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  1. #26
    Registered Users flybuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuffs19 View Post
    I'm buying a 2010 RT. is there something i should know about the handling?
    The model years are fairly similar except that the shocks on the 2010 models were too soft and BRP upgraded them in 2011. The best upgrade for you would be the Elka Shocks or to at least upgrade to the 2011 or 12 OEMs. Lots of folks probably have a set laying around as a lot of us have upgraded to Elkas.
    2012 Spyder RT

  2. #27
    Registered Users Cuffs19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flybuddy View Post
    The model years are fairly similar except that the shocks on the 2010 models were too soft and BRP upgraded them in 2011. The best upgrade for you would be the Elka Shocks or to at least upgrade to the 2011 or 12 OEMs. Lots of folks probably have a set laying around as a lot of us have upgraded to Elkas.
    Good to know, thanks!

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    It depends, but probably. Especially if you have stiffened things up to control lean angle.

    Typically the shock spring setting is increased to help counter lean angle. If you look at picture #4 you can see that the outside shock spring resists lean angle but the inside spring (to a lesser degree) is working to increase lean angle. By stiffening spring preload (or getting heavier springs) you increase the differential.

    In other words, you widen the gap. I have no idea what the numbers might be but just picking values out of thin air for example...

    Let's say we have stock springs providing 250 lbs of down force each while riding straight ahead.

    In this fictitious turn, the compressed outside spring provides 400 lbs of resistance to lean angle and the extended inside spring adds 100 lbs. of force, Increasing lean angle. The shock springs are actually working against each other to a certain degree in any turn. In this example the differential is 300 lbs of effective force resisting lean angle.

    We decide we want to decrease lean angle with shock springs so we up the spring rate, or get heavier springs. Now we have 300 lbs of down force from each spring

    In the same turn the outside shock spring now provids 600 lbs of resistance to lean angle while the inside shock spring adds 150 lbs of force increasing lean angle. We have gone from an effective lean angle resistance of 300 lbs to an effective lean angle resistance of 450 lbs. Though the inside shock is contributing more to lean angle than before, the outside shock more than makes up for that increase.

    Again, I'm throwing out bogus numbers simply to make the point. Our resident shock experts would know exactly how this all pans out in real numbers.

    math.jpg
    2010 RT A&C, RT-L, RT-L , Orbital Blue, Cognac, Jet Black

  4. #29
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    You're right, I should have just said 'Yes'. But then you would have asked, 'Why?'. And we'd be right back where we are now.

    The circle is now complete!
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

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  5. #30
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    But it did give me another chance to trot that picture out...
    2010 RT A&C, RT-L, RT-L , Orbital Blue, Cognac, Jet Black

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamonster View Post
    So you're saying the new swaybars will be red?
    That's too funny!!
    2012 RT , stock Lava Bronze

  7. #32
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    Cool Now I understand

    Years ago I tried to get someone to explain it to me. But I never could grasp the thread of data. Now I understand the concept. Thank you Ron! PS your graphics are pretty decent to but I wonder if BRP knows the 14 bars are supposed to be RED?

  8. #33
    Very Active Member Dan_Ashley's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Thank you, Ron.
    I purchased your bar on the advice of members in my Spyder Ryders of America chapter. My complaint was not the twisties, I lust lean like on a quad...my complaint was the super high cross winds we get on interstate 10, just outside of Palm Springs...cross winds sometimes exceed 50mph, and the road wander was annoying me. I will install the bar this coming weekend and report back what changes I perceive. My club says the changes will be significant.

    thank you for the rudimentary suspension tutorial.
    Dan

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  9. #34
    Very Active Member MikeinGA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I get a lot of questions about sway bars and what they will actually do for the Spyder. Here is my feeble attempt at giving a reasonable and, I hope, simple explination.

    To understand what my sway bar will do for you, you have to understand what a sway bar does and how your suspension works. It isn’t rocket science but it is a subject, like oil, where there is a lot of misunderstanding. It just isn’t something that most people are familiar with.

    This is in no way an exaustive treatment of this subject so bear that in mind.

    A sway bar (or Anti-Sway Bar) is simply a SPRING which lurks under most vehicles produced today, quietly doing their job with little or no recognition. The racing enthusiast is quite familiar with sway bars as they are one of the key components to getting around corners quickly and adding control aspects to the vehicle that no other component can.

    There are several suspension components that work together to give us a safe, controlled and comfortable ride. Improve any one of them and you will likely see immediate improvement in the area(s) that are affected by that component. It would be foolish for BRP to build the best possible suspension for our Spyders as that would be very expensive and not necessarily appreciated by every customer.

    Stock suspension on our Spyders is adequate. Yet there is a great deal of improvement to be had if the owner would like better, more controlled handling.

    What we are addressing in this explination are the effects of centrifugal force (lean angle in a turn) or any side forces (wind, buffeting when passing a large truck, etc.) and how to best counteract these forces, most notably in the case of our Spyders, excessive lean.

    There is much more to our suspension, shocks in particular, than just countering centrifugal force. But for this explanation I am only discussing lean angle aspects.

    I'm sure your 2nd grade student could do better with Crayons but please, be kind!


    1st Picture
    This depicts the Spyder going straight ahead without Shocks or Sway Bar. Just 1 A-Arm is shown on each side to keep things simple.

    2nd Picture
    Suspension and body of the Spyder reacts to Centrifugal force (Yellow Arrow) causing the body of the Spyder (Blue Box) to lean to the outside of the turn (exactly the opposite of lean angle on 2 wheels where you must lean to the inside of the turn.)

    3rd Picture
    Shock springs provide equal down force (Green Arrows) holding your Spyder up. Stiffer spring setting will raise the Spyder, lower spring setting will lower your Spyder.

    4th Picture
    Inside Shock - During a turn the Shock on the Inside of the turn (away from the lean angle) extends. This lengthens the spring and reduces down force to that wheel. Though down force is reduced, this inside shock spring is still contributing to lean angle by pushing down on the suspension and raising the high side of the Spyder body, thus adding to lean angle to some degree. This happens until the inside wheel is lifted off the ground. At this point the inside shock has no effect on lean angle.

    Outside Shock – While turning, the Outside Shock is compressed reducing spring length which greatly increases down force to that wheel. This increased down force resists lean angle.

    The greater the lean angle, the more pronounced both of these shock spring effects are. Here are some basic rules of thumb regarding shock spring effects.

    Lower spring Pre-Load setting, lower ride height, increased lean angle in turns, softer, more compliant ride.

    Higher spring Pre-Load setting, increased ride height, less lean angle in turns, harsher, less compliant ride.


    5th Picture
    Remember, the Sway Bar is a Spring attached at 2 points on the frame (
    Blue Box). The ends of the sway bar are attached to the A-Arms. When going straight ahead the Sway Bar has no effect on the suspension what-so-ever. Therefore, a stiffer sway bar cannot effect the harshness or softness of your ride. The sway bar does not hold your Spyder up, so changing the sway bar will not affect ride height.

    6th Picture
    A sway bar WILL NOT eliminate lean. You actually need lean to make everything go smoothly. It is the AMOUNT of lean that you want to reduce with the sway bar.

    A sway bar is simply a straight spring. As with all springs, it is designed to flex with increasing resistance to increased force applied. You can see in this exaggerated picture that a great deal of stress is being applied to the sway bar due to the lean angle of the Spyder body (
    Blue Box). The sway bar is attached to the frame at 2 points. It does not actually bend as depicted, but it is difficult to show how this torsion spring works with my limited skills in diagramming.

    The Sway Bar is always working to stay straight. As the lean increases the Sway Bar applies increasing force to each A-Arm in its attempt to remain straight. Using leverage created by the angle of the A-Arms, the Sway Bar applies force to the Spyder Body (
    Blue Box) in the opposite direction to the lean created by side force.

    Once you ride a Spyder with a Custom Performance Sway Bar you won't need to know any of this because you will feel exactly what I'm talking about every time you encounter a situation where your Spyder used to lean too much.

    I sincerely hope this helps! Being well informed is the best tool any Spyder owner can have in their tool box.
    Don't worry about all the tech stuff. His anti-sway bar works. The first time I road my 2011 RS-S after the installation was great, less body lean and it made my Spyder easier and more fun to ride. It's the best upgrade I have made so far and Lamonster my anti-sway bar is RED.

    Mike

  10. #35
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeinGA View Post
    Don't worry about all the tech stuff. His anti-sway bar works. The first time I road my 2011 RS-S after the installation was great, less body lean and it made my Spyder easier and more fun to ride. It's the best upgrade I have made so far and Lamonster my anti-sway bar is RED.

    Mike
    I agree! For most the tech stuff isn't important because Tech or not, you will experience a big difference in your handling with the bar installed. And that's what it's all about whether you understand the fine points or not...
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

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  11. #36
    Registered Users ACES WILD's Avatar
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    Default How is the nanny affected

    I just read through this whole thread and did not see any mention of how a stiffer bar would affect the computer controls or nanny on the lean angles. Is there any affect or not?? Any one know?

  12. #37
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACES WILD View Post
    I just read through this whole thread and did not see any mention of how a stiffer bar would affect the computer controls or nanny on the lean angles. Is there any affect or not?? Any one know?
    Because the Spyder is more stable with the sway bar installed, the Nanny is happy longer. She is still there to slow you down if you get beyond her parameters.
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

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  13. #38
    Very Active Member robmorg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I agree! For most the tech stuff isn't important because Tech or not, you will experience a big difference in your handling with the bar installed. And that's what it's all about whether you understand the fine points or not...
    Yeah, BUT... There will always be those of us (and I'm one) who want to know WHY it works or HOW it works before paying out the dollars. Thanks for the explanation, Ron.

    Here is another recent thread that further helps to make the advantage of Ron's larger sway bar clear. ..ESPECIALLY the video link posted by Magdave (which contains only SLIGHTLY better graphics than Ron offered ), and PMK's expanded explanations here. (Obviously I had not found this original explanation when I was asking the "why questions" in the newer thread.)

    Between these two threads, I'm sold!!! I called Ron and ordered my sway bar today. free-random-smileys-214.gif My Spyder is in the shop right now getting the ECM update and some heat related fixes. They will also install Ron's sway bar and then do the laser alignment. Can't wait to ride it when I get it back.
    Rob
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    2013 RT Limited , Lava Bronze with Antler Brown Seat

  14. #39
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    Default Love my bajaron anti swaybar.

    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I get a lot of questions about sway bars and what they will actually do for the Spyder. Here is my feeble attempt at giving a reasonable and, I hope, simple explination.

    To understand what my sway bar will do for you, you have to understand what a sway bar does and how your suspension works. It isn’t rocket science but it is a subject, like oil, where there is a lot of misunderstanding. It just isn’t something that most people are familiar with.

    This is in no way an exaustive treatment of this subject so bear that in mind.

    A sway bar (or Anti-Sway Bar) is simply a SPRING which lurks under most vehicles produced today, quietly doing their job with little or no recognition. The racing enthusiast is quite familiar with sway bars as they are one of the key components to getting around corners quickly and adding control aspects to the vehicle that no other component can.

    There are several suspension components that work together to give us a safe, controlled and comfortable ride. Improve any one of them and you will likely see immediate improvement in the area(s) that are affected by that component. It would be foolish for BRP to build the best possible suspension for our Spyders as that would be very expensive and not necessarily appreciated by every customer.

    Stock suspension on our Spyders is adequate. Yet there is a great deal of improvement to be had if the owner would like better, more controlled handling.

    What we are addressing in this explination are the effects of centrifugal force (lean angle in a turn) or any side forces (wind, buffeting when passing a large truck, etc.) and how to best counteract these forces, most notably in the case of our Spyders, excessive lean.

    There is much more to our suspension, shocks in particular, than just countering centrifugal force. But for this explanation I am only discussing lean angle aspects.

    I'm sure your 2nd grade student could do better with Crayons but please, be kind!


    1st Picture
    This depicts the Spyder going straight ahead without Shocks or Sway Bar. Just 1 A-Arm is shown on each side to keep things simple.

    2nd Picture
    Suspension and body of the Spyder reacts to Centrifugal force (Yellow Arrow) causing the body of the Spyder (Blue Box) to lean to the outside of the turn (exactly the opposite of lean angle on 2 wheels where you must lean to the inside of the turn.)

    3rd Picture
    Shock springs provide equal down force (Green Arrows) holding your Spyder up. Stiffer spring setting will raise the Spyder, lower spring setting will lower your Spyder.

    4th Picture
    Inside Shock - During a turn the Shock on the Inside of the turn (away from the lean angle) extends. This lengthens the spring and reduces down force to that wheel. Though down force is reduced, this inside shock spring is still contributing to lean angle by pushing down on the suspension and raising the high side of the Spyder body, thus adding to lean angle to some degree. This happens until the inside wheel is lifted off the ground. At this point the inside shock has no effect on lean angle.

    Outside Shock – While turning, the Outside Shock is compressed reducing spring length which greatly increases down force to that wheel. This increased down force resists lean angle.

    The greater the lean angle, the more pronounced both of these shock spring effects are. Here are some basic rules of thumb regarding shock spring effects.

    Lower spring Pre-Load setting, lower ride height, increased lean angle in turns, softer, more compliant ride.

    Higher spring Pre-Load setting, increased ride height, less lean angle in turns, harsher, less compliant ride.


    5th Picture
    Remember, the Sway Bar is a Spring attached at 2 points on the frame (
    Blue Box). The ends of the sway bar are attached to the A-Arms. When going straight ahead the Sway Bar has no effect on the suspension what-so-ever. Therefore, a stiffer sway bar cannot effect the harshness or softness of your ride. The sway bar does not hold your Spyder up, so changing the sway bar will not affect ride height.

    6th Picture
    A sway bar WILL NOT eliminate lean. You actually need lean to make everything go smoothly. It is the AMOUNT of lean that you want to reduce with the sway bar.

    A sway bar is simply a straight spring. As with all springs, it is designed to flex with increasing resistance to increased force applied. You can see in this exaggerated picture that a great deal of stress is being applied to the sway bar due to the lean angle of the Spyder body (
    Blue Box). The sway bar is attached to the frame at 2 points. It does not actually bend as depicted, but it is difficult to show how this torsion spring works with my limited skills in diagramming.

    The Sway Bar is always working to stay straight. As the lean increases the Sway Bar applies increasing force to each A-Arm in its attempt to remain straight. Using leverage created by the angle of the A-Arms, the Sway Bar applies force to the Spyder Body (
    Blue Box) in the opposite direction to the lean created by side force.

    Once you ride a Spyder with a Custom Performance Sway Bar you won't need to know any of this because you will feel exactly what I'm talking about every time you encounter a situation where your Spyder used to lean too much.

    I sincerely hope this helps! Being well informed is the best tool any Spyder owner can have in their tool box.
    I love my Bajaron anti way bar. Huge improvement over OEM. Thanks for the helpful charts but even more thanks for the helpful discussion and patient answering of my questions.

  15. #40
    Active Member PatriotRider's Avatar
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    Question

    I just purchased a 2010 RT

    and am following the wisdom here closely. I wish to enjoy, safely somewhat reasonably spirited riding in the twisties with my wife aboard (I wasn't healthy enough for a number of years to continue to take her along on 2 wheels, so this is a big deal). We are each at least 225ish pounds. A BajaBob sway bar is at the top of my purchase list. However, I am disabled, supporting a family of 4 hoomans & 4 hounds, so quite financially challenged.

    Is there any reason to also change the links?

    The price of Elka's must be high...sounds like I should post a WTB 2011 or 12 OEM shocks as a reasonable upgrade.

    does this sound right for me ???

    Quote Originally Posted by flybuddy View Post
    The model years are fairly similar except that the shocks on the 2010 models were too soft and BRP upgraded them in 2011. The best upgrade for you would be the Elka Shocks or to at least upgrade to the 2011 or 12 OEMs. Lots of folks probably have a set laying around as a lot of us have upgraded to Elkas.
    let's ride safe & be careful out there,
    Mike in Nawlins'
    2014 Black SE6 Limited "Charlotte"
    New Orleans Ride Captain
    Patriot Guard Riders

  16. #41
    Very Active Member Highwayman2013's Avatar
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    I did not change the links on my 2012 at first, the metal ones were not available. I ran the RT for two years with the plastic links and Bajaron swaybar with no problems. I did upgrade to the metal links earlier this year as a peace of mind thing. The metal links came out in 2013 in response to a bad batch of plastic links failing. Read here:
    http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...rs-amp-Helmets
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  17. #42
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    Cool SWAY BAR - Results?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmorg View Post

    Between these two threads, I'm sold!!! I called Ron and ordered my sway bar today. My Spyder is in the shop right now getting the ECM update and some heat related fixes. They will also install Ron's sway bar and then do the laser alignment. Can't wait to ride it when I get it back.


    Please tell us how that worked out for ya.

    - Jim

  18. #43
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    Default Bottom line

    Will the sway bar on a 2014 RT improve overall handling with everything else stock?

  19. #44
    Very Active Member Devious56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I believe that the 2 most complicated components on the average vehicle are the fuel/air delivery system and the shocks. Speaking difinitively about either one will usually get you into trouble in one respect or another.

    I am always reminded of the twin Amal carburetors on a 650 Triumph Bonneville. If you want to lose your hair, your youth and your mind early, try to tune a set of these!
    I got rid of my Bonneville because of that very reason. My TR6C was a much more enjoyable ride. Very nice explanation of the sway bar action, it's a shame people have to add stuff you weren't talking about.

    David

    How old would you be if you didn't know how old you were?

  20. #45
    Very Active Member Devious56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumbleBeeAZ View Post
    Please tell us how that worked out for ya.

    - Jim
    It will help decrease lean in the corners, and buffeting caused by winds coming from the side, or the pushing around caused by big vehicles going passed.

    David

    How old would you be if you didn't know how old you were?

  21. #46
    Very Active Member Wildrice's Avatar
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    How important are the sway bar links--providing they don't break???
    2015 F3's , two 12 volt power outlets Orange & Black

  22. #47
    Very Active Member Wildrice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    Thanks for this detailed answer to a drawn out question.
    Custom Dynamics Led Project titled "Knight Rider".

    Good Video---Next--another UFO sighting on the freeway :-)
    2015 F3's , two 12 volt power outlets Orange & Black

  23. #48
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildrice View Post
    How important are the sway bar links--providing they don't break???
    The links are important. The stock links are a composite plastic which will stretch / compress under load. This reduces the effect of the sway bar as this non-rigid action absorbs some of the energy that the sway bar is attempting to re-distribute. This stretching/compressing action also fatigues the links over time making them subject to breakage even with the stock bar (though breakage is not common). However, plastic link failure is much more likely with an upgraded sway bar as the energy being transferred increases with the strength of the sway bar.
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

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  24. #49
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    does ron have any conpetors who build sway bars?

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    If he does have any competitors, we have never heard of them.

    If you are trying to justify the expense, I'll just say it's the second-best change we have made.
    The first-best (bestest?) change was to get away from the stock tires.

    .
    HER ride:
    2017 RT-S SE6 Pearl White

    My rides:
    2000 Honda GL1500SE
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