Something Is Rotten in the Spyder engine

[MouthPiece]

I love Doc as much as anybody in the SpyderLovers family, but I just can't support him here. There burden of proof on the manufacturer isn't that heavy. All they would have to show is that equipment that was capable of causing operation outside the design parameters of the engine and systems, was installed and used. This would be simple with the limited capabilities of the fuel injection, sensors, and ECM, and the limited cooling system on the Spyder. Unless the turbo manufacturer could produce results from extended testing, that showed no damage to the stock engine, it would be hard for to deny a turbo was capale of wreaking havoc. Showing that the modification could easily have caused the damage seen, should be enough. This would be especially easy with an owner with a history of racing, high speed operation, and operation in the upper rpm ranges. Sound familiar? If I were the owner, I would grin and bear it.

I do think that it would be outstanding for the manufacturer or a dealer to step up to the plate and offer a replacement engine at cost...strings or no strings. What a great idea! If I got that engine, I would build it to the hilt, especially addressing the weaknesses that showed up in the teardown. If the pistons from the recent failure looked like the ones in the photos, I would be looking at more than forged pistons. Melting pistons points out a need for additional cooling, additional fuel, and possibly modified ignition timing. Bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump and lines, a different engine management system, a bigger radiator, and more water flow would be good thoughts. An oil cooler fan and thermostat wouldn't hurt. Better monitoring could be used to find the problem areas.

In the end, even this stuff might not be enough. We used to run nitro through the old Chrysler hemis. At a certain point in our quests for speed, all we did was destroy them wholesale. The physical characteristics of the motor had been reached and exceeded, and nothing on earth was going to hold them together anymore. Re-engineered aftermarket blocks and heads from Donovan, Keith Black, and Ed Pink became necessities. All engines have their physical limits. I wish that was not true, but like the man said, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

Scotty, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. I guess I didn't do it as artful or perhaps articulate as you. However, I did note Doc's response, and it was more or less "thanks, but no thanks".

Chris

[Smokinspyder]

WOW those pistons were FRIED !!!! I havent seen pistons that messed up in a LONG LONG TIME ( Last motor we decided to see exactly how much abuse we could put it through . ) . Building a turbo motor with out building up your bottom end can work just as long as you dont " push to much " But thats another discussion .If our pistons from the us N/A guys ended up like that i would be asking about our mixtures and other questions ,Since building motors isnt exactly rocket science. BRP can void any warranties on their products legally as long as they can provide proof that ANY and ALL aftermarket equipment was the reason their product failed . In this case putting forced induction on a motor that wasnt techanically meant to be boosted, Now if they werent able to prove the turbo caused this then we all know how to handle it jsut because you purchased something with cash does not void your warranty EVER ( if you paid cash for a new RS or RT is your warranty void ???? NOPE ) But here you may want to read this since I have dealt with this more times than i want to even think about ( Building race cars/show cars and dealing with the mobile electronics side of things for somewhere since i was 17 yrs old and im 34 now ). Here is a Link to the Magnuson-Moss warranty act incase yall never heard about it . From a professional build the motor before you want to boost . Itll cost you more $$$$ but in the long run its safer. Good luck with a rebuild if you do . I give you kudos for boosting your spyder. I have been thinking about doing something like that recently ... Since its a motor not really designed for boosting you are a pioneer and seems everyone really likes you so I stand up and applaud you for being one of the first to try this route !!!! Good luck .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

[NancysToy]

Scotty, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. I guess I didn't do it as artful or perhaps articulate as you. However, I did note Doc's response, and it was more or less "thanks, but no thanks".

Chris

Chris, you did just fine. I just wanted to reinforce what you said. Sorry I didn't make that as clear as I should.

[bone crusher]

WOW those pistons were FRIED !!!! I havent seen pistons that messed up in a LONG LONG TIME ( Last motor we decided to see exactly how much abuse we could put it through . ) . Building a turbo motor with out building up your bottom end can work just as long as you dont " push to much " But thats another discussion .If our pistons from the us N/A guys ended up like that i would be asking about our mixtures and other questions ,Since building motors isnt exactly rocket science. BRP can void any warranties on their products legally as long as they can provide proof that ANY and ALL aftermarket equipment was the reason their product failed . In this case putting forced induction on a motor that wasnt techanically meant to be boosted, Now if they werent able to prove the turbo caused this then we all know how to handle it jsut because you purchased something with cash does not void your warranty EVER ( if you paid cash for a new RS or RT is your warranty void ???? NOPE ) But here you may want to read this since I have dealt with this more times than i want to even think about ( Building race cars/show cars and dealing with the mobile electronics side of things for somewhere since i was 17 yrs old and im 34 now ). Here is a Link to the Magnuson-Moss warranty act incase yall never heard about it . From a professional build the motor before you want to boost . Itll cost you more $$$$ but in the long run its safer. Good luck with a rebuild if you do . I give you kudos for boosting your spyder. I have been thinking about doing something like that recently ... Since its a motor not really designed for boosting you are a pioneer and seems everyone really likes you so I stand up and applaud you for being one of the first to try this route !!!! Good luck .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

Don't need to prove ANY and ALL...really just prove ANY or ALL...but who's counting...I like the turbo idea myself...better for BRP to eventually add this so that it IS covered under warranty...

[SethO]

they looked better than mine did and I did not have a turbo,

if brp wants the younger demographic then the doc's and hooligan's have to be there and somehow helped out, I don't know how to do that but a block or stock engine to build up would be a sale of way more spyders to younger riders.


hooliganism is catching on, buy a ticket and take the ride.

[Firefly]

WOW those pistons were FRIED !!!! I havent seen pistons that messed up in a LONG LONG TIME ( Last motor we decided to see exactly how much abuse we could put it through . ) . Building a turbo motor with out building up your bottom end can work just as long as you dont " push to much " But thats another discussion .If our pistons from the us N/A guys ended up like that i would be asking about our mixtures and other questions ,Since building motors isnt exactly rocket science. BRP can void any warranties on their products legally as long as they can provide proof that ANY and ALL aftermarket equipment was the reason their product failed . In this case putting forced induction on a motor that wasnt techanically meant to be boosted, Now if they werent able to prove the turbo caused this then we all know how to handle it jsut because you purchased something with cash does not void your warranty EVER ( if you paid cash for a new RS or RT is your warranty void ???? NOPE ) But here you may want to read this since I have dealt with this more times than i want to even think about ( Building race cars/show cars and dealing with the mobile electronics side of things for somewhere since i was 17 yrs old and im 34 now ). Here is a Link to the Magnuson-Moss warranty act incase yall never heard about it . From a professional build the motor before you want to boost . Itll cost you more $$$$ but in the long run its safer. Good luck with a rebuild if you do . I give you kudos for boosting your spyder. I have been thinking about doing something like that recently ... Since its a motor not really designed for boosting you are a pioneer and seems everyone really likes you so I stand up and applaud you for being one of the first to try this route !!!! Good luck .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

Paid cash for my Spyder and no problem getting warranty service--- but realize he had a very unique situation when he had the engine replaced at the salt flats. Had the dealer pull engine from floor model and install on his Spyder--- then paid for new engine for dealer to replace the one removed from floor model. Not sure just how that would affect the warranty--but it apparently did...

[dave01]

You are right you can't turbo on a stock motor when it's not modfied with the correct parts (pistons, rods, crank and cases and the list goes on and on.....). You can't blame BRP, they build street motors not racing. That's IMHO.


Mike

Sure you can. Keep the boost at 6lbs, run super unleaded and you should not have any issues. I put 42K miles on my 99 Busa with a stage 1 Velocity kit with no issues at all. Its when you try for that little bit of extra hp that it bites you.

[docdoru]

Stage 1: New fuel management distribution, 255 High Pressure fuel pump and 630 injectors. Answer only to PM's for details.

[Smokinspyder]

The original warranty on the bike/motor etc, is vaild until the dealer can prove it wasnt the fault of the spyder (#1). By saying that because you paid cash is really meaningless. Now because it was being boosted its pretty easy to say warranty void because they didnt design that way . Now had they said the warranty was void because it was boosted well its cut and dry .It wasnt meant to be boosted from the start. Comparing a busa to a spyder no offense its like comparing corvette to a civic .
I didnt add this last post I would LOVE to see pics I hope they are on your spyderlovers page because . If you built it and put you blood and sweat into something you definately deserve kudos !


#1- im REALLY JEALOUS !!!! and do you have any pics we can see PLEASE

[NancysToy]

Stage 1: New fuel management distribution, 255 High Pressure fuel pump and 630 injectors. Answer only to PM's for details.

Glad to hear you went this route. I hope you can work around the fuel mapping and timing roadblocks to take full advantage of these mods. I think they are essential for your needs.

[retread]

I heard today about a mod you can install in the return line of the FI; increases pressure with engine speed. I'll check into it and post it. Seems like it would cure the lean out condition.

john

[docdoru]

Stage 2: You are running 12 PSI of boost at an altitude of 1000 feet. Rotax's static compression is 11 :1. At this boost level and altitude your effective compression ratio is 19.78 :1, and without altitude correction your compression ratio would be 19.98 :1.

[Bob Denman]

[QUOTE=docdoru;363827]Stage 2: You are running 12 PSI of boost at an altitude of 1000 feet. Rotax's static compression is 11 :1. At this boost level and altitude your effective compression ratio is 19.78 :1, and without altitude correction your compression ratio would be 19.98 :1.[/QUOTE]

That sounds like a "Pop! Goes The Weasel..." just waiting to happen...

[Dragracer]

As an Independent Mechanical Inspector (I'm the guy the extended warranty company sends to inspect the claim at the repair shop) I can vouch for your statement, Lamonster. Any performance modification pretty much voids your warranty. Same with suspension modifications, such as altering the original height, etc. Lights, air filters, wheels & tires (unless way oversize) have no effect on most warranties.

There's guys on here that are worried about voiding their warranty when they add LED lights, I'm pretty sure that adding a turbo would more than qualify for no warranty.

[retread]

Do you have a rising rate fuel pressure regulator? They go in on the return fuel line and restrict the return depending on the vacuum /pressure in the intake. This might be an answer to your top end lean out condition, just make sure you get one that's set up for turbocharging.

john

[docdoru]

Do you have a rising rate fuel pressure regulator? They go in on the return fuel line and restrict the return depending on the vacuum /pressure in the intake. This might be an answer to your top end lean out condition, just make sure you get one that's set up for turbocharging.

john

Yes, plus Walbro 225 High Pressure fuel pump and IWP 630 injectors.

[Firefly]

[docdoru]

Well, after so many months of try and failed, the IMPROVED and HEAVILY MODIFIED Rotax is ready to be tested (drag race) on the Silver Dream (2.15.2012). For me, 6 moths and 10 days was worth the wait.
I have great respect and admiration to ...:

[dave01]

Doc, That video makes me dizzy watching it. Bring on the Silver Dream.....

[SteveMac]

Oh boy. This is gonna be good. Can't wait for some more videos!!!

Glad you are back on the Spyder Doc!

[NancysToy]

Outrageous! I have ridden and driven hundreds of drag races in my time, but that's the first one I ever did backwards. Sure looks different that way. Very cool!

Glad to hear you're back on the road again, Doru!

[Mo Lee]

Was that around 10 seconds? Sounds real good!

[Bob Denman]

[spyder-dude]

Welcome back Doc. Hope to see you next month in Daytona!

[TuckMiddle]

Interesting and educational exchange above.I've never gotten into that stuff, always had to get a house and all those everyday things. Lamonster, when I get the decals you sent the other day, I hope they won't void my warranty! I was already worried about the Spyder decals on the brake calipers. Put mine on with some Gorilla glue and the are now part of the bike forever.
I'm glad some of you do all this racing and speed stuff. It'll eventually drift through BRP's system and might very well produce some improvements for all of us. Keep up the good work and remember "somebody's gotta do it!" Did you see the 267 mph Bugger (Bugatti, I don't even know how to spell it) that was sent around on the internet this week? $1.7 million and 2 gallons a minute at max speed. Also I think it was $38,000 for tires for the 32 miles they ran it super fast. Makes a Spyder look real inexpensive.

Tuck