Something Is Rotten in the Spyder engine

[Firefly]

And now, the question: what's the difference between a turbo and a naturally aspirated Rotaxengine piston melt down?

One gets covered under warranty and the other doesn't?

[docdoru]

Its very obvious that you are a revered person on S/L. You have done a lot to promote Spyder and have performance tested your vehicles to the max.

I am nothing but a Spyder owner concerned about the roadster feasibility.

[bjt]

IMO, a warranty is in place to cover the customer from a bad part or design flaw. Anytime you add something other than stock, the potential is there to damage an otherwise perfectly good piece of equipment. Thats why manufacturers aren't willing to warranty things with a bunch of aftermarket parts. The person has taken a potentially long lasting machine (or at least out of the warranty period) and put something on it that can reduce the life of the machine. The same goes for doing maintenance on your own. The warranty is based on an expected level of competence and an untrained mechanic / owner may or may not have the skills to do the work.

[NancysToy]

And now, the question: what's the difference between a turbo and a naturally aspirated Rotaxengine piston melt down?

There can be a lot of difference. The results are the same, but the root causes can be far apart. Insufficient fuel system capacity, a non-adjustable ignition/fuel system, and a limited heat capacity are just a few of the engineering reasons that the same engine can survive naturally aspirated, but may die if it is blown...especially under long, full-throttle operation. Without knowing exactly how close the stock engine operates to these engineered design limitations, nobody can predict the effects of the added needs or load. I doubt anyone outside of the factory is intimate enough with the design calculations to say with any certainty what will happen when you add more oomph. Back in the old days, with the nitro motors, we always figured you had to blown up a few along the way to find out just what you could, and couldn't do. Engines always tell you about their limitations...but they do it at the funeral.

[docdoru]

I appreciate the replies and comments, both sincere and BRP damaged control generated.

[Bob Denman]

I guess I'd say the difference is if they knew that you had a "hairdryer" on top of the engine... They of course would need to find the "cause of the meltdown, so give them a leak in the intake system somewhere that's due to a busted part that they supplied...

NOT that I'm suggesting that anybody do any lying here...

[MouthPiece]

Most, if not all, responses have merit. However, I'm not sure I would kill the goose that layed the golden egg. Doc has been a tremendous ambassador for all of "spyderdom". Perhaps some kind of give and take would have been not only appropriate, but certainly beneficial to all concerned?

Chris

[docdoru]

Most, if not all, responses have merit. However, I'm not sure I would kill the goose that layed the golden egg. Doc has been a tremendous ambassador for all of "spyderdom". Perhaps some kind of give and take would have been not only appropriate, but certainly beneficial to all concerned?

Chris,
Thank you but no thank you. The moment I'll accept any favors (financials and/or preferred service) from BRP means I'll lost integrity and spine in front of the Spyder community and myself. My Spyder and her mileage are not for sale. Neither am I.

[boborgera]

I appreciate the replies and comments, both sincere and BRP damaged control generated.

Careful, you don't want to end up on the ignore list.

[SpydeRider2010]

anytime you modify the input... the output will change; and it'll change what is in the middle also.

the question to ask is... can you REALLY afford the end result? if it's more than you are currently willing to absorb... ya need to leave well enough... A LONE.

otherwise... have the winning lottery ticket and don't worry about it.

and working for one of the Big Three auto makers... BRP is NO different.

if you change it... and it screws up, as a result. get a knife and fork. because... you just ate it. companies are no longer willing to eat a bad meal... that you cooked.

any way they can cut costs... they will !!!

recently... our manufacturer voided someone's basic engine warranty, due to going 9,200 miles between oil changes; when a "knocking noise" developed in the engine. the customer couldn't provide proof of oil changes; and oil pick-up tubes DO NOT pick-up sludge in an oil pan. go... figure...

[bill pitman]

Good one, Bob !!


Bill

[bone crusher]

anytime you modify the input... the output will change; and it'll change what is in the middle also.

the question to ask is... can you REALLY afford the end result? if it's more than you are currently willing to absorb... ya need to leave well enough... A LONE.

otherwise... have the winning lottery ticket and don't worry about it.

and working for one of the Big Three auto makers... BRP is NO different.

if you change it... and it screws up, as a result. get a knife and fork. because... you just ate it. companies are no longer willing to eat a bad meal... that you cooked.

any way they can cut costs... they will !!!

recently... our manufacturer voided someone's basic engine warranty, due to going 9,200 miles between oil changes; when a "knocking noise" developed in the engine. the customer couldn't provide proof of oil changes; and oil pick-up tubes DO NOT pick-up sludge in an oil pan. go... figure...

Agree but all this talk about food and cooking has made me hungry!

[spydee owner]

The spyder engine is a well proven powerplant (many years in the Aprillia motorcycle). Major engine mods and driving an engine hard, and it"s BRP's fault because ??? When you start turboing and other crazy st, you need a purpose built engine.

[effgjamis]

The spyder engine is a well proven powerplant (many years in the Aprillia motorcycle). Major engine mods and driving an engine hard, and it"s BRP's fault because ??? When you start turboing and other crazy st, you need a purpose built engine.

I am not sure I understand your point..

Doc and the Spyderdom relationship is most outstanding in my book.

I just have a bungie cord that just keeps on working.

[docdoru]

The spyder engine is a well proven powerplant (many years in the Aprillia motorcycle). Major engine mods and driving an engine hard, and it"s BRP's fault because ??? When you start turboing and other crazy st, you need a purpose built engine.

Did you tell the same think for the failed "power plant" non-turbo Spyders?

[johnnyg]

I am not sure I understand your point..

Doc and the Spyderdom relationship is most outstanding in my book.

I just have a bungie cord that just keeps on working.

You tell them Forrest.

[jedd]

This is one of those deals where many of us felt this was going to happen, Doc you need a good engine builder that will stand behind building a power plant running at 100% duty cycle for ever. You have the coin so that is my suggestion. As to warranty of this failure,,I can't side with you om that. Now all that being said do I think BRP should offer some assistance? The answer to that is yes they should by not paying warranty they are released of any liability, and setting you up with a engine at cost or something of that nature would be a great act of goodwill on their part.
You've pushed the envelope too far on this one my friend The Aerocharger IMHO is the elephant in the room. I know other engines have melted down without the Aerocharger, however everyone at BRP knows you have it so can't blame them for denying warranty.

Build a good naturally aspirated horse and you'll be quicker, and more likely to survive long long WOT runs.

Sorry Man,
Jim

[spydee owner]

Did you tell the same think for the failed "power plant" non-turbo Spyders?

From what I see, it is just my opinion, that far too many spyder owners think they know what is best for the bike or what will or will not damage it if they install aftermarket parts. Far too many owners must think that no engineering went into the bike before certain parts were selected or certain settings where made.
The bike was designed with a particular end use in mind and comes with good performance and handling, for BRPs target demographic.
I use all BRP oil and lube products, air filters, tires, plugs, and get excellent tire wear, good performance and most of all excellent dependability. Furthermore, if I were to have a major malfunction, I can show that it's all BRP products that were used.

It's a bike owners right to do as they wish and modify the machine as they want. It just does not seem right to be making a blanket statement that there is something wrong with the engine when it has been proven long before the spyder came along and even now there are many people happily enjoying there spyders using them for what they were designed for.

BRP seems to be a company that does the right thing when they know there is a major mechanical problem (power steering recall).
I am not aware of any warranty that covers failures when the product has been used in competition or modified for performance.

I don't know for sure but I would think that BMW or HD given similar circumstances would end up with the same resolution.

[patdcop]

I bet Doc is asking the Aprilia team to build an RSV 1000 motor for a turbo application with can am mounts.

[bone crusher]

From what I see, it is just my opinion, that far too many spyder owners think they know what is best for the bike or what will or will not damage it if they install aftermarket parts. Far too many owners must think that no engineering went into the bike before certain parts were selected or certain settings where made.
The bike was designed with a particular end use in mind and comes with good performance and handling, for BRPs target demographic.
I use all BRP oil and lube products, air filters, tires, plugs, and get excellent tire wear, good performance and most of all excellent dependability. Furthermore, if I were to have a major malfunction, I can show that it's all BRP products that were used.

It's a bike owners right to do as they wish and modify the machine as they want. It just does not seem right to be making a blanket statement that there is something wrong with the engine when it has been proven long before the spyder came along and even now there are many people happily enjoying there spyders using them for what they were designed for.

BRP seems to be a company that does the right thing when they know there is a major mechanical problem (power steering recall).
I am not aware of any warranty that covers failures when the product has been used in competition or modified for performance.

I don't know for sure but I would think that BMW or HD given similar circumstances would end up with the same resolution.

You make valid points but you are protected by the law if you add a third party component and it has no effect on the failure of a warrantied part. In this case, a turbo charger is a no brainer on the effect of an engine, but as others have pointed out, adding LEDs, new shields, different pipes, better air filters, etc...these would be hard to link to serious issues.

I believe it's how far you go and the risk you're willing to take. All vehicle manufacturers have small print...for a reason. However, the onus falls on the dealer/manufacturer to prove that a modification caused an issue...in most cases, most of us here are fine. If the cause cannot be directly determined, they cannot deny you. Only a few have gone so far as to basically completely alter their engine...

[dave01]

You make valid points but you are protected by the law if you add a third party component and it has no effect on the failure of a warrantied part. In this case, a turbo charger is a no brainer on the effect of an engine, but as others have pointed out, adding LEDs, new shields, different pipes, better air filters, etc...these would be hard to link to serious issues.

I believe it's how far you go and the risk you're willing to take. All vehicle manufacturers have small print...for a reason. However, the onus falls on the dealer/manufacturer to prove that a modification caused an issue...in most cases, most of us here are fine. If the cause cannot be directly determined, they cannot deny you. Only a few have gone so far as to basically completely alter their engine...

Very well written. A company must prove a mod caused the failure. They can not assume.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Firefly]

Agree with the most The posts- and yes it's on BRP to give a good reason as to why they are not covering under warranty.

Also remember that BRP engineers have to make the spyder EPA compliant, quiet , etc.

[dave01]

Also remember that BRP engineers have to make the spyder EPA compliant, quiet , etc.

Must be why the Spyders dont come with the Kewlmetal pipe on them.

[NancysToy]

I love Doc as much as anybody in the SpyderLovers family, but I just can't support him here. There burden of proof on the manufacturer isn't that heavy. All they would have to show is that equipment that was capable of causing operation outside the design parameters of the engine and systems, was installed and used. This would be simple with the limited capabilities of the fuel injection, sensors, and ECM, and the limited cooling system on the Spyder. Unless the turbo manufacturer could produce results from extended testing, that showed no damage to the stock engine, it would be hard for to deny a turbo was capale of wreaking havoc. Showing that the modification could easily have caused the damage seen, should be enough. This would be especially easy with an owner with a history of racing, high speed operation, and operation in the upper rpm ranges. Sound familiar? If I were the owner, I would grin and bear it.

I do think that it would be outstanding for the manufacturer or a dealer to step up to the plate and offer a replacement engine at cost...strings or no strings. What a great idea! If I got that engine, I would build it to the hilt, especially addressing the weaknesses that showed up in the teardown. If the pistons from the recent failure looked like the ones in the photos, I would be looking at more than forged pistons. Melting pistons points out a need for additional cooling, additional fuel, and possibly modified ignition timing. Bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump and lines, a different engine management system, a bigger radiator, and more water flow would be good thoughts. An oil cooler fan and thermostat wouldn't hurt. Better monitoring could be used to find the problem areas.

In the end, even this stuff might not be enough. We used to run nitro through the old Chrysler hemis. At a certain point in our quests for speed, all we did was destroy them wholesale. The physical characteristics of the motor had been reached and exceeded, and nothing on earth was going to hold them together anymore. Re-engineered aftermarket blocks and heads from Donovan, Keith Black, and Ed Pink became necessities. All engines have their physical limits. I wish that was not true, but like the man said, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

[bone crusher]

I love Doc as much as anybody in the SpyderLovers family, but I just can't support him here. There burden of proof on the manufacturer isn't that heavy. All they would have to show is that equipment that was capable of causing operation outside the design parameters of the engine and systems, was installed and used. This would be simple with the limited capabilities of the fuel injection, sensors, and ECM, and the limited cooling system on the Spyder. Unless the turbo manufacturer could produce results from extended testing, that showed no damage to the stock engine, it would be hard for to deny a turbo was capale of wreaking havoc. Showing that the modification could easily have caused the damage seen, should be enough. This would be especially easy with an owner with a history of racing, high speed operation, and operation in the upper rpm ranges. Sound familiar? If I were the owner, I would grin and bear it.

I do think that it would be outstanding for the manufacturer or a dealer to step up to the plate and offer a replacement engine at cost...strings or no strings. What a great idea! If I got that engine, I would build it to the hilt, especially addressing the weaknesses that showed up in the teardown. If the pistons from the recent failure looked like the ones in the photos, I would be looking at more than forged pistons. Melting pistons points out a need for additional cooling, additional fuel, and possibly modified ignition timing. Bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump and lines, a different engine management system, a bigger radiator, and more water flow would be good thoughts. An oil cooler fan and thermostat wouldn't hurt. Better monitoring could be used to find the problem areas.

In the end, even this stuff might not be enough. We used to run nitro through the old Chrysler hemis. At a certain point in our quests for speed, all we did was destroy them wholesale. The physical characteristics of the motor had been reached and exceeded, and nothing on earth was going to hold them together anymore. Re-engineered aftermarket blocks and heads from Donovan, Keith Black, and Ed Pink became necessities. All engines have their physical limits. I wish that was not true, but like the man said, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

Scotty, I can't think of anyone who doesn't like Doc...he's always been nice and helpful to everyone. However, I assume even the nicest guys can ruin a bike! I like your comments about getting him a new engine at cost or close to it...let Doc then rebuild the weak parts so that the bike can take advantage of his super-stresses. If this works out, it only helps BRP with future changes to the bike on their own. Nothing beats real world experience and I'm sure if BRP helps Doc out even a bit, he'd be more than likely to share his experiences with them. I imagine sooner or later BRP will want to add a turbo, supercharger, or something else to boost power. If they know the longer-term effects now, they save themselves a lot of warranty money down the road.