less efficiently.

The complaints center around the left side plastic getting hot. The whole time you are noticing high heat from the side panel you can look at the dash and it'll show a nicely temperature controlled engine in the 4-6 bar range. I believe Lamont has a post about what each bar means in degrees F, something like 225F is 5 bars?

The under plastic air temps are not extreme, so I don't believe it's convection. And it's not touching anything so it's not conduction, so it must be direct radiation off the pipes. A stand off heat shield should deflect it away from whatever you want it to not reach. Adhesive shielding or anything that doesn't create a circulating air barrier between the shielding and the thing being shielded will cause the radiant heat to heat the shielding and then conduct it to whatever you're trying to protect. The foam or ceramic or lava rock or cork backing on the adhesive heat barrier will act as an insulator so it will reduce the heat transferred through. Won't stop it completely but it still might help.

[azjerry]

Cork would be a good insulator but I think it would be more difficult to mold to the inside shape of the panels.

[JacqueTanis]

Cork would be a good insulator but I think it would be more difficult to mold to the inside shape of the panels.

It's only 1/4" thick and bends easily. I only need to do it in three pieces so after I make my pattern it will be easy!

[JacqueTanis]

I don't know that anyone has seen the engine temps go up in any extreme way... Reducing the engine coolant temps via a different thermostat will just make the engine run less efficiently.

The complaints center around the left side plastic getting hot. The whole time you are noticing high heat from the side panel you can look at the dash and it'll show a nicely temperature controlled engine in the 4-6 bar range. I believe Lamont has a post about what each bar means in degrees F, something like 225F is 5 bars?

The under plastic air temps are not extreme, so I don't believe it's convection. And it's not touching anything so it's not conduction, so it must be direct radiation off the pipes. A stand off heat shield should deflect it away from whatever you want it to not reach. Adhesive shielding or anything that doesn't create a circulating air barrier between the shielding and the thing being shielded will cause the radiant heat to heat the shielding and then conduct it to whatever you're trying to protect. The foam or ceramic or lava rock or cork backing on the adhesive heat barrier will act as an insulator so it will reduce the heat transferred through. Won't stop it completely but it still might help.

I think you're right! Thank you ...

[hchays]

I just finished a 3 day ride, 840 miles and had no heat issues. The heat barrier that I put on my panels is good to go if anyone wants to solve the heat issue. I also added some barrier to the top panel over the backbone (where the gas tank would normally be). I was as comfortable (temp wise) as I could ever expect.

[flamingobabe]

we can insulate all we want and it does help push BTU's out the exhaust and insulate....but where is the heat coming from and how is BRP going to fix it...have y'all checked your spark plugs to see if they are white, too lean as mine were....or a mocha color that's what the spark plug is suppose to be...if running too lean it is creating more heat

[Sny]

Mine plugs aren't as white as I was expecting, but they're definitely on the lean side.

Makes me want to put a power commander on it. But I hate having to "Fix" something that BRP should already have well under control.

I don't mind removing my cat, but it'll definitely make it more lean, in which case the power commander is back on the table and... it starts getting complicated.