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  1. #51
    Very Active Member wyliec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post

    If the ends justify the means, then any means is justified.
    Thanks Ron,

    Now I know where/how the tv series 'Justified' got its name. Great series, by the way.

    Now, back to the debate.

  2. #52
    Very Active Member Arr MiHardies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    The system did not fail. What happened is the people failed to adhere to the system and they failed. That is exactly what is being discussed here.
    isn't that exactly what's happening? Again...? In this case not adhering to the fourth amendment.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    The system did not fail. What happened is the people failed to adhere to the system and they failed. That is exactly what is being discussed here.

    If the ends justify the means, then any means is justified.

    Every democratic society in history has ended up in tyranny, and always for the same reason. When people realize that they can vote to themselves other people's resources it's all downhill from there.They make the step down to socialism and that always degrades into tyranny.
    The problem with this whole debate is if we all bow down to the ends justify the means than we all should wear helments in a car give up our spyders our bikes our sharp knifes and let the goverment decide who can breed just like hitler believed all these things would save lifes and would be justified by the ends right

  4. #54
    Very Active Member Arr MiHardies's Avatar
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    I'm of mixed opinion on this whole thing. I live in Vegas, which has one of the highest DUI rates out there. I addition to having been struck by a drunk driver back in August. Luckily no serious injuries to write home about, and a nice settlement coming my way.

    I'm all for giving drunk drivers who kill the murder charge. I'd also like to see drunk drivers who don't kill attempted murder (or at least manslaughter) charges. Enough is enough, and its time to crack down HARD on these morons that think it's okay to put everyone's life in danger.

    My father and uncle are retired firefighters, and a great many of my family and relatives were/are in the service. Even my wife works for the police department as a corrections assistant. I have nothing but respect for the men and women who risk their lives for us on a daily basis.

    However, nothing gives the any of them the right to search me or my property without just cause. I am supposed to be protected from that by the fourth amendment. Period. Just because I am driving or riding somewhere is not cause. They want me to stop, fine. As police officers they have the authority to pull someone over and set up road blocks. But unless I exhibit symptoms of having been drinking, they had better wave me by pretty darn quickly. Otherwise there is no just cause and any searches would be illegal.

    And the way it is being described as occurring in Cuba, it is clearly evident it was set up as a result of the presence of 500+ spyders. That is profiling at best and discrimination at worst.

    Do you think the cops out here tried that BS during the Laughlin River Run this week?... Where there were thousands of bikers? Hell no! There'd be a riot! And a quick google search confirms it.
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  5. #55
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    A pretty emotional subject, to be sure. Having been in the fire service in San Diego, CA. for 33 years I saw some pretty horrendous things caused by drunk drivers. I am not, in any way, favorable to drinking and driving.

    As others have pointed out, our founding fathers who came from intollerable conditions, gave us protections against what they escaped. Things don't go from freedom to tyranny quickly. It's a 'Boil the Frog', gradual loss of freedoms. Piece by piece, bit by bit, always with great justification and many times with wide public support. Until you wake up one day and someone is tellling you when to breath in and when to breath out.

    If you really want to put a hurt on drunk driving, set up checkpoints at the exits of any alcohol serving establishment. And then wait for the wailing to begin!

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDXBONES View Post
    Targeting, detaining, and questioning an individual, or groups of individuals, in an attempt to find evidence of wrongdoing, and not releasing them until they effectively prove their innocence, is inconsistent with every principle that this country was founded upon.

    As an American, no matter WHAT I am doing, did, or might do, I am presumed to be innocent, until PROVEN guilty. Driving is a privilege, but exercising that privilege shouldn't forfeit my rights. Police checkpoints belong in police states, not in America.

    How many of our country's founders lost life and limb to secure the rights that are so casually tossed aside when someone thinks-
    "If the ends justify the means, then any means is justified."

    Not when it comes to our American rights. As Americans, we should be outraged at any attempt to weaken our protections against illegal search and seizure. Police roadblocks are just another one of those attempts.

    Of course I don't condone drinking and driving. Heck, I don't even drink. And violators should pay the appropriate penalties. But encouraging the police stop me for no other other reason than to see if I'm impaired, is a situation we as Americans should never have let happen.

    What's the next 'justifiable' transgression of your rights?


    I agree with you HDX and Firefly, but don't bother to waste your breath on trying to convince these people that checkpoints are wrong. All they care about is the aspects of preventing DUI not the rights people died over to protect. It's sad but, it's already a lost cause.

    We all should save this thread and when Vetrans Day rolls around we will certainly see one of these supporters of the checkpoints thanking Vets in the yearly salute to Vetrans. We all should remind them that they don't care if they have rights Vetrans fought for.
    Last edited by arntufun; 04-28-2012 at 12:46 PM.

  7. #57
    Very Active Member rnet's Avatar
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    Been following this thread and I do see both sides of of the debate and Fly, all I can say is WOW. There is hope for you after all. A good buddy told me so, but I did not believe him. I've heard your even watching Fox.
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  8. #58
    Very Active Member wyliec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arntufun View Post

    We all should save this thread and when Vetrans Day rolls around we will certainly see one of these supporters of the checkpoints thanking Vets in the yearly salute to Vetrans. We all should remind them that they don't care if they have rights Vetrans fought for.
    I think we thank veterans for our right to freedom of choice.

    I learned my lesson last year on debating checkpoints here. My feeling on debating anything is it's better face-to-face.

    The one thing I will debate you on is: veterans, not vetrans.
    Last edited by wyliec; 04-28-2012 at 01:45 PM.

  9. #59
    Very Active Member wyliec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnet View Post
    Been following this thread and I do see both sides of of the debate and Fly, all I can say is WOW. There is hope for you after all. A good buddy told me so, but I did not believe him. I've heard your even watching Fox.
    I know Fly is alright. He watches Kenny Powers.

  10. #60
    Registered Users Roger's Avatar
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    Well somebody sure did slap a behive today! All i am saying about this issue and yes you should all take note. As a member of the AMA thier is a big push to end (MOC'S) Motorcycle Only Checkpoints. Some states have already done this, I have sent messages to all my representatives to end this practice in New York State. Yes i vote and usually i let whatever happens happen but this time i got involved and told them that this is discrimination in the highest form!! and if i can't ride my bike with out being subject to these check points then i will take my bike and ride else where and spend my money thier.

    Roger

  11. #61
    Very Active Member wyliec's Avatar
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    Roger,

    That's called exercising your right to freedom of choice. Someone else may feel strongly and send a letter to their representative stating that they agree with checkpoints. It's all freedom of choice.

  12. #62
    Very Active Member Arr MiHardies's Avatar
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    It's not about whether drinking and driving is bad.
    It's not about whether or not checkpoints save lives or have a positive result.
    It IS about whether or not such checkpoint are constitutional and a violation of our rights.
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  13. #63
    Very Active Member wyliec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arr MiHardies View Post
    It IS about whether or not such checkpoint are constitutional and a violation of our rights.


    Randy,

    You're not going to say I changed my opinion, are you?

  14. #64
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    This is a battle that has been fought many times...many, many, many times...in regards to Bike
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arr MiHardies View Post
    It's not about whether drinking and driving is bad.
    It's not about whether or not checkpoints save lives or have a positive result.
    You know something... I'll buy that premise!



    So lead on, Arr...

    And I STILL don't mind hitting checkpoints; the LEOs are out on the road; their presense alone may give some folks something to think about...
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  16. #66
    arntufun
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyliec View Post
    I think we thank veterans for our right to freedom of choice.

    I learned my lesson last year on debating checkpoints here. My feeling on debating anything is it's better face-to-face.

    The one thing I will debate you on is: veterans, not vetrans.

    If It's my freedom of choice, I choose not to agree with these checkpoints !!!

    Opps !!! Sorry, I'm not a very good speller.

    I would never ask you to change your opinion, thats what I like about you.
    Last edited by arntufun; 04-28-2012 at 03:37 PM.

  17. #67
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    Oh you are SUCH a civil Libertarian!
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  18. #68
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    Go away to ryde on my for a couple of days and come back to see we have the livliest thread in a long time. I am kind of liking all sides of the argument so have nothing more to add there. All above are 'hot butten" subjects and we are not going to win all the arguments with the strong opinions on all sides.

    Me: I am still at where I will have a drink once in awhile in moderation. I don't like checkpoints that profile particular drivers. I will stay out of the guns stuff. I may have some, I may not. The NSA can figure it out.

    The craziest checkpoint that I can remember was on the opening day of fishing in Northern Minnesota. Half way between Duluth and Grand Marais, on the North Shroe Drive, the Game wardens were pulling over every vehicle pulling a boat. They went through everyone's coolers checking for overlimits of fish.

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  19. #69
    Registered Users Sny's Avatar
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    Did you ever think that they were doing it to keep people safe?

    I know everyone is assuming that they're doing it to make money... but that's just plain silly. Even if they pulled over and ticketed every one of the hundreds of Spyders that might have crossed their checkpoint they would break even at best.

    They made a big deal about it so everyone would talk about it, and then be more careful about riding after drinking.

    Hey, if you can have your completely uninformed assumption I can to right? Cuba's got some pretty nice people there. I'll assume they're trying to keep us safe from ourselves and each other.

    You may now resume the conspiracy theories.
    tHe SmOkEr YoU dRiNk ThE pLaYeR yOu GeT!

  20. #70
    Registered Users JCSMOKE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sny View Post
    Did you ever think that they were doing it to keep people safe?

    I know everyone is assuming that they're doing it to make money... but that's just plain silly. Even if they pulled over and ticketed every one of the hundreds of Spyders that might have crossed their checkpoint they would break even at best.

    They made a big deal about it so everyone would talk about it, and then be more careful about riding after drinking.

    Hey, if you can have your completely uninformed assumption I can to right? Cuba's got some pretty nice people there. I'll assume they're trying to keep us safe from ourselves and each other.

    You may now resume the conspiracy theories.
    I knew you drank the cool aide down there!
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  21. #71
    Registered Users Sny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCSMOKE View Post
    I knew you drank the cool aide down there!
    Among other things...
    tHe SmOkEr YoU dRiNk ThE pLaYeR yOu GeT!

  22. #72
    Very Active Member Firefly's Avatar
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    One DUI ticket would net them thousands.....then there's all the other tickets they'll nail people with.....no insurance card, license problems, etc.

    Regardless of whether they're doing it for money or safety (it's a combination IMO)......it's a violation of the 4th amendment.

    Plenty of other things they could do to keep us safer from ourselves too....

    Good discussion and good points on both sides....but I'm gonna stick with personal freedom.

    Oh...and yeah...I watch Fox every time I need a good laugh..... ;-)


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  23. #73
    Very Active Member Arr MiHardies's Avatar
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    What happens if you refuse to their search under the terms of the 4th amendment?
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  24. #74
    Very Active Member lyonsden's Avatar
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    It is not the checkpoints that I object to as much as I object to being targeted because of attending a Spyderfest event in Steelville. Seriously, a checkpoint on Thursday night? No matter what is said that is the part that I object to. That's all I'm saying about it. Had a GREAT time at Spyderfest!

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  25. #75
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    Default TOTALLY AMAZED

    I thought I could walk away from this But I am amazed at the thought process some of the people here are vocalizing. Where should Law Enforcement go looking for POTENTIAL DUI violators...the parking lot of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir ( no offense to Mormons ) or a BAR where there is going to be a KNOWN large congregation of people.....Not Spyder people ...just People.....If it had been the Corvette Club the cops would have been there for that too, or maybe even the Shriners (no offense to Shriner's either)....if the cops get a tip about a Bank robbery at 5th and Main st. , do they set up at 20th and State st.......Do you get it now.....Mike.....Be Happy.....

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