Cops in Cuba......

[Firefly]

There is a world of difference between a PRIVATE house and a PUBLIC highway. You have the RIGHT to assemble but you do not have the RIGHT to drink and drive, nor for that matter public intoxication. You can be Otis and stumble in the roadway, get hit, and ruin someone elses life. Most drunk drivers, BTW, do not die if they get in a car wreck. Its the non-drunk. I'm sure most cops do not prefer to be working at checkpoints. They are open targets for a nut. Checkpoints are usually budgeted by federal grants. Small towns like Cuba simply do not have the funding. If the checkpoints waved off all Spyders and zeroed in on only cagers, then thats profiling. Most, if not all, prom dates do not go on a Spyder to the dance. Teenage drivers, especially on special nights, are more prone to not using common sense. Admittedly, been there, done that. By the grace of God I didn't hurt anybody. If the law zeroed only teenage drivers, that too would be profiling. The federal grant protects all citizens. None of us likes being pulled over when we have done nothing wrong, but if your son or daughter were on the road without seatbelts and high on drugs or booze would you like that any less? I'm sorry. I can't buy the 4th Amendment argument and I can't buy anarchy either. Law enforcement is generally a REACTIVE profession. In this case, its a PROACTIVE position. As far as the Spyder ryders, my hats off to all I saw...you were ryding with helmets ON. I was in the EMS and LE at one time. I won't say I've seen it all. But I've seen things that would turn your stomach and give you nightmares for the rest of your life. All in the name...of freedom. BTW, next time you get pulled over into a checkpoint, thank them for protecting your life.

A few things.

1. You saw all of us wearing helmets because Missouri is a helmet state.
2. Pertaining to the 4th Amendment - it has been proven it most certainly DOES extend to your vehicle and your body.
3. Considering that texting causes far more accidents than drunk driving, then you should be fine with a checkpoint to pull everyone over and see if they have been texting while driving... after all... it could save a life. Right?
4. No one is advocating that drinking and driving is safe or a good idea.
5. This wasn't a special night for teens. There was no prom on a Thursday night.

I would also note that the local Huddle House was filled with Meth tweekers every night we went in at 2:00am. Sure seems this would have been a bigger concern than doing a checkpoint... yet no cops were anywhere to be found.

Really interesting conversation. Just how far should we all go in giving up our liberties and rights ? Obviously the line continues to move... and certainly there are cases that we would all agree on.... but the worst reason to give up your liberties is "I'm not doing anything wrong, so it doesn't affect me".

Thanks to (most) for being civil in this conversation and not getting personal.

[zrc]

Thanks to (most) for being civil in this conversation and not getting personal.

I'm not Civil! I have nothing to do with Structural Steel Design.

[Firefly]

Thanks for sharing your stories ZRC. I agree 100%. I'm sure many will jump on you for admitting you'll have a drink and ride or drive... even though it is perfectly legal.... for now.

Certainly not drinking at all is the best guarantee of not getting into trouble or causing an accident, but keeping yourself in check and under the limit is also legal.... like it or not.

I personally had ONE Bud Lite that night that someone bought me... and then it was a good 2 hours before I left... so I had ZERO concerns on my riding ability or getting into any trouble.

The only other time I've encountered a check point was in Indiana.. and I complied fully... hadn't had a thing to drink... was actually looking for a place to buy and take back to my room.

Most of us Spyder owners did our drinking back at the hotel.... the safest bet for sure.

[Bob Denman]

Most of us Spyder owners did our drinking back at the hotel.... the safest bet for sure.

A wise choice...

[wyliec]

Certainly not drinking at all is the best guarantee of not getting into trouble or causing an accident, but keeping yourself in check and under the limit is also legal.... like it or not.

I'm also sure there are those who felt they were in check even after they got into an accident. There are far too many people who say they know their limit and don't.

What I find funny is each time someone says we're giving up a freedom (based on their thinking), which means our freedom of choice doesn't exist or count.

These are just my observations. I have neither said I'm on the side of check points or that I'm not.

Firefly,

This wasn't directed at you. I just happened to use your post for a quote that you had written in response to someone else.

[zrc]

I'm also sure there are those who felt they were in check even after they got into an accident. There are far too many people who say they know their limit and don't.

What I find funny is each time someone says we're giving up a freedom (based on their thinking), which means our freedom of choice doesn't exist or count.

These are just my observations. I have neither said I'm on the side of check points or that I'm not.

Firefly,

This wasn't directed at you. I just happened to use your post for a quote that you had written in response to someone else.

I agree with said statement above! And I am not saying we are giving up freedom, I am just noting that at times people that should be doing something for the right reasons abuse their power for the incorrect reasons or to prove a point. I dont like my few rights being infringed upon. Basically if you dont read laws and dont defend yourself you will find that the police cross the line unless you know they shouldnt. At least they do here in my home town.

[Firefly]

I'm also sure there are those who felt they were in check even after they got into an accident. There are far too many people who say they know their limit and don't.

What I find funny is each time someone says we're giving up a freedom (based on their thinking), which means our freedom of choice doesn't exist or count.

These are just my observations. I have neither said I'm on the side of check points or that I'm not.

By keeping yourself 'in check' , I mean using a breathalyzer to make sure you are well under the limit. It's the only way to be sure...... and yes... I carry one with me if I'm out and about and make sure if I'm driving home that I'm well under the limit. There are many good units on the market that can be bought for around $100-$200. It also comes in handy when you have 'that friend' that insists they're 'okay to drive'. One simple test and you can show them they are not.... and save them a trip to jail or worse......

-------------------------

I've still yet to hear anyone give a good reason why 'texting' checkpoints would be any different than 'DUI' checkpoints......

Drinking and driving is illegal (above .08 in most states) and will impair your driving ability.
Texting and driving is illegal in many states.... and it doesn't matter what amount of texting.... it will impair your driving ability... and actually is far more dangerous: http://www.cnbc.com/id/31545004/site/14081545

So using the 'keep people safe' logic..... 'texting' checkpoints should be done also. Hand your phone over and let the cops see if you've been texting while driving. Anyone really think this would be okay to let the cops read your texts at a checkpoint?

If you're swerving or driving erratically.. that gives probable cause to check the driver for various things that may be impairing their ability to drive... otherwise I don't agree with stopping people using a big net hoping to catch a few.

[Mspiv]

So I guess a check point that is checking for 2 vs 3 wheel vehicles would be ok wi Spyder riders cause everyone knows that 3 wheels are less likely to kill than 2 wheels.

I have a _________ who's ________ was killed in a 1vehicle accident failing to negotiate a curve on a conventional MC. This would not have happened if the popo road block had been there to stop all conventional from taking that route.

Road block checks save lives. I doubt it..

If it save one life it was worth it. Specious argument and definitely not cost affective.

Darwin says if your stupid don't procreate. Or something like that

[Bob Denman]

If texting or talking on a cellphone is illegal in your state; why not have the LEOs keep an eye out for it?
Here in New York; they largely are looking for expired plates or inspections, lack of insurance, drivers' license issues, or whatever they can smell on the driver when the window drops...
Let 'em look! If you've got everything up to snuff and you're not having an issue with recreational chemicals; what do you need to hide?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

TITO, I am the big mouth former LEO on this thread and I think you were wrong....In that you didn't SUE, I would have....LEO's do not have the right to violate anyone's rights and I feel you'rs were definately violated, if you're discription of the events are acccurately portrayed. I also want to applaud the many spyderlovers here who are brave enough too State actual facts and understand there meaning . make no mis-take I am not an un-conditional COP LOVER, but I truly believe 99.99 % of them will gladly put it on the line..everytime....and during 911 who was running in while everyone else was running....the emergency service personnel...cops ,firepersons, emt's etc....I think that covers it......Mike

[zrc]

TITO, I am the big mouth former LEO on this thread and I think you were wrong....In that you didn't SUE, I would have....LEO's do not have the right to violate anyone's rights and I feel you'rs were definately violated, if you're discription of the events are acccurately portrayed. I also want to applaud the many spyderlovers here who are brave enough too State actual facts and understand there meaning . make no mis-take I am not an un-conditional COP LOVER, but I truly believe 99.99 % of them will gladly put it on the line..everytime....and during 911 who was running in while everyone else was running....the emergency service personnel...cops ,firepersons, emt's etc....I think that covers it......Mike

I have no doubts that in bigger better cities where LEO's and Emergency people are respected that you get a better part of the crop, just means the little towns like mine are boned on good cops. Not only did that happen, they asked me what I did, to which I responded Chemical Engineering, they asked where, and what I was doing currently there. I proceeded to tell them, and discribe IN DEPTH Brine Solution and Mercury Electrolyzing to create Hydrogen and Chlorine gas. They looked at me like I was insane. They "wanted to talk to my brother" when he picked me up. They told him "Mr. Carman is obviously not intoxocated and doesnt appear to be inebriated but we cant let him drive out of this checkpoint"

What does that even mean? I have all my papers, all my required crap, and I am not breaking the law, and this is the result? It was infuriating, it was insulting, and it was darned inconvient.

I am and will be the first person to commend true heroes, and the men & women in 9/11 were just that. I wish I could say the same for the Athens, TN PD, however, I have yet to meet one that wasnt attempting to provoke me, or looking for trouble. There is no call for that, if I am in order and not breaking the law, either leave me be or haul me off.

When I get caught speeding and get a ticket, I always pay it, I am always nice and I know I deserved it. Its that simple. When I am doing what I am SUPPOSED to and LEO's waste my time, theirs, waste MY money, THE COMMUNITIES MONEY, and really the opportunity cost of ACTUALLY CATCHING A CRIMINAL just to be douches to me cause they can, thats garbage.

I am not trying to create issues or fuel the fire in this thread, I am just saying that people most of the time turn a blind eye when they shouldnt, just letting it happen isnt ok, because sooner or later, it stops being ok. Until that night at that checkpoint, I was ok with checkpoints because "I wasnt doing anything wrong, so why should I care" That night not doing anything wrong cost me 4ish hours, almost lost me a firearm I LEGALLY OWNED, and lots of threats about what they "COULD" do. They pulled over the wrong guy thinking they had a winner for tickets. DUI's in TN = 10,000 bucks over about 3 years, from fees / special insurance / revoked driving / etc. Couple that in with being "disorderly" and then having a firearm or other substance, suddenly BAM you pay the cops a healthy little sum.

I GUARENTEE YOU, if one of us that was carrying at Cuba had had their firearm taken, this thread would be going differently.

Cause if they pulled me over and went through my bags, I had a Tauras Millenium and about 20 UNOPENED air plane bottles of liquor. They would have had a FIELD day with me, even though, ALL OF THAT IS LEGAL.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Understand that the PD in that jurisdiction is not run by the indians but by the Chiefs and they are the ones who dictate how the river and everything else flows if you get my drift.....They don't know how lucky they were that they stopped you and not me.....because after the FIRESTORM of legalities were finished that town would have found out just how expensive STUPIDITY can be ......that's one of the reasons I learned a lot about people's " Civil Rights " because if you violate them ....it can get very very expensive......Mike.....

[Firefly]

I know many that WERE carrying weapons in Cuba..... so that certainly would have been an issue.

BTW ZRC..... you should never just 'pay a speeding ticket'. Don't argue with the cop, take the ticket and be nice... BUT... you can 'beat' just about every speeding ticket... and by 'beat' I mean you can get the points removed and just pay the fines. In fact, a group I belong to .... the National Motorists Association (NMA) will actually PAY for your ticket if you cannot 'beat' it.

http://www.motorists.org/

Fact of the matter is, speeding tickets are all about REVENUE. They make a ton from it.. and most people won't bother to fight them. They will ALWAYS take extra $$$ to get rid of the points..... which tells you right there they care more about $$$ than safety.

But I digress........

-------------------

Bob Denman wrote:

"If you've got everything up to snuff and you're not having an issue with recreational chemicals; what do you need to hide?"

It's this kind of thinking that drives me nuts. I bet the Jews didn't think they had anything to hide from the Nazi's either.........sure-- maybe that's a bit of a stretch.. the the foundation of having the right to privacy is still there.

The fact that I don't have anything to hide is the exact reason why it's wrong for them to search me.

Unfortunately I see in the paper every day how people just allow the cops to search them and it just makes me sad that they don't know their rights.

Watch this from about 2 minutes on........


After 3:30 minutes the cop goes nuts when the driver doesn't allow him to search his vehicle without a warrant.

Guess who was right? Wasn't the cop!

[Bob Denman]

Here in New York: you pay the fine, you get the points! No ifs, ands, or buts...
I've heard this same line a thousand times; the points are there and the conviction is there... Guess what? The judges LIE every day to these morons just to get them out of their courts.
Next time I hit a checkpoint, I'll have them search me twice and tell them to give you a pass...

[Firefly]

Oh.. and ZRC... I've seen video of DUI checkpoints where a guy blows a .05 and they let him drive away.......

[Firefly]

Here in New York: you pay the fine, you get the points! No ifs, ands, or buts...
I've heard this same line a thousand times; the points are there and the conviction is there... Guess what? The judges LIE every day to these morons just to get them out of their courts.
Next time I hit a checkpoint, I'll have them search me twice and tell them to give you a pass...

So you're saying that in New York State you are not allowed to fight a ticket? When did New York succeed from the nation?

Sorry, but I'm not buying that you can't fight a ticket in court. Fact is they would rather not tie up the courts with silly tickets... so almost every state offers deferments.... you usually just pay a bit more... take an online class or stay ticket-free for 6 months and they wipe the ticket off your record. Been there... done that. Points go buh-bye......

[boborgera]

Here in New York: you pay the fine, you get the points! No ifs, ands, or buts...
I've heard this same line a thousand times; the points are there and the conviction is there...

You sure,? My Son got a speeding ticket in NY, Pleaded it down to a instrument fine, Paid a fine, With no points.
I Know a few people who when they got a points violation plead it down, Pay the [heavy] fine no points.
Most times you don't even see a Judge, It gos to an arbitrator [Assistant Da]
Now maybe if you did something stupid like going 25 miles over the limit etc, Then all bets off.?

[Bob Denman]

You're mixing applesauce and wrenches...
Pleading a moving violation down to an equipment violation is reasonably common...
But when the Judge tells the speeder to plead guilty, pay the fine and "don't worry about the points"... somebody's getting screwed! and it ain't tthe Judge!

[Bob Denman]

[QUOTE=Firefly;448324]So you're saying that in New York State you are not allowed to fight a ticket? When did New York succeed from the nation?

QUOTE]
We didn't succeed from anything...nor did we secede...
I didn't say that you couldn't fight it; and that's not what you said either...

[dancogan]

...
Unfortunately I see in the paper every day how people just allow the cops to search them and it just makes me sad that they don't know their rights.

Watch this from about 2 minutes on........

After 3:30 minutes the cop goes nuts when the driver doesn't allow him to search his vehicle without a warrant.

Guess who was right? Wasn't the cop!

What's so hard to understand is that the cop knows it's all being videotaped and recorded, and yet he just really flips out.

Ever since 9/11 people seem so willing to give up the very liberties that so many have died for ...

[Arr MiHardies]

What's so hard to understand is that the cop knows it's all being videotaped and recorded, and yet he just really flips out.

Ever since 9/11 people seem so willing to give up the very liberties that so many have died for ...

Most of them got given up with the passing of the "Patriot Act" as a direct result of 911.

[boborgera]

You're mixing applesauce and wrenches...
Pleading a moving violation down to an equipment violation is reasonably common...
But when the Judge tells the speeder to plead guilty, pay the fine and "don't worry about the points"... somebody's getting screwed! and it ain't tthe Judge!

The only way you'll see the Judge on a speeding violation, Is if like i said before you were doing something stupid, Or if you do like my friends wife did' She thought She was ''so'' right that she wouldn't take the deal and wanted to go before the Judge, Big misstake.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Firefly the only thing New York has succeeded in doing recently was beating the " Patriots " and I wasn't Happy with that either.... Mike.....

[IGETAROUND]

Most of them got given up with the passing of the "Patriot Act" as a direct result of 911.

Oh yes, Thank you so much for this law which keeps us ALL so safe from the bad guys EACH and EVERY day!!

[Bob Denman]

Firefly the only thing New York has succeeded in doing recently was beating the " Patriots " and I wasn't Happy with that either.... Mike.....

... Oh! Sorry!