Motorcyle crash to analyze

[WackyDan]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...pe.KTVT?hpt=C2

Hopefully that link resolves for you guys.

What do you think? I see the obvious.

They blame the driver behind him, but it is obvious from the video that he had a higher speed than the car in front of him and he was closing fast. Looks like he was on the brakes pretty hard from the tire smoke from his bike.

He didn't think quick enough and divert to the left shoulder as insurance.

The driver behind him is still at fault, but his rate of closure to the vehicle in front of him played a big part of the accident. I always leave a ton of room when I'm in rush hour traffic like that.

[arntufun]

IMO even though he locked his brakes up, he would have had plenty of time to stop. The driver that hit him also hit or nearly hit the car in front of the motorcycle. Totally not the cycles fault.

[wyliec]

IMO even though he locked his brakes up, he would have had plenty of time to stop. The driver that hit him also hit or nearly hit the car in front of the motorcycle. Totally not the cycles fault.

Wow, you and I agree on something. Is this a pattern developing?

[wyliec]

He didn't think quick enough and divert to the left shoulder as insurance.

We can arm chair quarterback all we want. I look at it this way. He survived his tour in the M.E.; his reflexes can't be to bad.

But, I do agree looking at the video that there was room to go to the left a little, just a little. However, it's best to not get into that situation. And, the only way to avoid that situation would be to take a different way home.

[arntufun]

Wow, you and I agree on something. Is this a pattern developing?

Finally !!! It must be our type A, New York personalitys !!!

[IWN2RYD]

This is easy. Cager is at fault. Yes the bike locked up his brakes a bit. Just enough to smoke but it looks like not leave marks .

At the end of the day the rear car was clearly closing in on the bike faster than the bike was closing in on the cager in front of him. Probably changing the station on the radio and did not look up until it was to late

Defensive driving is needed whenever driving regardless...

[bikeguy]

I guess there's two ways to look at this crash. If we're assessing blame from a legal standpoint, the car behind is clearly at fault. In my opinion, the driver should be responsible for damages, etc. However, and I think this is Dan's point, if we are looking at ways the accident could have been prevented, there were several things the biker could have done that MIGHT have prevented it.

I have always believed that if you can ride for one year in even moderate traffic and survive, you will have taken the best defensive driver training course in the world. I think most of us will agree that you learn to spot and react to developing situations that you never even notice from a cage. In this case the rider did nothing wrong from a legal standpoint but he was still almost killed and that's the only thing that matters here. Dan's point that he MIGHT have prevented the crash is well taken.

Cotton

[hevnbound]

I like this thread ... it at least gets us thinking.

There is an old saying that goes something like this: "He was right, dead right, as he sped along; but he was just as dead as if he were wrong."
It would be more productive to consider the things the biker might have been able to have done to have pevented the impact or, at least to do something to reduce the severity of an imminent impact!

I remember being in a MSF seminar once when someone asked the question: "If an accident is imminent, what can the biker do to prepare himself for it?" For example: should the biker lay the bike down, should he flatten himself out when he hits the ground like a GP racer does, etc., etc. The MSF instructor failed to respond because their attitude is that there is no accident that cannot be prevented. I guess that is true if you want to stay home!? Although I don't agree with the MSF instructor, he does have a point.

Some of the things that come to my mind as I look at the video is: Always know the traffic around you .... always be on the look out for escape routes - don't get in a situation where you can be trapped ... invest in ABS brakes ... have good (extra) lighting on the rear and front of the bike .... wear bright colored protective gear or, a reflective vest over your coat. While it is good to leave extra distance between you and the vehicle in front of you and, I highly recommend that, unfortunately as the big rig truckers know the cagers will continue to fill up the gap to the point that if you continue leaving the gap long enough you will wind up going backwards!!! As Spyder riders, we also don't have the benefit of squeezing into a narrow lane for an escape route. In the case of the biker in the video, he certainly had two ways to go. Perhaps he froze up when he locked up his rear brake and he target fixated on the vehicle in front of him ... you will go where you look!!!

Another thing that could have contributed to the accident was the possibility of the riders experience - or lack thereof. A lot of returning military purchase their first bike when they return to the states. I can only guess that one reason why they do so is how a bike represents "freedom". The accident rate in the past has been so bad that I think all branches of the military now require service men and women to take rider training. They also have to wear the reflective vest. This is a good thing. We should all make every effort to get additional training: MSF courses, track days, books, videos, practice, etc.

That's my thoughts on this ... will be interested to read others.

OH! BTW, here is a long thread on another biker forum about the same thing. Unfortunately the video has been removed. http://www.stromtrooper.com/off-topi...ear-ended.html Found the video on YouTube: http://youtu.be/JSlW_xJMfJs

[Bob Denman]

This guy definitely smoked his own rear tire up... That could have been JUST enough of a distraction to the cage who hit him... (You see smoke; wonder what the Hell is going on; BAM!!! )
The cage is 100% at fault.. but he's also at least partially the author of his own misfortune here...
Question: Would you rather be right, or alive??

I always leave room in the lane for the bonehead who forgets what the big pedal is for... and I've had some real winners take me up on the offer over the years! One idiot slid to a smoking stop along side of me, and I was right behind a stopped School Bus... (The look on the kids' faces was amazing!)

Just another pushy New Yorker

[bruiser]

I like this thread ... it at least gets us thinking.

There is an old saying that goes something like this: "He was right, dead right, as he sped along; but he was just as dead as if he were wrong."
It would be more productive to consider the things the biker might have been able to have done to have pevented the impact or, at least to do something to reduce the severity of an imminent impact!

I remember being in a MSF seminar once when someone asked the question: "If an accident is imminent, what can the biker do to prepare himself for it?" For example: should the biker lay the bike down, should he flatten himself out when he hits the ground like a GP racer does, etc., etc. The MSF instructor failed to respond because their attitude is that there is no accident that cannot be prevented. I guess that is true if you want to stay home!? Although I don't agree with the MSF instructor, he does have a point.

Some of the things that come to my mind as I look at the video is: Always know the traffic around you .... always be on the look out for escape routes - don't get in a situation where you can be trapped ... invest in ABS brakes ... have good (extra) lighting on the rear and front of the bike .... wear bright colored protective gear or, a reflective vest over your coat. While it is good to leave extra distance between you and the vehicle in front of you and, I highly recommend that, unfortunately as the big rig truckers know the cagers will continue to fill up the gap to the point that if you continue leaving the gap long enough you will wind up going backwards!!! As Spyder riders, we also don't have the benefit of squeezing into a narrow lane for an escape route. In the case of the biker in the video, he certainly had two ways to go. Perhaps he froze up when he locked up his rear brake and he target fixated on the vehicle in front of him ... you will go where you look!!!

Another thing that could have contributed to the accident was the possibility of the riders experience - or lack thereof. A lot of returning military purchase their first bike when they return to the states. I can only guess that one reason why they do so is how a bike represents "freedom". The accident rate in the past has been so bad that I think all branches of the military now require service men and women to take rider training. They also have to wear the reflective vest. This is a good thing. We should all make every effort to get additional training: MSF courses, track days, books, videos, practice, etc.

That's my thoughts on this ... will be interested to read others.

OH! BTW, here is a long thread on another biker forum about the same thing. Unfortunately the video has been removed. http://www.stromtrooper.com/off-topi...ear-ended.html Found the video on YouTube: http://youtu.be/JSlW_xJMfJs

You are correct in that military members must take an MSF course before being able to drive on base. However, not all are required to wear the reflective vest. USAF only requires the reflective line belt when in uniform on a bike. In civilian cloths it's only required to have boots, long sleeve shirt, helmet and gloves to ride on base. Off base gear is up to the individual but must comply with state laws. I do keep two MIL Spec reflective vests in the for night ryding. That's my choice. In regards to the video, I saw it yesterday on WRAL. Scary situation

[Brunswick]

In a rear-ending accident, the vehicle behind is ALWAYS at fault. It doesn't matter how quickly the vehicle in front slowed down, the trailing vehicle must leave enough space to react and stop should the vehicle in front suddenly slam on it brakes (you never know when the vehicle in front of him will slam on its brakes, or a child or cat run dart out onto the road, etc...).

Of course, that's from a purely legal standpoint. From a practical standpoint, you don't want to tempt fate, especially on an MC!

[Bob Denman]

I see a lot of New York folks here with opinions.... Do you think that means that we're more litigation-oriented???
Agreed... Don't tempt fate!

[IWN2RYD]

I like this thread ... it at least gets us thinking.

There is an old saying that goes something like this: "He was right, dead right, as he sped along; but he was just as dead as if he were wrong."
It would be more productive to consider the things the biker might have been able to have done to have pevented the impact or, at least to do something to reduce the severity of an imminent impact!

I remember being in a MSF seminar once when someone asked the question: "If an accident is imminent, what can the biker do to prepare himself for it?" For example: should the biker lay the bike down, should he flatten himself out when he hits the ground like a GP racer does, etc., etc. The MSF instructor failed to respond because their attitude is that there is no accident that cannot be prevented. I guess that is true if you want to stay home!? Although I don't agree with the MSF instructor, he does have a point.

Some of the things that come to my mind as I look at the video is: Always know the traffic around you .... always be on the look out for escape routes - don't get in a situation where you can be trapped ... invest in ABS brakes ... have good (extra) lighting on the rear and front of the bike .... wear bright colored protective gear or, a reflective vest over your coat. While it is good to leave extra distance between you and the vehicle in front of you and, I highly recommend that, unfortunately as the big rig truckers know the cagers will continue to fill up the gap to the point that if you continue leaving the gap long enough you will wind up going backwards!!! As Spyder riders, we also don't have the benefit of squeezing into a narrow lane for an escape route. In the case of the biker in the video, he certainly had two ways to go. Perhaps he froze up when he locked up his rear brake and he target fixated on the vehicle in front of him ... you will go where you look!!!

Another thing that could have contributed to the accident was the possibility of the riders experience - or lack thereof. A lot of returning military purchase their first bike when they return to the states. I can only guess that one reason why they do so is how a bike represents "freedom". The accident rate in the past has been so bad that I think all branches of the military now require service men and women to take rider training. They also have to wear the reflective vest. This is a good thing. We should all make every effort to get additional training: MSF courses, track days, books, videos, practice, etc.

That's my thoughts on this ... will be interested to read others.

OH! BTW, here is a long thread on another biker forum about the same thing. Unfortunately the video has been removed. http://www.stromtrooper.com/off-topi...ear-ended.html Found the video on YouTube: http://youtu.be/JSlW_xJMfJs

A lot of valid points. I think many of us agree with you on nearly all of them. But that was not the question asked and why many of us may not have responded in such a fashion. And why I tossed in the defensive driver point

[Raptor]

They blame the driver behind him, but it is obvious from the video that he had a higher speed than the car in front of him and he was closing fast. Looks like he was on the brakes pretty hard from the tire smoke from his bike. True. Not quite enough gap and closure was a bit too fast as demonstrated by the rear tire lock. But he would have stopped in time.

He didn't think quick enough and divert to the left shoulder as insurance. True. Always look for an escape route and build it into your S.E.E. stategy. It could have been that the rear lockup kept him from doing so.

The driver behind him is still at fault, but his rate of closure to the vehicle in front of him played a big part of the accident. I always leave a ton of room when I'm in rush hour traffic like that. Not sure I totally agree here. The jerk in the cage behind was so incompitent that not only did he/she mow down the rider, he/she continues to plough on into the car ahead, roll right over the bike and continue pushing the car ahead a number of feet beyond the point of impact. It makes you wonder what this person was doing at the time; obviously they were not driving. There did not seem to be any attempt to panic stop at all. Exceptionally stupid.

This video is scary to watch. Had the rider been on a Spyder the outcome would have been no different. What this really points out the most to me is:

-Pay attention to what is going on behind you. The one thing that gives me the most pause when I am in traffic like this (and I am in traffic like this or worse every day) is "what is the driver behind me doing". I have moved over countless times for cages that after observing them I did NOT want behind me. You do have influence over most things that are going on in front of you, but not behind.

-Watch your gap, and always have an escape route if possible. If not, try to position yourself in such a way that you do. I am always planning my moves at least 4-5 moves ahead, No exceptions.

This should be done at all times when you are riding, not just when you think things are getting tense. Situational awareness is what will keep you alive. Thanks Dan for posting this. I think this one of the more important discussions we as a group can have.

[hevnbound]

A lot of valid points. I think many of us agree with you on nearly all of them. But that was not the question asked and why many of us may not have responded in such a fashion. And why I tossed in the defensive driver point

Sorry but I am missing your point? I thought the queston was "What do you think"? That is why I posted what I thought. I really wasn't responding to any other post in this thread except the original one.

And, I totally agree with your "defensive driver" point.

[sabunim5]

I was hit from behind like that once. Luckily the speeds involved were much lower and I was thrown into the median and not into traffic. The high school age girl who hit me was driving in rush hour traffic without a license and chatting with her friend.

[IWN2RYD]

Sorry but I am missing your point? I thought the queston was "What do you think"? That is why I posted what I thought. I really wasn't responding to any other post in this thread except the original one.

And, I totally agree with your "defensive driver" point.

Nope my brain fart. I was reading one post, responded to another and this one at the same time ... I think my A.S.S. kicked in a higher gear today... sigh...

But thanks for your asking... I think I will go make some tea and see if re-runs of Columbo , the original Hawaii 5'o or Rockford Files are on

[boborgera]

The car driver it at fault,
But the message here is, if your in any kind of traffic and riding a motorcycle you stay in left or right tire track,
So if the car behind you can't stop you can escape' But once you lock up your rear tire it doesn't matter you lose all control of the bike.
Locking a rear tire is a sign of inexperience, On two wheels the front brake does 70% of braking power,
The rear brake should used only to scrub off some speed.

[Brunswick]

The car driver it at fault,
But the message here is, if your in any kind of traffic and riding a motorcycle you stay in left or right tire track,
So if the car behind you can't stop you can escape' But once you lock up your rear tire it doesn't matter you lose all control of the bike.
Locking a rear tire is a sign of inexperience, On two wheels the front brake does 70% of braking power,
The rear brake should used only to scrub off some speed.

I never rode a real MC, except around a parking lot. I always felt too vulnerable and never had any desire to ride one on the street. When I bought the Spyder, I had started out looking for a nice little roadster, but anything short of $60k was woefully short on HP, IMHO. Anyway, thank God for the Spyder - just hit the brake pedal as hard as you need to and let the computer do all the thinking. I did some racing in cars, and have never been in an accident, and I enjoy doing controlled fish-tailing in a car, but I will accept the Nanny's authority even if I can't light up the rear tire while pulling out of a driveway.

[WackyDan]

You are correct in that military members must take an MSF course before being able to drive on base. However, not all are required to wear the reflective vest. USAF only requires the reflective line belt when in uniform on a bike. In civilian cloths it's only required to have boots, long sleeve shirt, helmet and gloves to ride on base. Off base gear is up to the individual but must comply with state laws. I do keep two MIL Spec reflective vests in the for night ryding. That's my choice. In regards to the video, I saw it yesterday on WRAL. Scary situation

I was on Columbus AFB in June. If I recall, we were required to wear reflective vests as civilians. Base commander is at liberty to augment the safety rules.

[Bob Denman]

Locking a rear tire is a sign of inexperience, On two wheels the front brake does 70% of braking power,
The rear brake should used only to scrub off some speed.

I missed that one...

[Raptor]

The car driver it at fault,
But the message here is, if your in any kind of traffic and riding a motorcycle you stay in left or right tire track,
So if the car behind you can't stop you can escape' But once you lock up your rear tire it doesn't matter you lose all control of the bike.
Locking a rear tire is a sign of inexperience, On two wheels the front brake does 70% of braking power,
The rear brake should used only to scrub off some speed.

I did not want to be critical of the rider's technique but you are correct, and it is an important point. That is one thing that would be different in that the Spyder has a completely integrated braking system so we don't have to worry as much about which tire has the best contact patch. Braking on a Spyder is almost a no-brainer compared to braking on 2. But when proper technique is applied it's not an issue. And if you dictate pace and use proper lane positioning it's not an issue at all.

Of course there are more times than not that I will power out of a pack rather than stay in a sitiuation that I don't find comfortable. You can tell right away how things are going in the group you are riding in, what people are doing in their cages and so on. If I see one fool on the phone or doodling with something or if the driver behind me has their head down and not paying attention I'm outta there! If you wait for trouble to happen it will eventually find you.

[bruiser]

I was on Columbus AFB in June. If I recall, we were required to wear reflective vests as civilians. Base commander is at liberty to augment the safety rules.

The commander has options. Here at Seymour Johnson the requirement is for the reflective line belt while ryding in uniform. I think the reflective vest is required on base 30 minutes before sunset to 30 minutes after sunrise. I seldom ryde on base at night. But, as I said, I do have vest for night ryding. The MIL SPEC vest has a see through pocket on the front left side for ID cards. Each branch is differeent to. I've been on Marine bases that require a MIL SPEC orange vest for ryding in uniform or civies

[Bitten]

He didn't think quick enough and divert to the left shoulder as insurance.

Just wanted to add my $.02...
I live in Dallas - there actually is no hard shoulder on the (left lanes on the) Tollway...

Also, it was reported somewhere here (on a Dallas news source) that he passed the car that hit him earlier and they were dancing around in the car with their arms in the air like a bunch of kids, which I think they were.

[Magnum Force]

I knew the CR thing would surface sooner or later in this thread. One thing you learn when riding a sport bike or a sport touring bike is that they can stop faster than most anything you have ever riden or been in control of. My C-14 stops so much faster than my wifes spyder that it isn't even comparable. Knowing this the rider must be constantly aware of the vehicles behind him and position himself in the lane to give himself an out if possible to get out of the path of the vehicle behind him that is not going to be able to stop as quickly.
That being said I also wanted to touch on the leaving space ahead also. This is a topic I have discussed with my wife many times. When riding with our group of 4-8 bikes in traffic in multiple lanes what do you do as far as spacing. If you leave too much room the cars keep cuting into the bikes and this can be very dangerous. If you follow too close that can be also dangerous. You have to keep a distance far enough to be safe and hope that no fool in a car is gonna pull the squeeze play and try to cut in front of you. I don't think this is quite the problem with the spyders as 2 wheelers because of the width. On a 2 wheeler the cars think you only take up a couple feet of the lane they will use the rest and cut in.
These are all why I prefer to ride on country roads and to stay off of the freeways. NOT always possible though. All we can do is drive safe and be as alert to things around us as possible.