Oil Issues

[BajaRon]

As many of you know I probably spend too much time in Oil research. It can be like pulling teeth to get good, varifiable information and the manufactuer can be the Worst place to look for facts! But if you work at it, you can get pretty close to the truth.

You may also know I am an Amsoil fan. Used to be a Mobil 1 fan until they went to the dark side (SM rating) and abandonded us MA users.

But all of that aside. There have been some oily rumblings that do concern me. Regardless of what brand, weight, how often you change, what filters you use or where you run your level on the dip stick, oil is a very important component in your Spyder's overall health and longevity. You're got pistons, crankshaft, valve train, bearings, transmission, clutch and more all depending on the same lubricant. In some cases, if it fails for just a few seconds you could be in trouble.

These days engines are engineered to run a particular lubricant. Not brand, but properties. The manufacturer sets minimums which almost always can be improved upon, but you NEVER want to fall below those minimum qualities.

My concern is that some have abandonded ship with their oil and may not even realize it. For example, some are using SM rated oils and or XXw-50 oils (the XX representing lower viscosity, usually 15w or 20w).

Now I am all for using whatever you think is best. I have my favorite, and you have yours. But using an SM rated or a 50 weight oil are both very bad ideas. As much as I don't worry about voiding a warranty for the usual 'worrisome issues' discussed here, either of these will certainly, and justifiably void any oil related warranty problem you may have.

There are many very good, unbiased techincal articles by Oil Engineers out there not pushing one oil or another, giving industry wide accepted facts. And I understand that most people do not have an interest in reading these unless they are trying to cure a bout with insomnia! And I realize that I may be a 1%'er in that I do enjoy these articles.

The short and sweet of it is, if you're using an SM rated oil your clutch is slipping. You many not notice it if you ride easy and or do not pull a trailer, but none-the-less, your clutch is slipping and it will not live nearly as long as it might with the correct oil. Not to mention the heat you're creating and the junk you're dumping into your filters.

The same probably goes for you if you're using an MA rated oil (though probabaly to a lesser degree than someone using an SM rated oil). MA is the lowest of the 3 wet clutch ratings meaning that you are getting the least amount of clutch slippage protection. MA1 and MA2 are a much better bet, MA2 being the best.

Next, if you are using a 50 weight viscosity oil thinking thicker is better, you are very wrong. Thicker may be better in a low RPM engine (HD) or an engine with a lot of wear, but in our high revving, close tolerance Spyder Rotax engine you are creating the following issues.

1. Heavier oil has difficulty staying with or clinging to high rpm parts
2. Heavier oil has more difficulty getting between close tolerance parts
3. Heavier oil does not release heat (or cool) as redily as lighter oil and your engine will run hotter
4. Heavier oil causes more friction, you lose HP, fuel mileage and create more heat

Most people who would use a 50 weight oil are actually creating the very conditions in their Rotax engine that they tought they were avoiding.

Some people come away from a discussion of this kind thinking they will just stick with BRP oil and be done with it. This is certainly better than using the wrong oil.

But for those of you who want the best for your Spyder, it isn't hard to fine a superior product for about the same price. Just be aware of the few, easily descerned parameters that are required.

1. 5w-40 or 10w-40 viscosity
2. MA rated (I personally highly recommended at least MA1)
3. Don't use anything with an SM rating (which you will not find any oil both SM & MA rated)

I know this was long but if it saves just 1 Spyderlover from a nasty visit to the shop it was worth the effort.

[NancysToy]

Some comments....

First, thanks for the reminder about heavier oil causing a loss of fuel mileage. Ford dropped the oil spec on some vehicle (after engine clearance changes) to 5W-20 from 10W-30 just to meet government fuel mileage standards.

Second, a bit of clarification. MA oils could test out as either MA1 or MA2, but you never know. The main advantage to the numbered ratings is knowing which end of the scale you are on. I recommend the MA2.

Third, Mobil1 MC carries both the MA and SM ratings now, as I recall. Very confusing, but another SpyderLover whise knowledge I highly value has reviewed the specs and says they are not mutually exclusive in themselves...but the additives used to reach the SM standard may keep them from passing the MA standard.

[AbNormy]

so what viscosity is brp summer? thought it was like 20/50? who makes their oil? and if we run amsoil, are you suggested 10/40 even in extended 90+f heat?

[billybovine]

Ron I believe Scotty is correct on the JASO MA, MA1, MA2 specs. MA1 is not better then MA, it is the lower half of the MA spec and MA2 is the upper half of the spec. My understanding is that the Japanese manufactures complained that the MA spec was too broad and oils meeting the lower end of the spec did not meet their requirements.

[billybovine]

so what viscosity is brp summer? thought it was like 20/50? who makes their oil? and if we run amsoil, are you suggested 10/40 even in extended 90+f heat?

I believe BRP summer oil is a blend of regular and synthetic oil. BRP winter oil is full synthetic. It is my understanding that the winter oil can be used all year round in all conditions and is more expensive.

[oldgoat]

Excellent info.

I was a research scientist for 46 years & it is nice to see it all written down in a way we can follow.

It has annoyed me that the Mobil 1 I was using is now SM. Then again my Burgman & Silverwing scooters did not have clutches so SM was not detrimental.

Only after I read BRP's oil specs & their saying not to use SM did I look at my stash of Mobil 1 & found it all to be SM. GRRR!

[gypsy_100]

Some comments....

First, thanks for the reminder about heavier oil causing a loss of fuel mileage. Ford dropped the oil spec on some vehicle (after engine clearance changes) to 5W-20 from 10W-30 just to meet government fuel mileage standards.

Second, a bit of clarification. MA oils could test out as either MA1 or MA2, but you never know. The main advantage to the numbered ratings is knowing which end of the scale you are on. I recommend the MA2.

Third, Mobil1 MC carries both the MA and SM ratings now, as I recall. Very confusing, but another SpyderLover whise knowledge I highly value has reviewed the specs and says they are not mutually exclusive in themselves...but the additives used to reach the SM standard may keep them from passing the MA standard.

Correct. JASO took the original MA spec and divided it in half with the lower performing half being MA1 and the better performing half being MA2. So for best performance, you want MA2. You'll notice no one brags that they meet MA1. They just say MA. Why would you state that you meet the lower half of the spec? If they meet MA2, they'll let you know.

Amsoil, Royal Purple, and others meet JASO MA2 so they would be my preference. Now, Mobil 1 meets MA and SM. The trick would be to find an oil that meets MA2 and SM. Shell Advance Ultra motorcycle oil does, but is not sold in this country. Go figure. Ducati now specifies that oil in their owner's manual (I'm sure they got paid for that) but you can't get it here. Go figure, again.

[BajaRon]

Ron I believe Scotty is correct on the JASO MA, MA1, MA2 specs. MA1 is not better then MA, it is the lower half of the MA spec and MA2 is the upper half of the spec. My understanding is that the Japanese manufactures complained that the MA spec was too broad and oils meeting the lower end of the spec did not meet their requirements.

There is a great article on the MA subject here.http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV0604.pdf

I was not aware of an oil that met both the SM and MA specs since friction modifiers are used to meet the SM parameters and these will lower the oils MA capabilties. But you learn something every day.

I believe BRP summer oil is a blend of regular and synthetic oil. BRP winter oil is full synthetic. It is my understanding that the winter oil can be used all year round in all conditions and is more expensive.

There are 2 kinds of 'Full Synthetic' branded oils in the US. 1 is doctored Dino oil (additives) and the other is oil engineered at the base level without additives. These are not the same thing, though the term 'Full Synthetic' falsely suggests otherwise.

[Spyder Monkey]

And I was the ignoramus that sparked this post... Just bought my first filter change kit from Ron and let it slip I planned to use 15W50 Mobil 1. And then he spent at least 20 minutes composing a detailed explanation as to why I was making a mistake.

Thanks Ron and I look forward to the filter and Amsoil... just paid the paypal invoice.
David

[SpyderAnn01]

I am so happy that we have such smart members here who do all of the boring research so that us less brainy members can just get the bottom line. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[MarkLawson]

Thanks everyone for some great information.

[MikeinGA]

I was told that Amsoil full synthectic motorcycle oil 10W-40 weight the correct oil to use here in Ga. The BRP specs call for 5W-40 weigth. I have not seen full synthetic motorcycle oil in 5W-40 .


Mike

[ClayL]

As many of you know I probably spend too much time in Oil research. It can be like pulling teeth to get good, varifiable information and the manufactuer can be the Worst place to look for facts! But if you work at it, you can get pretty close to the truth.

You may also know I am an Amsoil fan. Used to be a Mobil 1 fan until they went to the dark side (SM rating) and abandonded us MA users.

But all of that aside. There have been some oily rumblings that do concern me. Regardless of what brand, weight, how often you change, what filters you use or where you run your level on the dip stick, oil is a very important component in your Spyder's overall health and longevity. You're got pistons, crankshaft, valve train, bearings, transmission, clutch and more all depending on the same lubricant. In some cases, if it fails for just a few seconds you could be in trouble.

These days engines are engineered to run a particular lubricant. Not brand, but properties. The manufacturer sets minimums which almost always can be improved upon, but you NEVER want to fall below those minimum qualities.

My concern is that some have abandonded ship with their oil and may not even realize it. For example, some are using SM rated oils and or XXw-50 oils (the XX representing lower viscosity, usually 15w or 20w).

Now I am all for using whatever you think is best. I have my favorite, and you have yours. But using an SM rated or a 50 weight oil are both very bad ideas. As much as I don't worry about voiding a warranty for the usual 'worrisome issues' discussed here, either of these will certainly, and justifiably void any oil related warranty problem you may have.

There are many very good, unbiased techincal articles by Oil Engineers out there not pushing one oil or another, giving industry wide accepted facts. And I understand that most people do not have an interest in reading these unless they are trying to cure a bout with insomnia! And I realize that I may be a 1%'er in that I do enjoy these articles.

The short and sweet of it is, if you're using an SM rated oil your clutch is slipping. You many not notice it if you ride easy and or do not pull a trailer, but none-the-less, your clutch is slipping and it will not live nearly as long as it might with the correct oil. Not to mention the heat you're creating and the junk you're dumping into your filters.

The same probably goes for you if you're using an MA rated oil (though probabaly to a lesser degree than someone using an SM rated oil). MA is the lowest of the 3 wet clutch ratings meaning that you are getting the least amount of clutch slippage protection. MA1 and MA2 are a much better bet, MA2 being the best.

Next, if you are using a 50 weight viscosity oil thinking thicker is better, you are very wrong. Thicker may be better in a low RPM engine (HD) or an engine with a lot of wear, but in our high revving, close tolerance Spyder Rotax engine you are creating the following issues.

1. Heavier oil has difficulty staying with or clinging to high rpm parts
2. Heavier oil has more difficulty getting between close tolerance parts
3. Heavier oil does not release heat (or cool) as redily as lighter oil and your engine will run hotter
4. Heavier oil causes more friction, you lose HP, fuel mileage and create more heat

Most people who would use a 50 weight oil are actually creating the very conditions in their Rotax engine that they tought they were avoiding.

Some people come away from a discussion of this kind thinking they will just stick with BRP oil and be done with it. This is certainly better than using the wrong oil.

But for those of you who want the best for your Spyder, it isn't hard to fine a superior product for about the same price. Just be aware of the few, easily descerned parameters that are required.

1. 5w-40 or 10w-40 viscosity
2. MA rated (I personally highly recommended at least MA1)
3. Don't use anything with an SM rating (which you will not find any oil both SM & MA rated)

I know this was long but if it saves just 1 Spyderlover from a nasty visit to the shop it was worth the effort.

Thanx for the info.........

Say Ive got some Elf Nitron oil in the garage.....it's suppose to smell like old time bean oil........maybe one of you guyz with a big fancy RT want to run this stuff......we can make that Spyder smell like an old Hodaka going down the road.........

See ya,
Clay

[BajaRon]

And I was the ignoramus that sparked this post... Just bought my first filter change kit from Ron and let it slip I planned to use 15W50 Mobil 1. And then he spent at least 20 minutes composing a detailed explanation as to why I was making a mistake.

Thanks Ron and I look forward to the filter and Amsoil... just paid the paypal invoice.
David

Hey now! I was not mentioning any names. Besides, you were just the straw, not the entire bundle. Since I sell oil and filters I think I get a lot more 'Personal' information than most. People think I have all the answers, which I do not, but I do try to steer people in the right direction with a minimum of bias (if that is possible).

Some mistakes take awhile to manifest and I just hate to see people trying to do the right thing and yet going the wrong way.

We can all learn somthing from each other. I'm just throwing in my 2 cents. Together we can make a difference. (I'll quit now because I think I'm starting to sound like some tree hugger ad!)

[BajaRon]

Thanx for the info.........

Say Ive got some Elf Nitron oil in the garage.....it's suppose to smell like old time bean oil........maybe one of you guyz with a big fancy RT want to run this stuff......we can make that Spyder smell like an old Hodaka going down the road.........

See ya,
Clay

Love the smell of Caster Bean Oil in the morning... and all day long!

[BajaRon]

I was told that Amsoil full synthectic motorcycle oil 10W-40 weight the correct oil to use here in Ga. The BRP specs call for 5W-40 weigth. I have not seen full synthetic motorcycle oil in 5W-40 .


Mike

BRP blended oil is 10w-40 (though you will not see this anywhere on the container). The most important number is the higher one. Cold start-up temperatures are where the low number is operative. At temperatures that our Spyders see, 10w is just fine.

[ClayL]

Love the smell of Caster Bean Oil in the morning... and all day long!

Ha..ha....I love the smell too.

I did run this stuff in a Sportster for awhile. If you ran it hard.....you could smell it a little. This stuff does not smell as much as the real thing!!

Clay
t

[NancysToy]

The smell of bean oil still brings a smile to my face. It stirs of memories of the race track during the Sixties, and I am transformed into Michael Hailwood for a few moments...in my mind.

[oldgoat]

The smell of bean oil still brings a smile to my face. It stirs of memories of the race track during the Sixties, and I am transformed into Michael Hailwood for a few moments...in my mind.

Ahhh, the smell of Castrol R at Silverstone in the late 50s early 60s.

[billybovine]

Maybe I can summarise what we have learned here.
1. Do not use a 20W-50 oil, designed for air cooled engines in a liquid cooled engine.
2. Do not use SM rated oil.
3. Do use oil that has a JASO MA2 rating.
4. The smell of some types of oil brings back memories of times gone by.

[Bob Denman]

Well for a guy who can barely figure out what kind of oil to use in a frying pan; I've actually learned a lot! Thanks to one and all!

[boborgera]

Remember in the olden days all manufacturers would use Break in oil dyed green.
That got everyone back for the first service on time, For an oil and lube job.

[BajaRon]

Maybe I can summarise what we have learned here.
1. Do not use a 20W-50 oil, designed for air cooled engines in a liquid cooled engine.
2. Do not use SM rated oil.
3. Do use oil that has a JASO MA2 rating.
4. The smell of some types of oil brings back memories of times gone by.

Now why couldn't I have said it this way?

[boborgera]

Now why couldn't I have said it this way?

Simplicity isn't your Forte, But that's a good thing,

[billybovine]

Now why couldn't I have said it this way?

You said it with added color.

Just be glad nobody brought up the new SN rating. I guess I did.