ATTN: ST OWNERS!

[pro10is]

...wrapping the pipes does not make no heat on the Spyder , but it allows the BTU's to flow fast out the exhaust, thus appearing that there is less heat...

I'm sorry but this misinterpretation of what pipe wrap does is invalid for resolving the brake issue and is exactly the kind of misguided attempt at fixing the problem that I'm talking about. The only valid scientific reason to wrap pipes is to allow a small amount of radiated heat to be reflected back into the exhaust gases in an attempt to make them a bit hotter. Hotter exhaust gases are less dense and will flow easier. This is called exhaust scavenging and in some circumstances this will help produce a tiny bit more power. It's used by racers who need to scavenge every bit of power they can get and it is the actual and only valid reason that pipe wrap exists.

However to assume the tiny amount of radiated heat reflected back by the wrap will help resolve the gross amount of heat transferred from the pipes is completely misguided and does not take into consideration the massive amount of convected heat which simply cannot be stopped by pipe wrap or any other type of radiation shielding. Again, please think of an electric kitchen oven. If you blocked all of the infrared radiation given off by the heating element the oven would have absolutely no problem coming up to its full temperature. In fact the new LG ovens do exactly this. The heating element is completely encased under a metal cover to prevent anything spilling on it. The LG engineers knew they could do this because the element does not require any radiated heat at all to heat the oven completely by convection. If you don't believe me then take a trip to your local appliance store and see for yourself. Unless you plan to ride in outer space you cannot stop the heat from your exhaust by simply blocking radiation.

Folks, many motorcycle mechanics are highly talented and they have good intentions at trying to resolve this issue. But they just don't understand the problem because we're dealing with an issue that only a thermodynamics engineer should tackle. I fully understand and sympathize that many of you are looking for a temporary solution until BRP steps up to the plate, but please don't be fooled into believing that any of these temporary solutions are safe, they are not, and your life is on the line if you should lose your brakes. I'm sorry I'm not telling you what you want to hear but I am telling you what you need to hear.

If you want your vehicles to be safe again contact both BRP and the NHTSA and demand a recall and an effective solution.

[spyderyderjim]

Bob,
Please don't get me wrong, my intention is not to rain on anyone's parade and I applaud owners' attempts to try to resolve the problem, however misguided. I'm just very concerned due to two reasons. One, these are brakes we're dealing with here and thus people's lives are at stake, and two, there seems to be a gross misconception on how heat transfers because the attempts at resolving the problem thus far use unscientific and inadequate measures to provide an effective solution. I'm very concerned that anyone may offer or even try to sell these unproven, untested makeshift modifications to people who may believe they will be safe after installing them. We're talking melting brake components here, am I the only one greatly alarmed by this?

For a problem as serious as this anyone who has a vehicle involved should immediately file a report with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration here: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ to make the NHTSA aware of the problem and possibly force a recall. Any design deficiency that could potentially result in the loss of brakes, especially on a motorcycle, should most definitely not be handled by the owners of the vehicles themselves or by any third party. Rather the manufacturer should issue an immediate recall and do whatever is necessary to make the vehicles safe for operation.

Hi (what is your 1st name?,
Do you own/ryde a 2013 Spyder RT/ST? Heat reflective mods done have lowered exhaust temps to prevent gas from boiling in tank; & heat temps LOWERED around brake master cylinder so we can safely continue ryding in 105 deg (Arizona) temps. BRP will have a permanent heat fix in a month or so, then we all can have that change.
My 2013 Spyder RT-S did NOT have melted plastic cover on brake master cylinder after 3,000 miles WITHOUT a heat reflecting cover around it.
I feel that was due to Len at Pit Bull initial setup on 2013 RT-S, flashed ECM so RT fuel ratio runs richer/cooler with slight black, in 2 Bros muffler tailpipe,
Y bypass pipes (Cat removed), #9 Iridium sparkplugs that run cooler.
After exhaust pipe wrap, & heat reflective mods heat temps lowered about half.
Left exhaust pipe without wrap: 285 deg; with wrap 123 deg.
Right exhaust pipe without wrap: 383 deg; with wrap 197 deg.
Temp in front of gas tank 153 deg.
Gas in tank 128 deg, gas cap 116 deg after heat reflective mods, & NO boiling gas.
Temp in front of brake master cylinder heat reflection 184 deg. (after a 30 mile ryde in 101 deg heat).
I did this same wrap, reflective heat shield on 2011 Spyder RT with 22,000 miles trouble/heat free.
People on here are just sharing what heat mods helped CUT DOWN on heat 2013 Spyder RT/ST so we all can continue to ride while BRP comes up with a permanet fix!!
Thank you for your input. Jim

[Lamonster]

I'm sorry Bro but you type a good game but real world tells us what we are doing works. This company does nothing but make heat solutions for automotive products and I would think that if they didn't do the job there would be no company. http://www.thermotec.com

I may not have the science to prove my point but I do have temps before and after to know what works and what doesn't and if my rider comfort improves that's good enough for me. I have done some shots with a thermal imaging to see where the problem areas are.

This is real world, not book world.

I'm sorry but this misinterpretation of what pipe wrap does is invalid for resolving the brake issue and is exactly the kind of misguided attempt at fixing the problem that I'm talking about. The only valid scientific reason to wrap pipes is to allow a small amount of radiated heat to be reflected back into the exhaust gases in an attempt to make them a bit hotter. Hotter exhaust gases are less dense and will flow easier. This is called exhaust scavenging and in some circumstances this will help produce a tiny bit more power. It's used by racers who need to scavenge every bit of power they can get and it is the actual and only valid reason that pipe wrap exists.

However to assume the tiny amount of radiated heat reflected back by the wrap will help resolve the gross amount of heat transferred from the pipes is completely misguided and does not take into consideration the massive amount of convected heat which simply cannot be stopped by pipe wrap or any other type of radiation shielding. Again, please think of an electric kitchen oven. If you blocked all of the infrared radiation given off by the heating element the oven would have absolutely no problem coming up to its full temperature. In fact the new LG ovens do exactly this. The heating element is completely encased under a metal cover to prevent anything spilling on it. The LG engineers knew they could do this because the element does not require any radiated heat at all to heat the oven completely by convection. If you don't believe me then take a trip to your local appliance store and see for yourself. Unless you plan to ride in outer space you cannot stop the heat from your exhaust by simply blocking radiation.

Folks, many motorcycle mechanics are highly talented and they have good intentions at trying to resolve this issue. But they just don't understand the problem because we're dealing with an issue that only a thermodynamics engineer should tackle. I fully understand and sympathize that many of you are looking for a temporary solution until BRP steps up to the plate, but please don't be fooled into believing that any of these temporary solutions are safe, they are not, and your life is on the line if you should lose your brakes. I'm sorry I'm not telling you what you want to hear but I am telling you what you need to hear.

If you want your vehicles to be safe again contact both BRP and the NHTSA and demand a recall and an effective solution.

[pro10is]

Hi (what is your 1st name?,
Do you own/ryde a 2013 Spyder RT/ST? Heat reflective mods done have lowered exhaust temps to prevent gas from boiling in tank; & heat temps LOWERED around brake master cylinder so we can safely continue ryding in 105 deg (Arizona) temps. BRP will have a permanent heat fix in a month or so, then we all can have that change.
My 2013 Spyder RT-S did NOT have melted plastic cover on brake master cylinder after 3,000 miles WIHOUT a heat reflecting cover around it.
I feel that was due to Len at Pit Bull initial setup on 2013 RT-S, flashed ECM so RT fuel ratio runs richer/cooler with slight black, in 2 Bros muffler tailpipe,
Y bypass pipes (Cat removed), #9 Iridium sparkplugs that run cooler.
After exhaust pipe wrap, & heat reflective mods heat temps lowered about half.
Left exhaust pipe without wrap: 285 deg; with wrap 123 deg.
Right exhaust pipe without wrap: 383 deg; with wrap 197 deg.
Temp in front of gas tank 153 deg.
Gas in tank 128 deg, gas cap 116 deg after heat reflective mods, & NO boiling gas.
Temp in front of brake master cylinder heat reflection 184 deg. (after a 30 mile ryde in 101 deg heat).
I did this same wrap, reflective heat shield on 2011 Spyder RT with 22,000 miles trouble/heat free.
People on here are just sharing what heat mods helped CUT DOWN on heat 2013 Spyder RT/ST so we all can continue to ride while BRP comes up with a permanet fix!!
Thank you for your input. Jim

Jim, my first name is Jim.

I do not own a 2013, I own a 2011 RS-S. It too has heat issues but only with burning legs, nothing as serious as melting brake components. I cannot speak for the ECM flash or the cat removal but I can tell you all the heat mods I've done to my Spyder have not worked. I used DEI Titanium heat wrap, removed the pipes and carefully wrapped them with a full overlap. I also installed several reflective and conductive heat barriers of various designs. I tried to measured the temperature of the pipes before wrapping with my infrared thermometer which tops out at 800 °F. It overloaded and returned "Hi" for the temperature as expected. After I wrapped the pipes I again tried to read the temperature. It again read "Hi" so they're still over 800 °F so if there was any improvement it was insignificant. There was no significant improvement of the amount or intensity of heat reaching my legs with any mods I have yet made. There was no use attempting to measure this heat before and after due to the varying dynamics of air flow when riding but again there was no improvement at any speed. I don't understand how anyone can recommend pipe wrap when it's obvious both scientifically and when empirically tested that it cannot and does not work to effectively reduce heat transfer.

I'm not telling anyone here not to try to find a temporary solution for themselves, your life is in your own hands as it should be. I'm only trying to let everyone know not to trust any unproven solution believing it's safe to ride with the melting brake component issue. I've seen no solution so far that has any real merit when it comes to telling others they made ride safely if they install them, even temporarily. I cannot believe anyone else would do so either.

To those of you who propose unproven solutions, think carefully of what you are doing. Do you really want to recommend to someone who may have faith in you a possibly flawed solution when it may cost them their life?

To those of you who may consider any of these unproven solutions, beware, you are not safe until a proven solution exists no matter what anyone says. Proceed at your own risk.

[Jeriatric]

To those of you who may consider any of these unproven solutions, beware, you are not safe until a proven solution exists no matter what anyone says. Proceed at your own risk.

Owners Manual - pg 166

What to do to obtain warranty coverage

The customer must cease using the spyder roadster upon the appearance of an anomaly. The customer must notify a servicing spyder dealer within two (2) days of the appearance of a defect, and provide it with reasonable opportunity to repair it.



CONSUMER ASSISTANCE

In the event of a controversy or a dispute in connection with this limited warranty, BRP suggests that you try to resolve the issue at the dealership level. We recommend discussing the issue with the authorized Spyder Dealer's service manager or owner, before contacting us.


FYI - only

[Zygos]

I'm heading to Montreal in a couple of days and have been working to get my heat under control. So far I pulled both of the splash pans off the bottom and wrapped the left pipe about a foot. I ordered this for the 90 on that side and it should be here Tuesday. http://www.thermotec.com/products/11...at-shield.html
I'm not so sure that cutting the heat shield off was a good idea on yours, as you can see in the link that part of what makes this work is it has built in standoffs in the cover. To me it makes more sense to have that air space there. My temp gun will tell me for sure.

I've also added some 2000 degree heat barrier on the left side where my leg was getting hot. This and the pipe wrap seemed to help a bunch and when Harvey gets here on Wednesday we have a few areas we're going to close off that I know for sure is letting heat in. The one thing that's cooking me is my right foot with these floorboards. I shot the temps right above my foot and it's 176 degrees. We have some ideas how to get that temp down too.

We all have our ways of solving the same problem and as long as it works for you that's what counts. I'm getting there with the mods I've done but still not where I want to be and on this 2000 mile trip this weekend I want to be as cool as I can be. Maybe I'll pull it all off this winter.

Well I for one sir would appreciate any results you will share with the rest of us so we/I may incorporate them on my ST

thank you for your time and efforts

Barry

[pro10is]

I'm sorry Bro but you type a good game but real world tells us what we are doing works. This company does nothing but make heat solutions for automotive products and I would think that if they didn't do the job there would be no company. http://www.thermotec.com

I may not have the science to prove my point but I do have temps before and after to know what works and what doesn't and if my rider comfort improves that's good enough for me. I have done some shots with a thermal imaging to see where the problem areas are.

This is real world, not book world.

Lamont,
I highly respect you and do not wish to contradict you, however you of all people should be extra, extra careful of anything you say in this particular very serious case. What you say is good enough for you will be good enough for almost all, so unless you know for certain, which none of us do at this point including thermotec or BRP, no one including even you should allude that any of these unproven solutions are safe until proven. There is the potential for a fatality here, need I say more? BRP needs to resolve this, and the results need to be proven beyond any doubt and be good enough for all because their lives depend on it.

What you call the book world I call science, and science is all about the real world and what allows these vehicles to even exist.

[Bob Denman]

Let's all just "enhance our calm"... in this "Heated" discussion...
I'm real glad to hear that there are a whole bunch of folks working on this one...
(Put enough heads together, and soon you'll have a real brain!)

For the record I've got an 2010 RT, and have never had heat issues...
Yesterday; I took it for a spin while wearing shorts; something that I've never done before...
I could feel the hot air coming up around my lower legs...
Noticeable; not objectionable.
But everybody has their own personal measure of discomfort...

[OldDog]

Let's all just "enhance our calm"... in this "Heated" discussion...
I'm real glad to hear that there are a whole bunch of folks working on this one...
(Put enough heads together, and soon you'll have a real brain!)

For the record I've got an 2010 RT, and have never had heat issues...
Yesterday; I took it for a spin while wearing shorts; something that I've never done before...
I could feel the hot air coming up around my lower legs...
Noticeable; not objectionable.
But everybody has their own personal measure of discomfort...

Bob this may sound pie in the sky, but has BRP ever considered putting the engine behind the driver. This would be a radical redesign.
Make the frontal area frunk and a ten gallon fuel tank for instance and make it more aerodynamic. Just a thought.

[pro10is]

I'm sorry Bro but you type a good game but real world tells us what we are doing works. This company does nothing but make heat solutions for automotive products and I would think that if they didn't do the job there would be no company. http://www.thermotec.com

I may not have the science to prove my point but I do have temps before and after to know what works and what doesn't and if my rider comfort improves that's good enough for me. I have done some shots with a thermal imaging to see where the problem areas are.

This is real world, not book world.

At the risk of further incurring your or anyone else's wrath please understand that these FLIR scans show only infrared radiation escaping from outside the covers. In order to accurately measure the real world situation you need to remove the covers and take additional scans or use temperature probes to read the convective heat as well. If you don't you cannot correctly and accurately diagnose and assess the actual situation which is critical in the case of the melting brake components.

You don't seem to believe my findings so I include this reference on infrared scanning so you do not have to take just my word for it:
http://www.faithenterprisesinc.com/r...20120123153310

I'm only trying to offer the benefits of my three plus decades of solving highly complex engineering problems in real world manufacturing environments where products and companies will fail if not done properly. I am most certainly not living solely in an academic world only as you seem to imply. I'm sorry you do not respect my lifetime of experience as I do yours.

Anyone else can feel free to flame me but my only crime here is looking out for the safety of my fellow riders.

[NancysToy]

It is the radiating, escaping heat that is causing many of the difficulties. If it can be reduced, the difficulties may well be reduced to a tolerable level. If it can be diverted, same result. It doesn't matter what the source temperature is, just how much is radiated to the rider and the Spyder components. I agree that this is a serious matter, and should be reporte to the NHTSA is master cylinder damage occurs or the brake fluid becomes deteriorated. The same may appl y for the boiling fuel and untouchable gas caps. Meanwhile, if reflectors, heat shields, fans, insulation, or any combination of these things can help, I see no reason not to implement them if an owner wishes to do so. Arguing points of view is serving no purpose. JMHO

[Bob Denman]

Bob this may sound pie in the sky, but has BRP ever considered putting the engine behind the driver. This would be a radical redesign.
Make the frontal area frunk and a ten gallon fuel tank for instance and make it more aerodynamic. Just a thought.

Packaging the engine, transmission, fuel tank and final drive with that parameter as the primary one would be... unwieldy!

[OldDog]

Packaging the engine, transmission, fuel tank and final drive with that parameter as the primary one would be... unwieldy!

And I want it for $14999!

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...ail&FORM=VIRE5

I realize this is apples and oranges but it looks cool! The engine is in the back, but it steers like a car I believe. I prefer the ergos of the Spyder ST.
When BRP resolves this, I think sales of the ST will take off. It is paramount on several levels that they do.

[MidLifeCrisis]

It is the radiating, escaping heat that is causing many of the difficulties. If it can be reduced, the difficulties may well be reduced to a tolerable level.

100%. After applying all said useless and misguided heat wraps/shielding, I've eliminated most riding discomfort associated with heat as well as too hot to touch panels and boiling gas. A useless and misguided endeavor indeed. The added performance and gas mileage is just the icing

[Bob Denman]

Another satisfied customer... with another imperfect solution!
If the horse that you're on wins the Derby; do you care what color it's eyes are?

[pro10is]

100%. After applying all said useless and misguided heat wraps/shielding, I've eliminated most riding discomfort associated with heat as well as too hot to touch panels and boiling gas. A useless and misguided endeavor indeed. The added performance and gas mileage is just the icing

Well then you're a genius because even BRP has not managed to do this. You've solved the heat issues and increased performance and gas mileage to boot. What a guy!

If you're so certain you've solved the problem that has stumped everyone else, have it patented and sell us and BRP your solution. We'll all be in your debt.

[pro10is]

It is the radiating, escaping heat that is causing many of the difficulties. If it can be reduced, the difficulties may well be reduced to a tolerable level. If it can be diverted, same result. It doesn't matter what the source temperature is, just how much is radiated to the rider and the Spyder components. I agree that this is a serious matter, and should be reporte to the NHTSA is master cylinder damage occurs or the brake fluid becomes deteriorated. The same may appl y for the boiling fuel and untouchable gas caps. Meanwhile, if reflectors, heat shields, fans, insulation, or any combination of these things can help, I see no reason not to implement them if an owner wishes to do so. Arguing points of view is serving no purpose. JMHO

I have failed to make even you understand the distinct and vital difference between thermal radiation and convection, and that convection not radiation is the real culprit and danger here and cannot be so easily stopped. Didn't anyone here take high school physics? Does anyone understand what convection is and how it works? The brake reservoir is sitting in a convection oven not a microwave or infrared oven. All that wrap and those shiny, thin shields will never stop or divert convection or conduction. Just because something looks as if it should work does not mean it will work. If I can't make someone as intelligent as you understand and back me up on this when lives may be at stake, I may as well give up. Good Lord. By all means carry on with your "solutions" folks, you all seem to know more than me. If anyone dies, so be it.

I can only imagine several hundred years ago how difficult it must have been to try to make even intelligent people understand the world was round when everyone could very well see and knew damn well it was most certainly flat.

Ride safely everyone and the best of luck to you.

[JKMSPYDER]

Ok, I have a question for our thermodynamics expert. Why is it that when I use a reflective windshield thingy in my front windshield on a hot summer day, the interior is much cooler at the end of the afternoon than if I don't use it. Theory says that if I block out some of the radiant heat, then I'm still going to have the same conductive and convective heat. Can any of you SLers back me up on this if you use a windshield reflective shield on a hot day? Here's my theory. If I can block some of the radiant heat, then a conductive and convective heat will be blocked proportionally. I have had a CD melt on my dash on a hot summer day without a shield, but never when using the shield. I'm not a PhD, nor have a genius IQ, but the windshield reflector works and I have cut down tremendously the heat on my left leg by using exhaust wrap and reflective tape. Hopefully what I have done to block radiant heat from the MC cap will work. Again, if I can keep the heat on the MC cap below the melting point by shielding the cap, isn't that success? I don't mean to question our expert's knowledge, but I can only tell you my real world experience.

[Jeriatric]

Convective and Radiant Heat Transfer Equations



http://blowers.chee.arizona.edu/cooking/heat/convection.html


http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/c.../transfer.html

[Netminder]

I really didn't want to comment on this post as I am definitely not an engineer!But I would have to agree with both sides of this heat control debate. If people are seeing real success in cutting down the heat and preventing melting plastic, ! But that being said, this is definitely a major issue that BRP has to address ASAP (which I am sure/hope they are)as it has the potential for devastating result. I also see by looking at pics that the shield cannot do anything but help, when you have a plastic cap that close to a exhaust,(pretty direct heat!)it is not good. I have a friend who is a mechanic and drives a Harley and when I told him of this issue, he said his Harley has a heat shied in front of the master cylinder for that reason, and to keep the fluid from heating up,so if Harley has it, they have been in the business a long time? Understanding that they are not wrapped in as much Tupperware!

[Jeriatric]

Net, you're correct. The shield will help. Up to a point, because it will block radiant heat. However, once the radiant heat level falls below the tempratures of convective heat. The shield is no longer serving a purpose.

Take you Harley friends heat shield. It sets generally in open air. So, it with the aid of ambient air circulation does what it is designed to do. Protect the master cylinder from radiant heat.

That's not what happens under the tupperware of a spyder. A heat shield will help until convective heat exceeds the shields reflective ability. Convective heat is heat that is trapped inside the tupperware and rolls from the top of the tupperware to the bottom. It is constantly being reheated and cycling as long as the spyder is running. The higher the tempratures you're running the spyder in the higher the tempratures within the tupperware will be. As well, the longer you run the spyder(to a point) the higher the convective heat will build in intensity.

And, you're right again. Someone did not conduct real world testing before this product was released to the public, or this would not be happening.

[Netminder]

Jerbear, yes I do understand what you stated above? Hence the Tupperware comment at the end. I think the only real solution for the Spyder heat issues, is chroming up some of the motor parts and getting rid of some of the Tupperware! What about some of the newer BMW.s or such that seem to have lots of Tupperware? How are they addressing these issues? To much plastic! Bet you Dave and Teddy had no heat issues when they rode Ted's sled naked for a while!

[quickster47]

So, has anyone filed a complaint with the NHTSA regarding heat problems with the ST?

I mean folks keep saying it needs to be done but has anyone actually done it?

Carl

[JKMSPYDER]

Yes I have filed a complaint. They assigned me a case number and I haven't heard from them since. Regarding the MC cap issue, many of us that are shielding the cap are also discarding the bottom plastic panels to help the heat escape. But I realize this won't help much if I am idling at a stop light on a hot day as heat inside the tupperware rises.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Well then you're a genius because even BRP has not managed to do this. You've solved the heat issues and increased performance and gas mileage to boot. What a guy!

If you're so certain you've solved the problem that has stumped everyone else, have it patented and sell us and BRP your solution. We'll all be in your debt.

That's because sometimes you have to take what science tells you and apply some reason, logic and testing to see what the final outcome is. Don't know what to tell you. You keep insisting I've accomplished nothing, because science says so and I keep saying I have, because my wife doesn't burn her legs and behind, since the change, so who are you going to believe.

The one thing the scientific facts you often quote don't take into account is the movement of air. All things you say are factual, but if you can distribute heat across a larger area, such as the headers, apply insulation to the inside of panels, which again helps reduce direct heat and distribute heat across a larger area, then add some air movement, however minimal, maybe, just maybe there may be some successful reduction in perceived heat.

Since my wife perceives less heat and so do I, and the fact that there has been some increase in performance, and mileage, I would call that a success. I suppose that makes me a genius as you so well put it.


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