BUDS won't listen...

[bullant12]

My RT has been in the dealer for 3 weeks now. I have been very patient with this because I know how electrical issues can be. Here is the situation:

While on the way to Destin, my wife Leira told me that my trailer lights stopped working. She said it would show brake lights, but the signal and running lights were not working. I though either a bad connection or a fuse, so we continued our journey. Once we got into Destin and unloaded our things in the condo, we were heading out to buy groceries. This is were we then discovered that the reverse was not working. Although I was upset, at least the was still running and no codes showed, so we pushed Gray out and went our way, figuring that I could look in good ol' Spyderlovers for a solution. But before heading to SL, thanks to the Service Manual (downloaded on my iPad), I saw that the trailer lights and reverse actuator were on the same fuse, so I thought "simple fix". Blown fuse, of course... so when I proceeded to change it, it would spark and blow on the spot. Even went to pull the relay to make sure no power was going thru while inserting the fuse, but did not work. I called Lamont (thanks!!!) and pretty much explained that other have had the same issue: Trailer Module goes bad and it disables reverse. I almost thought of going to a Destin dealer but was afraid of taking too long (and that no Spyderlover in the area gave me an answer if it was a recommened dealer), so I decided to just push Gray with her trailer (Leira would be mocking me with this... she'd pull up next to me and then reverse) until I got back home and let my particular dealer take care of it.

So I get back home with no major issues (tip light came off several times), and take Gray to the dealer for the issue. I explained when I turned it in that the trailer module was a suspect. Week one, no word... called dealer: said they are replacing reverse actuator because that it what BUDS is saying. Week two, no word... called dealer: said they were replacing reverse button because that is what BUDS is saying. Week 2 few days later I called: part they ordered was wrong; they ordered for an SE-5 mine was a SM-5. Week 3 (today), no word... I called... guess... BUDS saying to replace TRAILER MODULE!!!

Here is my rant: I like my dealer... Mom & Pop shop, do pretty much anything for their customer (bought them 2 s for a reason). I understand they have to follow BRP procedure as to what BUDS is saying, but I think BRP should have alerted the dealer that other issues could be at place and order the other parts (reverse actuator, reverse button and trailer module). I mean... 3 weeks for an electrical issue?!?!?!

Your thoughts...

[NancysToy]

Sorry to hear that you have one of those techs with blinders. Too many of them these days don't have any mechanical or electrical savvy, or an troubleshooting skills of their own. This issue is well-known, and pretty easy to diagnose. A call to BRP dealer tech support would have also probably gotten them an answer sooner. You might have actually been better off getting it repaired on the road, in this instance. BUDS can only go so far...it is the knowledge and skill of the tech that does the most. Let's hope that your tech learned from the experience.

[Jeriatric]

Like they say - a computer will only tell you what you told it to tell you. Scotty nailed it when he mentioned trouble shooting skills.....sometimes desire to try supersedes that.

[Firefly]

Ahhh-- hogwash-- I don't buy for a minute they HAVE to follow whatever BUDS says. If you told them to replace the trailer module because it was bad -- they should have listened and DONE IT.

Nothing should take 3 freaking weeks in the shop short of an engine rebuild!

[bullant12]

Sorry to hear that you have one of those techs with blinders. Too many of them these days don't have any mechanical or electrical savvy, or an troubleshooting skills of their own. This issue is well-known, and pretty easy to diagnose. A call to BRP dealer tech support would have also probably gotten them an answer sooner. You might have actually been better off getting it repaired on the road, in this instance. BUDS can only go so far...it is the knowledge and skill of the tech that does the most. Let's hope that your tech learned from the experience.

with you 100% Scotty. If I were in a bigger area such as Orlando, St. Louis or East TN, I'm sure the issue would have been fixed quicker. However, the tech turnaround for my dealer has been a problem... I think they are on their 3rd certified tech (one is on Military deployment, and the second one arrested), and the Service Manager finally went to the training recently (as I saw posted on their wall). What bothers me is that the owner is losing faith (and me losing it with the dealership itself) with BRP because of their marketing strategies. So I'll wait and see

[bullant12]

Ahhh-- hogwash-- I don't buy for a minute they HAVE to follow whatever BUDS says. If you told them to replace the trailer module because it was bad -- they should have listened and DONE IT.

Nothing should take 3 freaking weeks in the shop short of an engine rebuild!

Or a clutch rebuild...

I totally agree, Dan. But knowing the dealer's owner, he did this for 2 reasons 1) If he bought the part and replaced it without consulting BRP, it would be out of warranty because the dealer did not hook the to BUDS as BRP would mandate, and 2) As Scotty stated, the techs were blindsided... I'm sure they went on saying things behind my back such as "what does he know?" to "What does the trailer module have to do with the reverse?" Therefore my rant...

[pellcitypete]

I know how you feel I had a ton of problems with mt 2011-RT-SM5. I got all p*~~ed off an dogged BRP bad but I didn't give up nor did BRP and when I was almost ready to give up and try to get mine replaced they finaly got it fixed I love L'ill Red and won't trade her for anything so hang in there they(BRP) want it fixed as bad as you do. take it from someone who's been there. keep us up to date on what's happing! Pete

[Firefly]

Or a clutch rebuild...

I totally agree, Dan. But knowing the dealer's owner, he did this for 2 reasons 1) If he bought the part and replaced it without consulting BRP, it would be out of warranty because the dealer did not hook the to BUDS as BRP would mandate, and 2) As Scotty stated, the techs were blindsided... I'm sure they went on saying things behind my back such as "what does he know?" to "What does the trailer module have to do with the reverse?" Therefore my rant...

Sorry for your troubles. I've been fortunate not to have had to really take my spyder(s) in to the shop for much at all. I know they originally were reluctant to believe things I told them were wrong because I read them 'on the internets' . Well, I think some of them have come around and know that if someone mentions they saw it on Spyderlovers--- they better pay attention.

If I owned a shop... it would be mandatory for my techs to read this forum and keep an eye on what people are having problems with and the various fixes.

One time I remember bringing in printouts from this site... talking directly to the tech and telling him what needed to be done. They learned pretty quick to listen to me and just do it.

Hope you get her back SOON!!!

But what's to stop another trailer module from blowing and doing this all over again??

[Bob Denman]

Sometimes folks get so good at just reading from a computer screen or a manual that they forget to use what's keeping their ears on the outside of their heads!
Good Luck and I hope that they can get you back up and running P.D.Q.!

[Firefly]

Or a clutch rebuild...

I totally agree, Dan. But knowing the dealer's owner, he did this for 2 reasons 1) If he bought the part and replaced it without consulting BRP, it would be out of warranty because the dealer did not hook the to BUDS as BRP would mandate, and 2) As Scotty stated, the techs were blindsided... I'm sure they went on saying things behind my back such as "what does he know?" to "What does the trailer module have to do with the reverse?" Therefore my rant...

Seth's clutch was rebuilt in hours after blowing it in Cuba........

[pellcitypete]

Or a clutch rebuild...

I totally agree, Dan. But knowing the dealer's owner, he did this for 2 reasons 1) If he bought the part and replaced it without consulting BRP, it would be out of warranty because the dealer did not hook the to BUDS as BRP would mandate, and 2) As Scotty stated, the techs were blindsided... I'm sure they went on saying things behind my back such as "what does he know?" to "What does the trailer module have to do with the reverse?" Therefore my rant...

These bikes are so sophisticated that they have no way to check the trailer module so they have to rely on buds. I can tell you that brp is working with your dealer to get your problem fixed because they'er having to many bad post(I was the worst)on here. ask Lamont he knows more than anybody on here. goodluck and don't give up Pete

[bullant12]

I know how you feel I had a ton of problems with mt 2011-RT-SM5. I got all p*~~ed off an dogged BRP bad but I didn't give up nor did BRP and when I was almost ready to give up and try to get mine replaced they finaly got it fixed I love L'ill Red and won't trade her for anything so hang in there they(BRP) want it fixed as bad as you do. take it from someone who's been there. keep us up to date on what's happing! Pete

You have come a long way, Pete. I've had mine since 2010 and this is the 3rd mayor issue. 1st one was a bad clutch (3 weeks and got BRP to help), 2nd was a torn airbag (replaced in 3 days), and this. So far 10,000 + miles and I love both mine and my wife (zero issues so far).

Sorry for your troubles. I've been fortunate not to have had to really take my spyder(s) in to the shop for much at all. I know they originally were reluctant to believe things I told them were wrong because I read them 'on the internets' . Well, I think some of them have come around and know that if someone mentions they saw it on Spyderlovers--- they better pay attention.

If I owned a shop... it would be mandatory for my techs to read this forum and keep an eye on what people are having problems with and the various fixes.

One time I remember bringing in printouts from this site... talking directly to the tech and telling him what needed to be done. They learned pretty quick to listen to me and just do it.

Hope you get her back SOON!!!

But what's to stop another trailer module from blowing and doing this all over again??

with the mandatory SL reading and your question on another bad trailer module...

Seth's clutch was rebuilt in hours after blowing it in Cuba........

Mine was rebuilt in 2 days... it just took BRP 2 weeks, 5 days to approve the fix and send the parts!

[bullant12]

These bikes are so sophisticated that they have no way to check the trailer module so they have to rely on buds. I can tell you that brp is working with your dealer to get your problem fixed because they'er having to many bad post(I was the worst)on here. ask Lamont he knows more than anybody on here. goodluck and don't give up Pete

You are a fine example of coming a long way. I've heard the stories... But you sir have been one of the most patient one's!

[NancysToy]

BUDS can't tell that the trailer module is bad because a bad one blows fuse F7. That circuit is then dead, and couldn't be "read" if you tried. Because the reverse actuator is also on that circuit, and because BUDS does not "see" the reverse actuator, BUDS thinks the actuator has failed. Disconnecting the trailer, then replacing the blown fuse would let BUDS see the actuator...but probably not a module fault even if it was programmed to read one, which I don't think it is. If the techs had done their jobs properly, they would have disconnected the trailer, replaced the fuse, and then seen no problems on the circuit via BUDS. I suspect they could also have tested the trailer module with a multimeter and seen the short. They then should have used these symptoms to further diagnose the failure, or discuss with BRP. BRP would have supported their work and warranty repair, given the lack of any concrete BUDS diagnosis. Sometimes the "high tech" approach doesn't give the answers. In those cases experience, knowledge of the product, and some common sense can help a good tech pinpoint the cause. This is not a failure on BRP's part, just on that of the wet-behind-the-ears tech. Not throwing rocks...some problems are beyond the understanding of most beginners. I'm afraid circumstance don't always permit the best techs to be available at all dealerships at all times. It is sad, but it is the practical truth.

[ARtraveler]

Very good explanation Scotty.

[SpyderAnn01]

I had the exact same problem - twice. First time I took just the Spyder in for repair and they replaced the trailer module. I then took trailer in to have the wiring harness replaced on it because the pins that hold it in place had broken off and there was no way to secure it to the Spyder. Brought it home and all was well. Hooked it up again to use it and everything was fine on initial ride. Stopped and when I turned it back on same problem no reverse no trailer lights. Took both the trailer and Spyder to dealer and they replaced the trailer module on the Spyder again. Took Spyder and trailer to Durango and have had no problems.


The big difference for me is that my dealer had the parts for the Spyder in stock. They did have to order the harness for the trailer. First trip to dealer 4 days total and the second trip was only 3.


One note the first time this happened the fuse had blown but when we replaced the fuse it did not blow again. The second time the fuse would keep blowing like yours did as it was being replaced.

2010 RTS-SM5 and 2010 RT622

[bullant12]

BUDS can't tell that the trailer module is bad because a bad one blows fuse F7. That circuit is then dead, and couldn't be "read" if you tried. Because the reverse actuator is also on that circuit, and because BUDS does not "see" the reverse actuator, BUDS thinks the actuator has failed. Disconnecting the trailer, then replacing the blown fuse would let BUDS see the actuator...but probably not a module fault even if it was programmed to read one, which I don't think it is. If the techs had done their jobs properly, they would have disconnected the trailer, replaced the fuse, and then seen no problems on the circuit via BUDS. I suspect they could also have tested the trailer module with a multimeter and seen the short. They then should have used these symptoms to further diagnose the failure, or discuss with BRP. BRP would have supported their work and warranty repair, given the lack of any concrete BUDS diagnosis. Sometimes the "high tech" approach doesn't give the answers. In those cases experience, knowledge of the product, and some common sense can help a good tech pinpoint the cause. This is not a failure on BRP's part, just on that of the wet-behind-the-ears tech. Not throwing rocks...some problems are beyond the understanding of most beginners. I'm afraid circumstance don't always permit the best techs to be available at all dealerships at all times. It is sad, but it is the practical truth.

Even with the trailer removed (and I did not take the trailer to the dealer, since I knew it had nothing to do with it), it would blow the F7 fuse. So how would BUDS see that there was a bad actuator, which was the tech's first diagnostic? And taking what Firefly said but with your reference, they could have tested the trailer module with a multimeter to see a short (should have done that myself to support my finding...).

[pellcitypete]

BUDS can't tell that the trailer module is bad because a bad one blows fuse F7. That circuit is then dead, and couldn't be "read" if you tried. Because the reverse actuator is also on that circuit, and because BUDS does not "see" the reverse actuator, BUDS thinks the actuator has failed. Disconnecting the trailer, then replacing the blown fuse would let BUDS see the actuator...but probably not a module fault even if it was programmed to read one, which I don't think it is. If the techs had done their jobs properly, they would have disconnected the trailer, replaced the fuse, and then seen no problems on the circuit via BUDS. I suspect they could also have tested the trailer module with a multimeter and seen the short. They then should have used these symptoms to further diagnose the failure, or discuss with BRP. BRP would have supported their work and warranty repair, given the lack of any concrete BUDS diagnosis. Sometimes the "high tech" approach doesn't give the answers. In those cases experience, knowledge of the product, and some common sense can help a good tech pinpoint the cause. This is not a failure on BRP's part, just on that of the wet-behind-the-ears tech. Not throwing rocks...some problems are beyond the understanding of most beginners. I'm afraid circumstance don't always permit the best techs to be available at all dealerships at all times. It is sad, but it is the practical truth.

you are correct and I would have to say you could teach the tecks a lot.This is what the store manager at the dealer where i got my spyder from(and fixed) he told me that the serv teck would download the buds and send them to brp. BRP would look at the reports and then call the dealer an tell them what to replace. that sounded like BRP doesn't trust the dealers tecks. To me they need less tecks an more machicts. pet

[bullant12]

The big difference for me is that my dealer had the parts for the Spyder in stock. They did have to order the harness for the trailer. First trip to dealer 4 days total and the second trip was only 3.

When I worked as a Service Manager for a mailing machine company, my boss (the owner) told me "always keep parts in stock... pretty much keep at least one part available in which you can build a separate machine with them." I wish most dealers could follow that...

[NancysToy]

Even with the trailer removed (and I did not take the trailer to the dealer, since I knew it had nothing to do with it), it would blow the F7 fuse. So how would BUDS see that there was a bad actuator, which was the tech's first diagnostic? And taking what Firefly said but with your reference, they could have tested the trailer module with a multimeter to see a short (should have done that myself to support my finding...).

With the fuse blown, BUDS cannot "see" the reverse actuator, so it assumes it is faulty. The trailer module is not equipped on a stock machine, so that would not likely be programmed into BUDS. Being electrical instead of electronic, BUDS couldn't differentiate between them anyway...although it might be able to test either. If the fuse blows repeatedly, even with the trailer disconnected, the next troubleshooting step is to disconnect the trailer module and try again. If that does not keep the fuses from blowing, the reverse actuator is probably faulty. If the fuse then holds and reverse works, the trailer module is faulty. Troubleshooting 101.

[bullant12]

With the fuse blown, BUDS cannot "see" the reverse actuator, so it assumes it is faulty. The trailer module is not equipped on a stock machine, so that would not likely be programmed into BUDS. Being electrical instead of electronic, BUDS couldn't differentiate between them anyway...although it might be able to test either. If the fuse blows repeatedly, even with the trailer disconnected, the next troubleshooting step is to disconnect the trailer module and try again. If that does not keep the fuses from blowing, the reverse actuator is probably faulty. If the fuse then holds and reverse works, the trailer module is faulty. Troubleshooting 101.

I know... wish the techs at the dealer knew that!!!

[texasride]

When I worked as a Service Manager for a mailing machine company, my boss (the owner) told me "always keep parts in stock... pretty much keep at least one part available in which you can build a separate machine with them." I wish most dealers could follow that...

one part for each bike that a dealer would sell I can't imagine the size of,the parts dept,would be. How maney parts would it take to build a spyder not practical to me

[zrc]

When I worked as a Service Manager for a mailing machine company, my boss (the owner) told me "always keep parts in stock... pretty much keep at least one part available in which you can build a separate machine with them." I wish most dealers could follow that...

The way the US government (IRS) requires little business to report inventory and what not force them to take it on the chin in this manner, so less parts inventory is the answer, and the customers suffer.

[Jeriatric]

A Trouble Shooting Guide When BUD's cannot readily identify a problem

The information contained within this manual is a compilation of information gathered over these last years that should help technicians troubleshoot problems that are outside the scope of BUDS.


BRP Roadster
Edition 1

[bluestratos]

Get used to it is all I can say you will likely be in the shop may times with other problems. I get an average of 2000 miles to the breakdown, lol. Hopefully the new software upgrade will at least preven one from being stranded if the dash lights up.