Hybrids and MPG

[Yeochief]

A thread on the Hybrid Spyder inspired this, I don't want to high jack that thread, so I will start another.

All current hybrid vehicles suffer from the same defect, that being battery technology which hasn't caught up with motor technology. Powerful electrical motors exist that propel vehicles with jaw dropping performance. Electrical drag cycles are nearly the equal to conventional ones, but a 1320 foot ride isn't exactly a trip to Hooters for wings and a brew.


High performance electrical motors draw huge amounts of current and present technology simply does not provide huge amounts of power for long periods in anything that is portable.

Nuclear submarines are mobile, but hardly practical transportation for one or two people. Besides, nuclear reactors do not generate electricity, it produces heat which produces steam which turns turbines that generate electricity.


All hybrid technology we currently know about relies mostly on electricity generated elsewhere and stored on the vehicle until needed. Until technology develops for portable generation of electricity in a package small and light enough to replace the internal combustion engine we will likely see vehicles that only the wealthy can afford.

I realize that many people who do not consider themselves “wealthy” drive hybrids, but they are paying a premium to appear “green”. Most of the electricity that those hybrids use is generated by “not so green” power plants and transmitted over big ugly wires. In addition, they likely won't own the vehicle or live long enough to recoup the extra expense in fuel savings.


What I don't understand is why my brother's Road King that weighs over one hundred pounds more and has an engine that is 1.6 times the displacement gets 50 to 60 mpg riding 2 up and I cannot get even 30 mpg on my 2009 GS/RS riding single. I know the Spyder is wider than the Road King, but it isn't exactly a refrigerator crate when it comes to streamlining. A Road King loaded up with fairings and bags is a pretty big machine.


I'm not an automotive engineer, and I understand that there are many reasons for the difference in MPG between a Harley Road King and a Spyder Roadster. I just think that BRP might serve the public better if they worked to improve gas mileage on what they are currently producing while working on future technology. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

[Arr MiHardies]

Well, I think why the spyders use more gas is because they use Rita's engines, which like to go at near double the rpms of a normal motor for ideal performance. double the rpms = half the gas mileage.

Just my guess.

[spydee owner]

A thread on the Hybrid Spyder inspired this, I don't want to high jack that thread, so I will start another.

All current hybrid vehicles suffer from the same defect, that being battery technology which hasn't caught up with motor technology. Powerful electrical motors exist that propel vehicles with jaw dropping performance. Electrical drag cycles are nearly the equal to conventional ones, but a 1320 foot ride isn't exactly a trip to Hooters for wings and a brew.


High performance electrical motors draw huge amounts of current and present technology simply does not provide huge amounts of power for long periods in anything that is portable.

Nuclear submarines are mobile, but hardly practical transportation for one or two people. Besides, nuclear reactors do not generate electricity, it produces heat which produces steam which turns turbines that generate electricity.


All hybrid technology we currently know about relies mostly on electricity generated elsewhere and stored on the vehicle until needed. Until technology develops for portable generation of electricity in a package small and light enough to replace the internal combustion engine we will likely see vehicles that only the wealthy can afford.

I realize that many people who do not consider themselves “wealthy” drive hybrids, but they are paying a premium to appear “green”. Most of the electricity that those hybrids use is generated by “not so green” power plants and transmitted over big ugly wires. In addition, they likely won't own the vehicle or live long enough to recoup the extra expense in fuel savings.


What I don't understand is why my brother's Road King that weighs over one hundred pounds more and has an engine that is 1.6 times the displacement gets 50 to 60 mpg riding 2 up and I cannot get even 30 mpg on my 2009 GS/RS riding single. I know the Spyder is wider than the Road King, but it isn't exactly a refrigerator crate when it comes to streamlining. A Road King loaded up with fairings and bags is a pretty big machine.


I'm not an automotive engineer, and I understand that there are many reasons for the difference in MPG between a Harley Road King and a Spyder Roadster. I just think that BRP might serve the public better if they worked to improve gas mileage on what they are currently producing while working on future technology. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

You make some good points and have some legitimate beefs. Who wouldn't like better fuel mileage?
Your spyder at 60 mph is probably turning 5000 rpm while the Harley is doing 60 at probably 3000 rpm. The spyder engine is way more high tech than the Harley mill. Not to say that Harley is not a good engine, they are just two very different beasts. Final drive ratios also come into play.
At some point technology has to stop at maybe an awkward point in order to get to the next step. The technology just doesn't jump from one level to the next without some growing pains along the way.
Even if fuel mileage jumped tomorrow for all vehicles from 20 mpg to 70 mpg, the suppliers of gasoline would be charging $7.00/gal instead of $4.00.
Besides, your fun factor is probably way better than your brother's.

[Campverdefela]

If I wanted better mileage and 3 wheels I would have bought a Harley trike, but I liked the advantages of the Spyder and sacrifice some mileage. I'm no engineer but suspect that BRP did the best they could with the design they settled upon, power, performance, economy. The hybrid Spyder they are working on appears to substantially improve mpg without sacrificing performance, however I'm not convinced that such an even more complex Spyder is what I would go for which I'm sure would involve more maintenance and subject to additional gremlins popping up. That being said my Spyder gets about 32 highway with a fair amount of performance mods and others have reported better that that, so I for one am comfortable with the power/economy level.

[NancysToy]

......What I don't understand is why my brother's Road King that weighs over one hundred pounds more and has an engine that is 1.6 times the displacement gets 50 to 60 mpg riding 2 up and I cannot get even 30 mpg on my 2009 GS/RS riding single. I know the Spyder is wider than the Road King, but it isn't exactly a refrigerator crate when it comes to streamlining. A Road King loaded up with fairings and bags is a pretty big machine......

The biggest factor in fuel mileage is not weight or road friction, it is aerodynamic drag. The Spyder frontal area is larger than the Road King or any other motorcycle, and the Spyder is very dirty aerodynamically, with its exposed suspension. It is far larger and dirtier than the dressed out Road King. Because the bags on that are rearward, they don't hit the airstream as much as you may think, and they are already in "dirty" air, not disrupting a clean air flow. There is really nothing you can compare the Spyder to effectively, because there is nothing else in its class. You can compare cars, you can compare motorcycles, you can even compare airplanes, but you should not expect to compare one type of vehicle with another and get anything that makes sense. You can make a comparison of objects with similar frontal areas, but then the aerodynamics can make a huge difference, especially as the air passes over the machine. A larger, closed car, will have far better aerodynamic characteristics than a Spyder with an exposed rider. Apples and oranges, my friensd...apples and oranges.

[r1100rider]

A thread on the Hybrid Spyder inspired this, I don't want to high jack that thread, so I will start another.

All current hybrid vehicles suffer from the same defect, that being battery technology which hasn't caught up with motor technology. Powerful electrical motors exist that propel vehicles with jaw dropping performance. Electrical drag cycles are nearly the equal to conventional ones, but a 1320 foot ride isn't exactly a trip to Hooters for wings and a brew.


High performance electrical motors draw huge amounts of current and present technology simply does not provide huge amounts of power for long periods in anything that is portable.

Nuclear submarines are mobile, but hardly practical transportation for one or two people. Besides, nuclear reactors do not generate electricity, it produces heat which produces steam which turns turbines that generate electricity.


All hybrid technology we currently know about relies mostly on electricity generated elsewhere and stored on the vehicle until needed. Until technology develops for portable generation of electricity in a package small and light enough to replace the internal combustion engine we will likely see vehicles that only the wealthy can afford.

I realize that many people who do not consider themselves “wealthy” drive hybrids, but they are paying a premium to appear “green”. Most of the electricity that those hybrids use is generated by “not so green” power plants and transmitted over big ugly wires. In addition, they likely won't own the vehicle or live long enough to recoup the extra expense in fuel savings.


What I don't understand is why my brother's Road King that weighs over one hundred pounds more and has an engine that is 1.6 times the displacement gets 50 to 60 mpg riding 2 up and I cannot get even 30 mpg on my 2009 GS/RS riding single. I know the Spyder is wider than the Road King, but it isn't exactly a refrigerator crate when it comes to streamlining. A Road King loaded up with fairings and bags is a pretty big machine.


I'm not an automotive engineer, and I understand that there are many reasons for the difference in MPG between a Harley Road King and a Spyder Roadster. I just think that BRP might serve the public better if they worked to improve gas mileage on what they are currently producing while working on future technology. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

Ok I'm getting enough of all this I've rode bikes for 40 years and people alway expect them to get 100 mpg I just tell them I have corvette performance if you want mpg get a 50cc scooter But good luck feeling safe when every car on the road catches and wants to pass you,ever notice how dangerous the passing becomes when a slow car is holding up traffic

[billybovine]

A thread on the Hybrid Spyder inspired this, I don't want to high jack that thread, so I will start another.

All current hybrid vehicles suffer from the same defect, that being battery technology which hasn't caught up with motor technology. Powerful electrical motors exist that propel vehicles with jaw dropping performance. Electrical drag cycles are nearly the equal to conventional ones, but a 1320 foot ride isn't exactly a trip to Hooters for wings and a brew.


High performance electrical motors draw huge amounts of current and present technology simply does not provide huge amounts of power for long periods in anything that is portable.

Nuclear submarines are mobile, but hardly practical transportation for one or two people. Besides, nuclear reactors do not generate electricity, it produces heat which produces steam which turns turbines that generate electricity.


All hybrid technology we currently know about relies mostly on electricity generated elsewhere and stored on the vehicle until needed. Until technology develops for portable generation of electricity in a package small and light enough to replace the internal combustion engine we will likely see vehicles that only the wealthy can afford.

I realize that many people who do not consider themselves “wealthy” drive hybrids, but they are paying a premium to appear “green”. Most of the electricity that those hybrids use is generated by “not so green” power plants and transmitted over big ugly wires. In addition, they likely won't own the vehicle or live long enough to recoup the extra expense in fuel savings.


What I don't understand is why my brother's Road King that weighs over one hundred pounds more and has an engine that is 1.6 times the displacement gets 50 to 60 mpg riding 2 up and I cannot get even 30 mpg on my 2009 GS/RS riding single. I know the Spyder is wider than the Road King, but it isn't exactly a refrigerator crate when it comes to streamlining. A Road King loaded up with fairings and bags is a pretty big machine.


I'm not an automotive engineer, and I understand that there are many reasons for the difference in MPG between a Harley Road King and a Spyder Roadster. I just think that BRP might serve the public better if they worked to improve gas mileage on what they are currently producing while working on future technology. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

I agree with most of what your saying but your terms are incorrect.

Electric vehicles get their power from the grid to charge the batteries.
Hybrid vehicles get all power to charge the batteries from the onboard engine. They can be designed in two ways to operate, either to improve gas milage or performace.
Plug in hybrid get some of there power from the grid or from the onboard engine to improve range.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

SORRY BUT YOU ARE WRONG, IT IS A REFRIGERATOR WHEN IT COMES TO STREAMLINING....ALSO OUR REAR TIRE ALONE HAS MORE TIRE PATCH ON THE ROAD THAN BOTH TIRES ON THE ROAD KING.....I THINK YOU NEED A TUNE-UP OR SOMETHING...I CONSISTANTLY GET 37 MPG WITH MY 08 G/S AND I BET I HAVE THE LARGEST WINDSHIELD YOU HAVE EVER SEEN....BUT IT IS SEVERLY RAKED AND THAT MUST MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE....BEFORE THE WINDSHIELD I ONLY AVERAGED 34MPG...MIKE...

[granpa in Cincy]

BRP is getting a lot of money to develop the hybrid.
BRP is getting zero money to improve MPG conventionly.

[Questions]

I laugh at myself for rationalizing why being a show off, spoiling myself, and making my spirit smile might be safer, more environmentaly sensitive, or make some kind of perverted economic sense. I laugh WITH all of you when I read threads such as this because we all realize we are merely entertaining ourselves, yet we still get caught up in the political and economic winds of the day. With a minimum of research it is readily apparent that electric or hybrid vehicles have a larger total carbon footprint than conventional vehicles, and life cycle costs will be forever so inherently high that "economy" really has no place in the discussion.

I'm merely waiting for a 1500 cc engine in the RT with a big gas tank so I can buy one.

We ride because it makes our spirit smile - and we can afford it.

[hrbeta]

I laugh at myself for rationalizing why being a show off, spoiling myself, and making my spirit smile might be safer, more environmentaly sensitive, or make some kind of perverted economic sense. I laugh WITH all of you when I read threads such as this because we all realize we are merely entertaining ourselves, yet we still get caught up in the political and economic winds of the day. With a minimum of research it is readily apparent that electric or hybrid vehicles have a larger total carbon footprint than conventional vehicles, and life cycle costs will be forever so inherently high that "economy" really has no place in the discussion.

I'm merely waiting for a 1500 cc engine in the RT with a big gas tank so I can buy one.

We ride because it makes our spirit smile - and we can afford it.

I'm 100% with you, bro...

[DragonLorD]

I laugh at myself for rationalizing why being a show off, spoiling myself, and making my spirit smile might be safer, more environmentaly sensitive, or make some kind of perverted economic sense. I laugh WITH all of you when I read threads such as this because we all realize we are merely entertaining ourselves, yet we still get caught up in the political and economic winds of the day. With a minimum of research it is readily apparent that electric or hybrid vehicles have a larger total carbon footprint than conventional vehicles, and life cycle costs will be forever so inherently high that "economy" really has no place in the discussion.

I'm merely waiting for a 1500 cc engine in the RT with a big gas tank so I can buy one.

We ride because it makes our spirit smile - and we can afford it.

+1

[DLewis]

+2

[IGETAROUND]

Have a friend with a Harley trike, he gets ~ 33mpg, paid $35,000. Like he pointed out he didn't buy it for the mpg but for the smiles/mile it affords the rider. Suspect that we all could say the same about our 's.

[Firefly]

Hybrid technology is still in its infancy. Things have to start somewhere, and at the very least this whole 'movement' is making them take a hard look at aerodynamics and weight, etc.

The electric motors and drive systems,etc are using technology that will help with hydrogen fuel cells once those come to fruition. Apple has announced that it's next generation iPads an iPhones will use hydrogen fuel cells.

Certainly the way we generate electricity isn't as clean as it needs to be, but it should be easier to control he emissions at the generation source than on the car, just due to the massive difference in quantities of cars vs power plants. Easier to regulate.

If a person was to generate their own power via sun and wind and then charge the car from there-- that would be pretty clean.

Pertaining to the hybrid Sypder, they actually designed a new engine that gets better mpg, of course it's like a 660...I believe they're using it in a few products to also improve mpg.

We should all benefit from these technologies eventually.

[Campverdefela]

Hybrid technology is still in its infancy. Things have to start somewhere, and at the very least this whole 'movement' is making them take a hard look at aerodynamics and weight, etc.

The electric motors and drive systems,etc are using technology that will help with hydrogen fuel cells once those come to fruition. Apple has announced that it's next generation iPads an iPhones will use hydrogen fuel cells.

Certainly the way we generate electricity isn't as clean as it needs to be, but it should be easier to control he emissions at the generation source than on the car, just due to the massive difference in quantities of cars vs power plants. Easier to regulate.

If a person was to generate their own power via sun and wind and then charge the car from there-- that would be pretty clean.

Pertaining to the hybrid Sypder, they actually designed a new engine that gets better mpg, of course it's like a 660...I believe they're using it in a few products to also improve mpg.

We should all benefit from these technologies eventually.

This is true but we must also accept the complexity involved and just like with todays auto the only maintenance that most will be able to to is wash and wax.

[Bob Denman]

But Scotty is right; it's aerodynamic drag more than anything else that sends us to the pumps quicker...
However... If you took a small diesel motor and use it just to generate juice to power electric motors to provide the forward motion...
But where'd the fun be in that???

[NancysToy]

While I agree that aerodynamic drag is one the causes of the Spyder's less than stellar mpg performance, I think the underlying issue is the relatively low torque that the Rotax produces. The horsepower figures are nice to brag about, but they are created in the upper rpm regions, when both throttle bodies are wide open and demanding substantial fuel delivery......

Harleys get great fuel mileage because they make a lot of torque in the lower rpm ranges. You don't need very much throttle to maintain cruise speed, climb grades, or pass on the highway...... I consistently get 45 mpg at 70 mph with a 1690cc mill on a RoadGlide that weighs about the same as an RT......

Modern diesels are the same as well. Heck, I can get 20 mpg plus in my 8000# full size diesel pickup without trying too hard....

The high rpm, short stroke 990 Rotax is never going to be a high torque engine, even with the RT's bump in compression. Until BRP comes up with a bigger bore, longer stroke powerplant, disappointing fuel mileage will always be a topic of discussion.

There's no replacement for displacement...........

If there is anything the Spyder needs, it is certainly more torque. Even torque-blessed TriGlides and GW trikes don't do too well in the mileage department, though, due to their large frontal area. I imagine they would do even worse in reverse...laid out like a Spyder.

[boborgera]

. Even torque-blessed TriGlides and GW trikes don't do too well in the mileage department, though, due to their large frontal are.

I AGREE;
My Tri Glide which i replaced my Spyder with, Gets between 30/35 MPG's My Spyder got between 33/37 MPG's Both of which i didn't buy for gas milage.

[Bob Denman]

The high rpm, short stroke 990 Rotax is never going to be a high torque engine, even with the RT's bump in compression. Until BRP comes up with a bigger bore, longer stroke powerplant, disappointing fuel mileage will always be a topic of discussion.

Longer stroke will produce more torque! Years ago I had a snowmobile engine "tinkered up" just a little bit...

We moved the connecting rod out about 60 thousandths to give us a 3mm longer stroke... BOOM! That sled was a powerhouse from idle to 8000 rpm. Prior to the build the clutches were tuned to kick in at about 5100 rpm and it spun to 8200... When we got done the belt was being grabbed at 3700 rpm and was ferocious off the line.
Most fun I ever had!

[chris56]

I see it in this way ..

1.; I hate to buy goods (petrol) from countries like XXXX
2.; So our technicians should do everything that we don`t "need" them
3.; Each single product in this area helps us to make us "free"
4.; logic for me to become a hybrid-spyder-ryder ..(HSR) ???

[NancysToy]

Longer stroke will produce more torque! Years ago I had a snowmobile engine "tinkered up" just a little bit...

We moved the connecting rod out about 60 thousandths to give us a 3mm longer stroke... BOOM! That sled was a powerhouse from idle to 8000 rpm. Prior to the build the clutches were tuned to kick in at about 5100 rpm and it spun to 8200... When we got done the belt was being grabbed at 3700 rpm and was ferocious off the line.
Most fun I ever had!

The trouble with longer stroke engines is that they are difficult to get to meet emissions requirements. As a result, today's answer is usually more displacement, not just longer stroke. I'd give my eye teeth for a modern single-cylinder enduro bike with the grunt of my old Victor 441 or BSA Goldstar.

[bone crusher]

I agree with Fire in regards to hybrids being in their infancy.

I was one of the first to get the Lexus RX400 hybrid back in 2005-2006. It was about 1 second faster 0-60 than the comparable non-hybrid, and it got about 3-4mpg better. This is really not worth it, to me...I would not buy another hybrid again unless the specs are far better and the price is not so much more. On another note, hybrids are NOT that great for the economy...what to do with those old traction batteries is becoming an issue.

The best way to go, without question...hydrogen-power vehicles...and we're not far from that...however, containing it is virtually impossible as it passes through most materials...we'll get there though...endless amount of the stuff to use...

I think at 30mpg, the Spyder is fine. I ride it for fun and it supplies that just fine. My minivan...well, I won't even talk about the horrible mileage that gets.

I think the hybrid Spyder will be nice, but to me, it won't be worth an additional several thousand dollars...I love my 08 GS and I'll stick with it for the forseeable future. Why change what I'm happy with? It's like a computer...as soon as you get one, something newer is coming out. You can never have the latest and greatest for long...

[ARtraveler]

All good information above.

My .02 on the subject.

The incresed mileage to me--is not worth the increased cost. What did you save?

The technology is still in its infancy. Big heavy batteries that cost thousands to replace and what about the ecological footprint they leave behind.

Additional technological things to go wrong--I don't think we need that added to the

You have to plug these into the power grid. Your still using fossil fuels to charge the battery system up. Unless your area is powered by nukes.

Mileage that is unacceptable for touring. I usually don't ride less than a hundred miles on any ride. The only thing the hybrid would be good for, for me, would be my 40 mile daily commute. My Vulcan gets 50 mpg--so I can save even more by riding that.

[Questions]

I see it in this way ..

1.; I hate to buy goods (petrol) from countries like XXXX
2.; So our technicians should do everything that we don`t "need" them
3.; Each single product in this area helps us to make us "free"
4.; logic for me to become a hybrid-spyder-ryder ..(HSR) ???

Excellent rationalization!!! Capitalism is alive and well!