Something Is Rotten in the Spyder engine

[docdoru]

RS2008 SM5 with 129K miles under BRP Best Warranty:
Original Rotax 990 engine quit suddenly September 2010 with 87K mileson the Salt Flats during the 130 miles/hour attempt (front and back pistons melted) tacking out the turbine from the Aerocharge Turbo; all maintenance done in the service including valve check 6, 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72 and 84K, shimmed at 48K. See BOSSWeb.
Second Rotax 990 2010 engine stalls unexpectedly at 42K miles during the 2011 Spyder Triangle Event 20 miles NE from Reno, NV on the highway (previous oil change done under 2,800 mile in NY state). All maintenance done in the service including valve check 12 (99), 24 (111) and 36K (123K). See BOSSWeb.
If the first incident was an accident, the second was a coincidence and I do not believe it. So I called Rotax (Austria), Aerocharge and Aprilia (Germany and US):
1. The Aerocharge Turbo: dial in at 12-14 fuel/air ratio; no other turborized engines melt down.
2. Rotax 990 OEM non-forged (cast) pistons: unanimously they need to get replace from any Spyder that supposed to run long time under full throttle; already they are many other owners with the non-turbo engine failure.
3. Fuel management- fuel pump and injectors: according to Aprilia engineers, the Spyder have the tendency to lean in long full throttle instances due to lack of fuel (fuel pump and/or injectors).
BRP did not cover the warranty on the first engine; paid cash for the second engine (full list price) and engine installation (swap 3 times, still full list price). According to BRP: because the second engine was cash purchased, carry no warranty, despite the purchase and installation in a BRP authorized dealer. Spyder transportation, rental cars or plane tickets were not covered either.

[pushrod243]

Bummer, I know what its like to have a broke Spyder.

[tweeder]

Once they have your money, your

[fastfraser]

Man whats wrong with this story ??? Shame on BRP ! Doc has to be one of the best spokes people for BRP to boot ! I also was advised by my dealer and then BRP that BRP mods bought and installed by myself won't be covered under warranty.

[Mo Lee]

Sorry Doc, but I can't bring myself to get in your corner on this. You are without a doubt one of the top five in my and most everyones eyes as far as promoting and testing the Spyder. Your mods have been the envy of everyone however as the old saying goes, speed cost money just how fast do you want to go. Being a wrench for for the last 40 plus years who has tinkered in my fair share of performance mods I must say most performance engines are built for a specific purpose ie drag racing or road racing and etc. Almost any performance mod is going to shorten the life of an engine. Most cases the manufacture has the knowledge to build all kinds of horsepower however they are built with less to make them last longer to keep us the customer happy. Do I agree with everything about the Spyder BRP tells us "no", does the Spyder have design flaws "yes" and I do expect them to work out all the bugs, however I would not expect them to stand behind anything that was caused by my choice to add horsepower. I would expect the engine builder to stand behind his work unless it was stated up front he would not. Just my 2 cents.

[Lamonster]

Well Doc I would agree with you if I didn't know the rest of the story and hadn't seen how you drive. I think you got exceptional mileage out of your first motor seeing you rode it as hard as you do and then put a turbo on it with stock pistons at 80K or so. I told you that was not going last long and to be honest it lasted way longer than I thought it would. How many miles did you drive it at first with no air filter on it because it kept falling off? Not only that but the air filter is now outside of the bike where the tire throws up dirt right into it.

So the second motor you ran 3 quarts low on oil on a 4 quart motor when it blew and you want to blame Rotax on that? When you ride that hard for that long with a turbo with stock pistons you're going to get some blow-by, that's why they have a catch can that comes with the turbo. You should have been checking you oil every 500 miles or so to see how much you are blowing by to figure out when you need to add oil, and you will need to add oil.

There is a reserve built into the injectors but anytime you're going to hold any motor full throttle for miles and miles you need to put it on the dyno and make sure your air/fuel is correct for the abuse you plan on putting it through. In your case when you put the turbo on all bets were off. This is a classic case of if you want to play you're going to pay.

Sorry Bro I love you man but there's over 30,000 Spyders out there and most of them are holding up just fine. If you want to race cross country wide open throttle you better build that motor like we talked along time ago. I've been there done that and was trying to help you save some money by doing it right. You keep throwing stock motors on a turboed bike and run it balls to the walls like you do it will blow again.

[Bob Denman]

I guess that I'm not the only one who doesn't understand the lack of a warranty due to a cash purchase... (Maybe you shoulda used Green Stamps???)
Still... When you twist the tail of anything mechanical as hard as you have... KA-BOOM! happens more often than we like...
Maybe BRP should hire you as a test pilot; busting stuff is their job!

[Lamonster]

I guess that I'm not the only one who doesn't understand the lack of a warranty due to a cash purchase... (Maybe you shoulda used Green Stamps???)
Still... When you twist the tail of anything mechanical as hard as you have... KA-BOOM! happens more often than we like...
Maybe BRP should hire you as a test pilot; busting stuff is their job!

There's guys on here that are worried about voiding their warranty when they add LED lights, I'm pretty sure that adding a turbo would more than qualify for no warranty.

[Firefly]

Gotta agree that I really don't see this as a BRP problem - sorry doc-- but turbo is gonna void warranty. I wouldn't think they'd cover any engine with a 3rd party turbo added. Should they cover it if you add nitro too ?

I'm not sure what the warranty is on new engine.... But your situation certainly was unique in that they had to remove an engine from floor model spyder at dealer in order to accommodate your needs.

I really think you're asking for too much out of a stock engine--- best get one rebuilt to handle the kind of riding you do.

Hope you get her back on the road soon!

[docdoru]

--- best get one rebuilt to handle the kind of riding you do.

build one in secrecy...

[dave01]

Although a turbo addition is a fairly big change, does ANYONE know ( facts only) what modifications void the warranty on our Spyders? I have never seen anything in print from BRP officials as to what we can/can not do. JB Pro's, Power Commanders, Green filters, Evoluzion intakes, different than BRP oil usage, 02 Modifiers, exhaust changes? Just curious in case I have issues later down the line.

[docdoru]

There's guys on here that are worried about voiding their warranty when they add LED lights, I'm pretty sure that adding a turbo would more than qualify for no warranty.

There are lots of mod's between LED's and Turbo: where is the official (in writing)demarcation line? Green filter? Performance air intake? Juice Box?

[arntufun]

You all are way to quick to say the turbo caused the problem. What about that other member here on this forum that his engine blew after 17 miles after his rebuild ???

[Lamonster]

Although a turbo addition is a fairly big change, does ANYONE know ( facts only) what modifications void the warranty on our Spyders? I have never seen anything in print from BRP officials as to what we can/can not do. JB Pro's, Power Commanders, Green filters, Evoluzion intakes, different than BRP oil usage, 02 Modifiers, exhaust changes? Just curious in case I have issues later down the line.

I don't know, what would Suzuki say if you blew up your 700hp Busa? Would you even consider it to be their fault? I would say if you change anything that relates to fuel management you're on your own wouldn't you? I take responsibility for my actions when I mod my bikes.

PS: 3 quarts low on oil would void your warranty no matter what mods you had.

[Bob Denman]

I don't think that he and Doc share the same mechanic...
Rule of thumb for negating a warranty:I
If it's going to be MORE fun and FASTER... you're gonna get screwed!

That's why I only add shiny Farkles now...

[Tonga]

I am in agreement, modify it and it is yours! I have done that to 2 Miatas ( Supercharged ) and I am on my 3rd and have decided not to modify it because of warranty. BRP are not liable for a Modified Engine.

[arntufun]

Here is the Q&A portion of the turbo company's web page for the Spyder in regards if it would damage the Spyder or void warranty.




Q: Will this turbo kit void my warranty?
A: Putting an aftermarket muffler on could void your warranty depending on the circumstances. Our testing shows that the Spyder Rotax engine is a very capable engine to support our kit, but it is up to your local dealer to determine if this bolt-on performance enhancement will void your warranty.

Q: Will the Aerocharger turbo kit "damage" my Spyder?
A: Absolutely not. Many Spyder owners carry multiple people, pull trailers, and mount all kinds of accessories on their bikes. The factory clutch and belt are specifically designed to handle increased load. If you have any concerns about your clutch, Barnett Performance makes an aftermarket clutch kit that your authorized Spyder dealer can install.

[dave01]

LOL....They said Oh Well, 3 times. 2 blew apart on the dyno, trying for the max horsepower I could get. Now, with JE forged pistons, Falicon crank and rods, APE head studs etc, she is nearly bullet-proof. Oh, Doc and I had the same mechanic, but not engine builders.

I don't know, what would Suzuki say if you blew up your 700hp Busa? Would you even consider it to be their fault? I would say if you change anything that relates to fuel management you're on your own wouldn't you? I take responsibility for my actions when I mod my bikes.

PS: 3 quarts low on oil would void your warranty no matter what mods you had.

[Lamonster]

LOL....They said Oh Well, 3 times. 2 blew apart on the dyno, trying for the max horsepower I could get. Now, with JE forged pistons, Falicon crank and rods, APE head studs etc, she is nearly bullet-proof. Oh, Doc and I had the same mechanic, but not engine builders.

You and I both know if that motor was built right for a turbo he would still be putting miles on it today. I had this conversation with him many times and there's no changing the rules of engagement when you start playing hard with blowers and turbo's. Sure you can turn down the boost and get away with modest gains but when you crank it up something has to give. When I was building blower kits for the Valk I started with 5 psi of boost and then played with 10 psi and 8 psi and 7 turned out to be the magic number if you wanted to run stock pistons. Even then the lands would take a beating and would wind of cracking and producing a lot of blow-by. That was on a 9:1 motor.

[Firefly]

Here is the Q&A portion of the turbo company's web page for the Spyder in regards if it would damage the Spyder or void warranty.




Q: Will this turbo kit void my warranty?
A: Putting an aftermarket muffler on could void your warranty depending on the circumstances. Our testing shows that the Spyder Rotax engine is a very capable engine to support our kit, but it is up to your local dealer to determine if this bolt-on performance enhancement will void your warranty.

Q: Will the Aerocharger turbo kit "damage" my Spyder?
A: Absolutely not. Many Spyder owners carry multiple people, pull trailers, and mount all kinds of accessories on their bikes. The factory clutch and belt are specifically designed to handle increased load. If you have any concerns about your clutch, Barnett Performance makes an aftermarket clutch kit that your authorized Spyder dealer can install.

Pretty clear to me-- except for the second answer is very misleading. If the Aerocharger will 'absolutely not' damage the Spyder-- then why the need to mention Barnett Performance clutch?

They really shouldn't say 'absolutely not'. They should say that their tests have not shown damage, yadda yadda.....

[bone crusher]

There are lots of mod's between LED's and Turbo: where is the official (in writing)demarcation line? Green filter? Performance air intake? Juice Box?

Hah...I think it's easy to make a determination that an LED light won't destroy your engine whereas a turbo might just do that....

Regardless, this is why manufacturers have their fine print...they have to protect themselves somehow...

I wonder if they'll ever have their own turbo or supercharged spyder sooner or later...

[Bob Denman]

They're a great company that sells high-quality components... But they're still gonna say whatever they can to get you to buy!!
The only thing that can sell a bad product is good marketing... In this case, and in defense of Aerocharger; Maybe it wasn't their product but the application that was being attempted???

[Firefly]

Although a turbo addition is a fairly big change, does ANYONE know ( facts only) what modifications void the warranty on our Spyders? I have never seen anything in print from BRP officials as to what we can/can not do. JB Pro's, Power Commanders, Green filters, Evoluzion intakes, different than BRP oil usage, 02 Modifiers, exhaust changes? Just curious in case I have issues later down the line.

You won't see anything specific listed on warranties like this. Fact of the matter is that they cannot just 'void' a warranty because of a 3rd party add-on - we have specific laws in the USA about this--- Now--- that being said---- if the 3rd party modification is directly related to the failure---- then they very well may void coverage of that damage. It's on a case by case situation.

Can they void an engine warranty because you added HID's ??? NO.
Could they void the warranty on the ECU or other electronics for adding HID's ??? YES

Would using a green filter or Kewlmetal intake void engine warranty? Doubtful but possible.

Would I expect them to cover my engine even if I'm using my Evo intake and HMF pipe --- yes-- for the most part... but a Turbo is really a different beast as it interacts mechanically (moving parts) with the Spyder-- something my intake and exhaust do not do. Now if they could show one of my mods did cause the damage and explain how it did-- okay--

With a turbo I don't think I'd even try to have them cover it under warranty.

As far as covering due to low oil--- depends on what caused the oil to be low. If a defect in the factory system, drain plug, oil sensor, etc. was found to be the cause of leaking 3 quarts in a short period of time--- then yes-- they should cover it.

I have worn splines on my main shaft. Do I expect them to cover it? YES - because they had belt tension too high for first 1.5 years. I put new sprocket on at my cost -- didn't worry about a $50 part-- but the main shaft is much more expensive to have fixed. Now-- if I had run a 3rd party sprocket and then had shaft spline wear---- I would expect they may NOT cover it.

The damage has to occur first before determining what is and is not going to be covered.

[docdoru]

And now, the question: what's the difference between a turbo and a naturally aspirated Rotaxengine piston melt down?

[ARtraveler]

I have been reading this thread with interest. I'm not mechanically inclined when it comes to engines, turbos and such--so will stay out of the fine points on that.

When I read the initial posting yesterday--there were no replies yet--and I did not want to be the first.

Its very obvious that you are a revered person on S/L. You have done a lot to promote Spyder and have performance tested your vehicles to the max.

I agree with those that say overdoing it can shorten the life of an engine. I believe they overhaul race vehicles after every race--and some of them are $1,000,000 items.

IMO, Spyder was not concieved to be a racing machine--although some have used them for that purpose.

I hope you get your problems solved to your satisfaction.