Oil level, what the heck!

[WaltH]

A rough rule of thumb is that the distance between the bottom of the dip stick and the full mark is about 1/2 quart. If the oil level is at the bottom of the dip stick when the engine is cold, it will be 1/2 of the way to the full mark when the engine is hot.

[bmwlarry]

Wouldn't It make sense for the BRP manual to simply give the full - cold level?

[NancysToy]

Wouldn't It make sense for the BRP manual to simply give the full - cold level?

No, because it varies depoending on ambient temperatures. That's why you check at normal engine (oil) operating temperatures...that is a pretty repeatable thing. Did you eve look in the sight glass of your BMW? at 70 the oil may be at the center, at operating temp iit will fill the glass, and at 32 you won't even see any oil.

[thehawk]

Sounds like the OP's dealer is clueless....... but sounds like it's under control now.

Anyone remember hearing about checking the oil level with the Spyder running?

Seems to me I heard about this recently........

Yep. Somebody said that their tech in the service department did it that way. Once I read that I began doing it also. Empirically, I determined (and reported on the thread) that there is about 1/8" difference on the dipstick between running and not-running ... and I'm satisfied that as long as it's between the marks when it's hot, it's probably OK. I'm with Scotty ... the issue is that it has to be at operating temperature ... and for me that means after a ryde ... not just started and run for a few minutes. But that's my personal bias.

I hated sight glasses when I first ran into them ... but I learned to adapt. Don't like this much better but I guess I'll learn.

Just my .02 ... and your mileage may vary.

thehawk

[Shaku]

Seems like every time I go bye the shop, they've changed their minds about which BRP oil to use. The blend or the pure synth? I am just aking wild guesses as to what the dipstick says as it is so garbled up (foam?) I can't tell where the level is. I have just been trying to get the level on the stick... somewhere. Not very precise, I know, but it is just as hard to read turned off as it is idling. I'm with the folks that want the cold level listed. Every engine I've owned before this one was checked when cold. I understand the temp. variation issue, but I have monitored over 100 engines over the past 50 years and the temp differences have never been a problem. Bring on the cold dipstick!

[donec]

Seems like every time I go bye the shop, they've changed their minds about which BRP oil to use. The blend or the pure synth? I am just aking wild guesses as to what the dipstick says as it is so garbled up (foam?) I can't tell where the level is. I have just been trying to get the level on the stick... somewhere. Not very precise, I know, but it is just as hard to read turned off as it is idling. I'm with the folks that want the cold level listed. Every engine I've owned before this one was checked when cold. I understand the temp. variation issue, but I have monitored over 100 engines over the past 50 years and the temp differences have never been a problem. Bring on the cold dipstick!

I don't know if this is the case with synthetic oils but long time ago when you had foam in the oil it said the oil was contaminated with water. Anyone else know more about this?

[NancysToy]

I don't know if this is the case with synthetic oils but long time ago when you had foam in the oil it said the oil was contaminated with water. Anyone else know more about this?

All oils tend to foam with a dry sump system. Some are better or worse than others. The scavenging pump works regardless or whether there is oil gathered in the sump, so sometimes pumps some air. This foam is lighter than the foam caused by water in the oil, and dissipates much more quickly.

[NancysToy]

It seems to me that the level of oil on the stick is going to vary with how hot the oil is[warm vs. hot] if you have warmed the transmission, do you just run at idle and then check? Best advise would be after changing both oil and filter-filters and putting in the exact amount of oil the manual indicates, then you use the same procedure to check oil level every time, be consistent. I always run mine a few miles to warm the transmission and then check. If I ran it longer and the oil was really hot I'm sure I would get a different reading on the stick.

Once your engine reaches full operating temperature for the oil, the temperature actually remains quite constant. The mass of the engine, and the presence of the oil cooler, combined with a water-cooled engine, make the oil temperature less variable than you think.

[WARWAGON]

Okay, I check the oil after running it for 30 sec. Remove dipstick has oil on it. wipe off put dipstick back in, remove to check level and no oil shows. Per instruction should show level correct.

[happyspyder2039]

I'm pretty sure it's 4.4 for the SE but I would have to look it up.

[NancysToy]

Okay, I check the oil after running it for 30 sec. Remove dipstick has oil on it. wipe off put dipstick back in, remove to check level and no oil shows. Per instruction should show level correct.

First, is the Spyder at full operating temperature, like after a ride? You can't check the oil cold, or just run the engine until the water temperature gauge comes up. Second, are you screwing in the dipstick when it is reinserted? It has to be screwed in on the Spyder. If the answer to both is yes, your oil is low. Add a little at a time and recheck until it is seen on the stick.

[mob133]

as was stated earlier some oil may have still been in the motor , also check your oil containers are they quart or liter this might account for another couple ounces

[BajaRon]

Seems like every time I go bye the shop, they've changed their minds about which BRP oil to use. The blend or the pure synth? I am just aking wild guesses as to what the dipstick says as it is so garbled up (foam?) I can't tell where the level is. I have just been trying to get the level on the stick... somewhere. Not very precise, I know, but it is just as hard to read turned off as it is idling. I'm with the folks that want the cold level listed. Every engine I've owned before this one was checked when cold. I understand the temp. variation issue, but I have monitored over 100 engines over the past 50 years and the temp differences have never been a problem. Bring on the cold dipstick!

Like Scotty said, all oil will foam some, especially in a dry sump system like the Spyder has. But you don't have to use oil that foams so much you can't check the level. I use Amsoil and I can check it as soon as I shut the engine down and there is virtually no foaming.

I'm sure there are other oils that handle foaming better as well.

[WARWAGON]

First, is the Spyder at full operating temperature, like after a ride? You can't check the oil cold, or just run the engine until the water temperature gauge comes up. Second, are you screwing in the dipstick when it is reinserted? It has to be screwed in on the Spyder. If the answer to both is yes, your oil is low. Add a little at a time and recheck until it is seen on the stick.

Yes to all your questions. So I am correct the level should show up after reinsertion of dipstick? Just don't want to overfill from what I've been reading.

[NancysToy]

Yes to all your questions. So I am correct the level should show up after reinsertion of dipstick? Just don't want to overfill from what I've been reading.

Yes, if the dipstick was reinserted and scerewed in, the oil should show if the engine is at full operating temperature. Don't panic, however, it could be only a smidgen low, and just off the stick. Add it in small increments, until you get the hang of how much does what.

[CurtG]

Two questions:

1) Where does the oil go between the engine being hot after a ride and cold after sitting overnight? The difference cant just be the oil temp can it? I know it expands with heating but if we're talking from the bottom of the dipstick to the full mark being a pint that's a lot of expansion.

2) How long do you have to check the level from shutting down after a ride until you wont get a good reading?

Thanks.

Ride safe,

[boborgera]

Two questions:

1) Where does the oil go between the engine being hot after a ride and cold after sitting overnight? The difference cant just be the oil temp can it? I know it expands with heating but if we're talking from the bottom of the dipstick to the full mark being a pint that's a lot of expansion.

2) How long do you have to check the level from shutting down after a ride until you wont get a good reading?

Thanks.

Ride safe,

1] It goes from the oil tank back into the crankcase. 2] About a minute, Provided you let the engine idle for a minute before you shut it down...

[CurtG]

I guess I may leave it idling while I get the panel off. The shut down and read the level.

Thanks.

Ride safe,

[NancysToy]

Two questions:

1) Where does the oil go between the engine being hot after a ride and cold after sitting overnight? The difference cant just be the oil temp can it? I know it expands with heating but if we're talking from the bottom of the dipstick to the full mark being a pint that's a lot of expansion.

2) How long do you have to check the level from shutting down after a ride until you wont get a good reading?

Thanks.

Ride safe,

1) The oil can drain back into the crankcase sump, depending on the position of the oil pump gears and how tightly the check mechanism (anti-sumping mechanism) holds. Ideally, no oil drains back, but some always does, especially with the "slipperier" synthetic oils. There is also considerably volume change in the vertically oriented tank, which does change the level. The idea of checking hot is that the hot temperature is fairly constant in a system with an oil cooler.

2) I'd check within a minute or two of last running the engine (in terms of having no oil drained back to the sump). In terms of temperature, any time withing 10-15 mminutes of a ride should be fine...maybe more in warm weather. Just remember to start the engine for at least 30 seconds to evacuate the sump before you check the level, if you don't cjheck immediately. The more consistent your procedure, the more comperable your readings will be.

[zbunker]

Ah 'The Old Oil Checking' debate continues. (Who sez that there ain't no such thing as perpetual motion?) Oh well, I might as well toss in my two cents.
My concern on checking the oil level after running the engine until operating temperature is reached is that that would a heck of a time to find out there was little or no oil in the engine
Now I realize there are a lot of folks out there that will be giving me the "Fish Eye" for what I'm about to say, but I think this is a reasonable alternative to the procedure called for.
I started out by checking the oil the "correct way" and got a full reading.
The next day (sitting over night), I checked the oil on the cold engine using a dip stick that is about 15 inches long. I sent the stick in until I hit the bottom of the tank, and measured the oil on the stick. It measured 6 1/2 inches.
With a measurement in that range I feel comfortable with the amount of oil in the engine. As it has been pointed out in the thread, the ambient temperature can have an effect on the oil level, ( I'm in Fla.) but I think as long as I'm a quarter of an inch either side of 6 1/2 inches I'm good.

[M&Ms_Spyder]

10-roger that zbunker.

I was spoofed pretty quickly by the oil system on our 2013(only a month old) and the "art" that must be mastered to check the oil. And I am completely "annoyed", for lack of a better term, with the "absence of science", accuracy and consistency one can expect with "oil level shown on the stick" - EVEN if you follow the SAME procedure every time you check the oil level.

I have experienced the oil level on the dip stick showing 1/2 way between add & full, a full 24 hrs or more after parking spydy in the garage. Then the next time I checked it "cold", after sitting a day or two, NO OIL touching the stick at all - bone dry on the stick!! So the oil is going somewhere sometimes and at other times, it is remaining in the reservoir - since it varies so wildly when checking it cold. Apparently sometimes the oil runs back into the engine and sometimes it doesn't.

The first time I did a cold check, and it wasn't touching the stick, I had that Oh-No sinking feeling! How could this be? I had just checked last ride and it was OK. So... being fully aware of this "check it when hot" procedure, which is posted on a sticker right by the dipstick... I added just enough oil so that it barely touched the tip of stick. Then we went on our ride, and when we returned, I followed the "hot check" procedure. Sure enough... showed over the full mark a ways. So.. right then and there, I drained enough out of the tank to where it read "full" on the stick.

However, I must say, that I, like other posters here, believe that being able to check the oil "BEFORE" you take off on a ride is the best time to find out if you're low - not After you ride as the BRP procedure recommends.

Anyway, I think I will try your procedure and see if I can establish a "cold" point of reference in relation to getting a "full" reading after checking it hot, after a ride, after letting it idle for a couple of minutes, shutting it off, immediately take off panel, check level. However, based on "cold" readings I've taken before, even using a stick that will reach the bottom of the reservoir... I suspect it is probable to get wildly varying cold readings because sometimes the oil remains in the reservoir, and sometimes it doesn't.

[NancysToy]

.....
I have experienced the oil level on the dip stick showing 1/2 way between add & full, a full 24 hrs or more after parking spydy in the garage. Then the next time I checked it "cold", after sitting a day or two, NO OIL touching the stick at all - bone dry on the stick!! So the oil is going somewhere sometimes and at other times, it is remaining in the reservoir - since it varies so wildly when checking it cold. Apparently sometimes the oil runs back into the engine and sometimes it doesn't. .....

That is absolutely correct. It depends mostly on where the gears in the oil pump stop when you shut it off. The condition of the oil pump, the type of oil used, and the condition of the anti-sumping valve, as well as the ambient temperatures can also affect the flow-back. Flow-back is the reason the engine must be started and run for at least 30 seconds to evacuate the sump before you stop it and check the oil. Having a fairly constant oil temperature, regardless of ambient temperatures, is why the engine should be at full operating temperature.

[zbunker]

10-roger that zbunker.

I was spoofed pretty quickly by the oil system on our 2013(only a month old) and the "art" that must be mastered to check the oil. And I am completely "annoyed", for lack of a better term, with the "absence of science", accuracy and consistency one can expect with "oil level shown on the stick" - EVEN if you follow the SAME procedure every time you check the oil level.

I have experienced the oil level on the dip stick showing 1/2 way between add & full, a full 24 hrs or more after parking spydy in the garage. Then the next time I checked it "cold", after sitting a day or two, NO OIL touching the stick at all - bone dry on the stick!! So the oil is going somewhere sometimes and at other times, it is remaining in the reservoir - since it varies so wildly when checking it cold. Apparently sometimes the oil runs back into the engine and sometimes it doesn't.

The first time I did a cold check, and it wasn't touching the stick, I had that Oh-No sinking feeling! How could this be? I had just checked last ride and it was OK. So... being fully aware of this "check it when hot" procedure, which is posted on a sticker right by the dipstick... I added just enough oil so that it barely touched the tip of stick. Then we went on our ride, and when we returned, I followed the "hot check" procedure. Sure enough... showed over the full mark a ways. So.. right then and there, I drained enough out of the tank to where it read "full" on the stick.

However, I must say, that I, like other posters here, believe that being able to check the oil "BEFORE" you take off on a ride is the best time to find out if you're low - not After you ride as the BRP procedure recommends.

Anyway, I think I will try your procedure and see if I can establish a "cold" point of reference in relation to getting a "full" reading after checking it hot, after a ride, after letting it idle for a couple of minutes, shutting it off, immediately take off panel, check level. However, based on "cold" readings I've taken before, even using a stick that will reach the bottom of the reservoir... I suspect it is probable to get wildly varying cold readings because sometimes the oil remains in the reservoir, and sometimes it doesn't.

Glad to hear you are going to try taking cold readings.
(keep me honest . Thought I was a just a voice crying in the dark)
You mentioned about getting readings that varied so much. That I can't answer. Perhaps temperature plays a factor. I'm in Florida, and it's either hot and dry or hot and wet What I have found that in taking readings (with a long stick) on a cold engine that has sat overnight, comes up in the 6 1/2 inch neighborhood. (which is full measuring the "correct" way) Now if I get a reading somewhere in the five inch or below, then it would be time for a reading done the "correct" way. But at any rate, one thing this method proves is that you would "know" if there is enough oil to safely operate the engine. Ron

[Desert Spyder]

So getting back to the Dudley method and the last posts stating 6-1/2 in from the bottom, how high from the bottom of the reservoir is the dip stick? After riding for hours in 100+ temps the last thing I want to do is tell my wife not now, I need to check my dipstick. Somebody slap me.

Freaking Spyders. We need a MS degree to own them.

[zbunker]

So getting back to the Dudley method and the last posts stating 6-1/2 in from the bottom, how high from the bottom of the reservoir is the dip stick? After riding for hours in 100+ temps the last thing I want to do is tell my wife not now, I need to check my dipstick. Somebody slap me.

Freaking Spyders. We need a MS degree to own them.

I agree. You should never keep your lady waiting. (Another advantage to this method) As a matter of fact from the bottom of my reservoir tank to the top thread is 10 1/2 inches. The "REAL" dip stick from the top of the 'O' ring measures 4 inches. It appears that when taking a cold reading, the oil level will be just under the "REAL" stick.

Today, about 5 hours after a ride I measured 7 inches on the "BIG" stick and about 1/2 full on the "REAL" stick.

All I am saying here is that if you get a cold engine oil reading somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 1/2 inches, and then go out and do 100 MPH, one of you lesser concerns will be if you have an adequate amount of oil.