@$@%#%^@ Limp Mode!

[Bob Denman]

You saw it...
I don't know what it does to solve a problem; other than perhaps sell coffee!

[Flight Risk]

(2011 RTS SE5) I got my first Limp Mode last weekend, over 150 miles from home. I had to slam on my brakes to avoid an accident. Limp Mode. Turnoff key, walk away for a while, bike fires up. Honestly, the limp mode wouldn't give you enough time to get out of the way on the highway, no way.

Hour later it throws DPS code and starts the stopping process. Again, turn off key, walk away for a while, bike fires up.

150 miles of wondering if yet another bike stopping code was going to be thrown. Goes to dealership tomorrow.

I love my bike, just hate the problems.

[Rotaxer]

$300.00 WOW oil sending unit cost me $13.49 in fact cost more for shipping than the switch. 2010 were known to have bad oil switches. Here is a link to my experience.



http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...775#post596775

[Spydeejane]

WM - at least you're probably somewhere where you can ride at 30 mph to get home…. Limp mode doesn't kill the bike, just limits the speed to 30ish - having it happen at 70+ while driving a SE, should give the BRP lawyers nightmares… at least with the SM, you can pull in the clutch. This will nail one of us someday.

Been there, done that, & have the "T" shirt…..

We were told that there was a computer code upgrade that changed the limp mode speed to like 60. Anyone know anything about that?

[Jeriatric]

We were told that there was a computer code upgrade that changed the limp mode speed to like 60. Anyone know anything about that?

Two types of engine limitations are now available:

1. Speed limitation.
- If unit speed is above 50mph, speed will be limited to 68mph, with no rpm limitation.
- If the unit speed drops below 50mph, the rpm limitation will take over as described below.

2. RPM limitation.
- If limp home appears below 50mph rpm will be limited to 4400rpm for each gear 1-4, 4200 rpm for 5th gear. This give the unit a max speed of 56mph.

[fjrlover]

If they are going to force a limp mode on us, emergency flashers should kick on automatically, and there should be a countdown to when the rpms/mph get limited so you have time to get out of harms way. This warning and countdown should appear flashing on the display, as well as an audible alarm through the speakers if so equipped. 30 seconds or so should be sufficient and shouldn't do any major harm to the engine. And if it does... Small price to pay for not getting splattered by a semi truck.

That is a great idea, a little time to get pulled over or out of highway traffic could make all the difference.

[fjrlover]

You saw it...
I don't know what it does to solve a problem; other than perhaps sell coffee!

Did Starbucks install this computer system ????

[fjrlover]

Two types of engine limitations are now available:

1. Speed limitation.
- If unit speed is above 50mph, speed will be limited to 68mph, with no rpm limitation.
- If the unit speed drops below 50mph, the rpm limitation will take over as described below.

2. RPM limitation.
- If limp home appears below 50mph rpm will be limited to 4400rpm for each gear 1-4, 4200 rpm for 5th gear. This give the unit a max speed of 56mph.

How can i tell if these upgrades have been installed ?
THKS

[reverendg]

Here's the deal. It's not easy to design a stable three wheeled vehicle. The Spyder's design requires the use of a computer controlled system to give it enough virtual inherent stability to be considered safe enough to use by a typical rider. Unlike most stability systems found on four wheeled vehicles where the VSS is considered only an enhancement, the Spyder's VSS is considered essential. The proof of this lies in the the fact that unlike most typical vehicle stability systems the Spyder's VSS cannot be switched off.

BRP had to meet a realistic price point for this vehicle and they examined the need and cost of each and every component. So the entire VSS system had to be relatively low cost. Unlike say a fighter jet or even a Ferrari, there was no room in the budget for expensive, ultra-reliable, high performance components or multiple redundant systems. The VSS had to be inexpensive, each and every component; the computer, the memory, the sensors, the wiring, everything. So your nanny's a pauper, she wears cheap clothes and is missing a few teeth. The software design could then in turn use only what minimal processing power, memory, and the few low cost sensors that were financially practical. Please don't fault BRP for this, quite the contrary. Only truly great engineering can bring you something complex for an affordable price. Overall they did an incredible job, but of course there had to be compromises and every design has its flaws.

So as a system designer what do you do when your low cost, limited functionality, zero redundancy, but highly essential stability system is compromised or even apparently compromised? You go into limp mode that's what you do, and you go into it quick. You can't let the rider who is used to the regular level of stability continue on as normal. If he takes a corner at speed with the VSS off line and the Spyder wipes out BRP could be held liable. You also want him to get the bike to the dealer asap so you make limp mode something he can't possibly live with by limiting the speed severely, perhaps more so than really needed for safety.

BRP is aware of the problems with limp mode and you can bet it's been a topic of discussion at internal meetings. I can hear the engineers offering alternate solutions while the corporate liability attorney and/or management says no freaking way. They're all just doing their job. It's probably still being looked at.

As a systems and software engineer I try to think of what can be done to improve the situation. The first thing I would do would be to release a software change to cut power gradually rather than abruptly to resolve the issue of the rider loosing power suddenly on the highway which is very unsafe in itself. The next thing I would do is to study all the causes of VSS failure to try to find a way to minimize the number of occurrences. I would first look for software solutions because these can be implemented far less expensively than hardware recalls and therefore have a much better chance of being approved for implementation. However, whatever was done would have to be thoroughly tested and retested before being implemented because of liability issues, and that would take time, lots of time.

So that's what's going on for all of you who are wondering why nothing has yet been done about this. I'm not making excuses for BRP, I'm just telling you what's going on based upon all my years of experience in such situations.

BRP is a vast company and produces many, many products. They have only so much time and money to invest in released product improvement and like any properly run company they have to invest their available resources wisely. They'll base the effort expended to fix any single problem on any single product on immediate need and ROI (return on investment). A significant factor in this decision is customer feedback. If a lot of customers or dealers are upset enough about a problem to actually take the time and effort to write to a manufacturer, it should get attention. A lot of people grumble about limp mode but how many are motivated enough to actually contact BRP about it? If you feel strongly enough about this issue and you want it fixed, you're going to have to be a squeaky wheel.

I hate to break this to ya, but three wheeled vehicles can be more stable than four wheeled vehicles. It is not that difficult to design one either. http://www.rqriley.com/3-wheel.htm Wheelbase and center of gravity play large roles. On a spyder, large percentages of the vehicle weight are placed high on the vehicle (rider/passenger).

[Bob Denman]

I hate to break this to ya, but three wheeled vehicles can be more stable than four wheeled vehicles. It is not that difficult to design one either. http://www.rqriley.com/3-wheel.htm Wheelbase and center of gravity play large roles. On a spyder, large percentages of the vehicle weight are placed high on the vehicle (rider/passenger).

And what do you suggest doing about those two pesky lumps of mass?

Alternately; how wide do you want it to be? Currently, ther're at about five-feet wide... They certainly would become more unwieldy if you went to six feet or more...

It's true that anthing can be designed... Will it be marketable; that's an entirely different issue!

[pro10is]

I hate to break this to ya, but three wheeled vehicles can be more stable than four wheeled vehicles. It is not that difficult to design one either. http://www.rqriley.com/3-wheel.htm Wheelbase and center of gravity play large roles. On a spyder, large percentages of the vehicle weight are placed high on the vehicle (rider/passenger).

You're talking theory not reality. The Spyder is not inherently stable without the VSS, BRP readily admits this and even demonstrates it in their training DVD. Bob is correct, an inherently stable three wheeled vehicle probably would not be practical and/or marketable.

[pro10is]

The VSS can't be switched off? How about pulling the fuse for it? Seems to me it was disabled in the video on disc that came with my RT to show how the machine handles on wet pavement with and without it. I'll take my chances with it disabled and even give BRP and Release of Liability. In fact, I'll give BRP a release on everything associated with that ridiculous software, just get that JUNK out of and off my RT and give me a machine I can have on the road and not in the shop all the time so some stupid BRP created reason. Funny this complaint has surfaced seeing as how I'm the only one who has troubles with his Spyder, as I was told.

Of course BRP has the ability to turn it on or off but the user doesn't unless they defeat the system which is possible but certainly not advisable. The VSS is not junk, it actually significantly improves the safety and drivability of the Spyder. Fortunately or unfortunately we're all going to have to get used to and accept computer controlled systems in our vehicles, they're not going away and will in fact play a larger role in years to come.

The Spyder's computer controlled systems certainly have their problems but BRP can and should resolve them. Again I say if you're not happy take the time to write to them and let them know. Let them know why you chose not to keep your Spyder or purchase another one. This is the only way a consumer can influence the decisions of a corporation.

[reverendg]

You're talking theory not reality. The Spyder is not inherently stable without the VSS, BRP readily admits this and even demonstrates it in their training DVD. Bob is correct, an inherently stable three wheeled vehicle probably would not be practical and/or marketable.

When dealing with physics...reality mimics theory. You bring up practical limitations of the platform, just as most 4-wheelers have limitations. That is true for any platform, but again, a four wheeled platform of similar dimensions would handle how?

[Bad Dog6]

And then you have the Elio. Same 3 wheel platform $6800. Hmmmm!

[Dwight]

There are several 2 wheel front, 1 wheel back trikes that seem to operate well without the nannyfied operating system imployed by the Spyder. When I first went to the dealership to check out the Spyders I met someone on one of the Italian built (maybe Piaggo?) 3 wheel leaning scooter trikes. He was swooping back and forth across the lane, it was a pretty impressive display, and our Spyders don't lean. There is a west coast builder equiping the large HD's with a front wheel leaning trike kit. I've had a long telephone conversation with him and was impressed with his work. The last video I saw from him was of a Tilting Trike rally with around 20 - 30 bikes. Pretty sure it doesn't include VSS,ABS,CBS or even NBC.
So, nothing much I say will matter but if BRP would have just given us the oppertunity to select the amount of control the Nanny has it would have made the bike, IMHO, much better. Most of the crotch rocketts produced now give you a choice of how much control you want to give away to the Nanny. Perhaps the first thing they should have done was hire an engineer that was a motorcycle rider and not a snowmobile rider. I truly don't care what it takes to develop the software for the operating system but I don't think using the operating system for a 4 wheel vehicle as a starting point was the thing to do. How about just building one with no operating system, riding it for 50K and then adding the minimum necessary system to it? If they were scared to ride one that way I would have voluntered. After all, I won a AMA National Championship racing a dirt track sidecar rig. Talk about something that is hard to handle! Oh, by the way, they didn't even have personell computers back then! Fun times, and I lived through it!

No offense intended.

Dwight

[Pirate looks at --]

How can i tell if these upgrades have been installed ?
THKS

Is there any confirmation that this has been done. I stopped the dealer for something else yesterday and the manager didn't seem to know anything about it.