09 RS - HID question answered

[NancysToy]

Okay wolf check this one out..

So I ordered a few replacement relays the other day that just happened to show up today.

My main relay #1 on the 09 GS was a 30/20. I popped in a 50/30 and my startup issues and VSS issues completely went away. I went out in the cold frozen grass in my front yard and spun the byke around like you wouldn't believe popping the vss light up the wazzoo and instead of the spyder shutting down it was fine.

So my question is.. on the 09's up: should the main relay be a 30/20, 35/20, or a 50/30?

I went over the relay thread on here but **** just confused me more.

Update: 9:00 pm est:
I put the 35/20a in and was able to get a VSS fault when starting. The 50/30 still no issues.
I'm guessing it's safe to keep the 50 in there as the whole circuit should be protected by the fuse in the back box. I will still assume this issue will go away when I put the HID relay harness into play.

...but..this makes me wonder if the stock relay is too low for continuous VSS detection. For example: I know once before when I went through 6 inches of snow in my driveway to get into my garage the VSS kicked in like crazy and shut the whole spyder down. Now I'm wondering if the relay just can't handle the switching required during long periods of VSS. Could the higher relay be more reliable under continuous load over the smaller 30amp one and be a better choice?

A relay is merely a switch. Using one rated for higher amperage is not a problem, as long as it fits, has the same internal configuration, and the coil voltage matches. I suspect maybe your original relay has become weak, or the contacts were pitted. Relays are only good for a certain number of cycles. The higher the current draw, the fewer cycles they last. Added accessories like HID lighting can increase the current draw, especially the inrush (switched) current, and damage the relay contacts...at least in time. A voltage change could cause you to notice a problem where there was none before. The DPS is the largest draw on the system of a running Spyder, so it could have lowered the voltage to the point where the relay cried "Uncle". If you have a 50/30 that fits, you should use it, IMO.

[SpyderWolf]

Thanks for the information on the difference between the relays Scotty. That is good to know, and I honestly didn't have a clue about it.

[WackyDan]

Aside from the risk of overheating and damaging your harness with anything 55 watt and up... What about the ballasts? Are they designed with a wattage range, or do they only specifically work with say 35 watt bulbs? Ie; even if you wanted higher wattage, can the ballasts be the limiting factor anyway?

[SpyderWolf]

Aside from the risk of overheating and damaging your harness with anything 55 watt and up... What about the ballasts? Are they designed with a wattage range, or do they only specifically work with say 35 watt bulbs? Ie; even if you wanted higher wattage, can the ballasts be the limiting factor anyway?

That is a good question as well. The site mine are coming from did not say anything about the wattage of the ballast, but offered the different wattage bulbs with the same ballast. There is another member on here that is running the 100 watt bulbs on his RT: http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=24831 . The type of ballast did not appear to change based on my bulb selection, but there was an increase in price of $10.

[Motavar]

Sorry for the delay. I promised a follow-up to using a harness/relay to wire the fog HIDs directly to the battery but haven't had a chance. I spent the last few days changing the timing belt on my Acura and doing a valve adjustment (all new stuff to me so I took my time).

I have the HID harness and covers off the spyder so I just have to get over there and do it. I should have a follow-up this weekend.

On a different note: I ordered some LEDs for the blinkers and tails. I'll see if I can do a write-up on those when they come in.

[SpyderDen]

That is a good question as well. The site mine are coming from did not say anything about the wattage of the ballast, but offered the different wattage bulbs with the same ballast. There is another member on here that is running the 100 watt bulbs on his RT: http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=24831 . The type of ballast did not appear to change based on my bulb selection, but there was an increase in price of $10.

I have used DDM Tuning for HID's on my Harley and they used the same bulb for 35W and 55W. The only difference is the ballasts with them.

[SpyderWolf]

I have used DDM Tuning for HID's on my Harley and they used the same bulb for 35W and 55W. The only difference is the ballasts with them.

My stuff arrived today. The ballasts are marked as to which ones are the 55 watt and which are the 35 watt, and the bulb packaging is marked with the wattage as well. I figure the 55 watt ballast is what the actual $10 upgrade charge that I paid was for.

It will be a while before I get a chance to install them, as it is currently freezing here right now. I need to decide if I am going to ryde to the dealer for my new DPS this Friday with a temp of about 18 or so, or if I am going to cancel the appointment.

[Machinegunner]

Where can we buy the 50/30 relays?

[Motavar]

Where can we buy the 50/30 relays?

50amp Relay
PRICE: $3.48

Mouser Part #: 893-898H1CHCR1U312VD
Manufacturer Part #: 898H-1CH-C-R1-U03-12VDC
Manufacturer: Song Chuan
Description: General Purpose / Industrial Relays SPDT 50A 12VDC
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...8H1CHCR1U312VD

---

35amp Relay
PRICE: $3.16

Mouser Part #: 893-3011CCR1U0112VDC
Manufacturer Part #: 301-1C-C-R1-U01-12VDC
Manufacturer: Song Chuan
Description: General Purpose / Industrial Relays SPDT 35A 12VDC
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...11CCR1U0112VDC

[Motavar]

1/23/11
Update:

I put a HID relay harness into place for the fog lights and it did not eliminate the HID problem causing the VSS fault and shutting down the spyder. Well, I take it back.. it helped a bit but if I do not press the fog light button fast enough (i press slowly) the VSS kicks and spyder faults.

So right now I'm guessing the circuit where the fog light switch is wired into is just a very sensitive circuit (maybe something that is listening to the canbus watching the VSS stuff every 20ms ?) I guess the turning on of the fog light triggers the relay to cause enough interference (like leo said) to produce the fake VSS fault.

So the goal now is to relocate the fog light switch to another circuit or just wire it into the battery directly.

I'm still amazed the relay didn't solve the problem. I figured once the fogs called for power directly from the battery the problem would have went away.

This seems dangerous. Can a fog light fail and cause a short long enough for the VSS to fault and shut down the engine?

[Motavar]

1/23/11
UPDATE #2

I traced the wires to the fog light button and found it connects to a 4-wire connector. I pulled the connectors apart and cut the 4 wires away from the connector that goes back to the fog light button.

*I wired the black and red wires to the aux hot power lead in the fuse box (the purple/yellow stripe wire).
*The blue wire I ran to ground
*The other black I ran to my HID relay harness HOT (red wire).


Problem solved!

I can now start the spyder with the fogs on


QUESTION: My fog light button is always lit now (when the key is in).
Was the fog light button always lit? or only lit when the fogs were on. I forget :/

[Motavar]

1/23/11
UPDATE #3

I played around with the fog light wired to the aux with the fog HID pulling power from the battery and it was randomly kicking the VSS fault still. Not as much but it was still there.

I upgraded Main Relay #2 to a 35 amp and the problem was less but still there. At this point the battery is low after power on/off on/off so I'm not sure if that is making a difference?

This points to another thread where one of the guys on the forum talked to someone at BRP and they mentioned to use caution when hooking stuff directly to the battery.

Something isnt right..
If Lou is correct and the HID ballast sitting on the frame is causing interference to go through the wires and cause the VSS faults wouldn't this point to a shielding issue with OEM cables?

If its a power demand issue.. then I'm wondering if a 12v capacitor on the power line would solve the HID issue. Still strange.

[Motavar]

To be honest I'm really not concerned over the HIDS.. I'm worried about what can actually trigger the VSS fault and shut the engine down.

When the engine dies you cannot restart the vehicle unless you pull the relays.

This is a dangerous situation if you are on a highway doing 70+ and you encounter loss of power and no ability to restart the engine.

Makes me wonder if interference from a cell phone in a trunk could trip it.. or demand from heated grips trip it... or hit water and too much VSS would overload the relays and trip the engine.

I sense a greater problem for those that mod their spyders.


Edit: I wonder if my issue could be grounding to the frame instead of grounding to the battery.
Research continues.

[SpyderWolf]

To be honest I'm really not concerned over the HIDS.. I'm worried about what can actually trigger the VSS fault and shut the engine down.

When the engine dies you cannot restart the vehicle unless you pull the relays.

This is a dangerous situation if you are on a highway doing 70+ and you encounter loss of power and no ability to restart the engine.

Makes me wonder if interference from a cell phone in a trunk could trip it.. or demand from heated grips trip it... or hit water and too much VSS would overload the relays and trip the engine.

I sense a greater problem for those that mod their spyders.


Edit: I wonder if my issue could be grounding to the frame instead of grounding to the battery.
Research continues.

If you turn the key on and off 3 times, that is usually enough to clear most of the codes that will are displayed and let you start the Spyder again. Every once in a while you will be forced to remove the key from the ignition though. I agree that is definitely not an issue you want to have while running down the highway at 70.

Best of luck getting it sorted out.

[NancysToy]

QUESTION: My fog light button is always lit now (when the key is in).
Was the fog light button always lit? or only lit when the fogs were on. I forget :/

The factory foglight switch is only lit when the foglights are on...if it is correctly wired and is not defective. There were a few faulty installations...mostly reversed polarity for the LED.

[Machinegunner]

We ran separate fused wires for fog lights and head lights. We installed 30AMP relays and triggered then with time delay circuit in the fuse box. This way yhe high voltage shock to the system happens before the motor starts. Our bikes start every time. We also have switches to shut off headlights or foglights independently. If we shut off any HID lights prior to starting the engine and then turn them on after the bike starts, we get all the fault codes. Sometimes the motor will shut down. My thinking is that it is the high voltage spike that computer can't handle, not interferrance. My 2cents worth!

[Motavar]

I agree, I have the same issue.

Voltage?
I'm wondering if something like a 12volt capacitor (used in car stereo installations where they hook them up to stereo AMPs) would cure the situation. But doesn't the HID use less power compared to stock fogs? So why does the HID cause the problem and not stock fogs?

Noise?
Thinking about what Leo said before with interference and seeing a Check Key/ DESS error a few times makes me wonder if the ballast causes interference with the Spyders security when it fires up. So maybe its not a power issue.. maybe its a noise issue to nearby electronics.

If it was a power issue wouldn't my Oxford heated grips, my Stereo with the bass kicking, and the GPS running be drawing even more power that the Spyder would cry fault.

hmm..
I think I may relocate the ballasts this week, grab my volt meter as well, and run a few more tests.

[Motavar]

And spyderwolf..

where is a pic of your 55w lights in place? Pix or it never happened :P
hehe

[Machinegunner]

The voltage spike is the problem. HID lights use way less current when running, but have a very large surge when igniting the arc.

[Motavar]

I just read online that other people with motorcyles have the same problem with running 4 HIDs and their electrical systems are weak. I guess the startup of the HID is 20AMP.

Seems like some places sell kits for this:
http://www.yanashiki.com/HID_Capacit...0capacitor.htm

But one guy was saying for less than $2 at radio shack you can pick up a 470µF 35V capacitor or 4700µF 35V capacitor

[SpyderWolf]

And spyderwolf..

where is a pic of your 55w lights in place? Pix or it never happened :P
hehe

Ask, and you shall receive. Here is a pic of my 55 watt 6,000K headlights, and 35 watt 3,000K fog lights:




I didn't bother turning on any of my extra LED lighting for that shot, as I was in a bit of a hurry to fulfill your request.

I also believe the main issue with the VSS fault is the initial power draw on the battery. Once I let the Spyder warm up, I am able to turn the fog lights on and off without any issues at all. It is an easy thing for me to just be sure I turn off the fog lights before I shut down the Spyder, and then I don't have any issues to worry about.

Nothing has happened to me at speed with the HID lights installed, at least so far.

[Motavar]

Nice man! It's looking badass!

I'll try to hit radio shack tomorrow after work.

[SpyderWolf]

I discovered a very interesting phenomena when trying to make a video using my camera. For some reason the camera does not pick up the 6,000K very well at all, and once I turn on the 3,000K the color totally washes out the others. It is not that way to the naked eye, just the way it worked in the camera. It didn't turn out too bad with a building as a backdrop, but once I went to an open field the camera did not show the headlight color and view, even when putting them on bright. It may be that the distance I was seeing, the other end of 5 acres, was just too far for the camera to pick up.

All I can say is these bad boys light up the road extremely well, and I am very happy I went with the HID.

[SpyderWolf]

Might as well keep all of this in the same thread, here is the video I was talking about above. You can notice a very distinct line where the HID fog lights meet the headlights.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBAUIgc21Ro[/ame]

[reggystan]

Very cool, awesome videos of comparison. Very nice

Might as well keep all of this in the same thread, here is the video I was talking about above. You can notice a very distinct line where the HID fog lights meet the headlights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBAUIgc21Ro