Disappointment

[effgjamis]

Just a question..

Why would one need a aftermarket componet to resolve handling and/or steering issue which is not a DPS problem?

[NancysToy]

Just a question..

Why would one need a aftermarket componet to resolve handling and/or steering issue which is not a DPS problem?

Sometimes it is the only anwer to overcome design shortcomings. As was said, the RT suspension is soft to enhance the ride, like a Cadillac. Unfortunately handling has suffered excessively, and most owners have been forced to raise the suspension pre-load to the max provided, two steps above the recommended for me. That leaves no room for further adjustment. Only the aftermarket can provide a more adjustable shock at this time. Sad, but it is the reality.

[effgjamis]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

But do you think just by changing shocks and adding a sway bar will resolve the handling issue?

Thanks..

[docdoru]

Sometimes it is the only anwer to overcome design shortcomings. As was said, the RT suspension is soft to enhance the ride, like a Cadillac. Unfortunately handling has suffered excessively, and most owners have been forced to raise the suspension pre-load to the max provided, two steps above the recommended for me. That leaves no room for further adjustment. Only the aftermarket can provide a more adjustable shock at this time. Sad, but it is the reality.

Going to max on the suspension pre-load and increasing tire pressure is going to hurt in time the bearings, hub and bushels. See previous GS/RS experience.

[Lamonster]

I'm sorry to hear about your bad case of buyers remorse Bro. I've tried to honest and point out the short comings of the RT along with the good points.

Paint runs, bubbles, and abundant orange peel
I do not have any runs or bubbles in my paint. I do have orange peel but it can only be seen in certain light at certain angles. I don't have a problem with that seeing just about every new car has the same thing. I can see you not being happy with it and the runs and bubbles sounds like you had some bad prep on the paint for sure. They should replace those parts.

I find that the fit and finish is much better than the RS. The panels fit better and they have done a great job at concealing the fasteners.

Then there is the gauge light that repeatedly refuses to work. Of course the gas gauge bounces half the scale, buries itself at the bottom before the low fuel warning comes on
This is a no brainer, they need to replace your gauge and/or your sending unit. That's a bummer but those that have had this problem have had it fixed under warranty.

Even the PE number embroidery is not up to snuff, with uneven stitching that makes the "#0150" appear to say "#0450"
I'm not sure what you can do about and I'm sure if you didn't have these other issues you wouldn't be focused on this at all.

The Spyder ate a spark plug the very first day. It continues to do so. Hard starting, plug fouling, misfiring at highway speeds...and a response from the tech to "never start it unless you are going to ride it"
I have no idea why you and others seem to be fouling plugs on the RT but it does have something to do with starting it and not riding it. This needs to be reported to BRP so they can look into this.

The last straw has been the hideous handling.
My very first post about the RT and several after that has been about the front suspension being too soft. Cranking it up all the way makes a big difference and putting Elka's on pretty much solved the problem for me.

I will say that the RT does not cut the wind like the RS and it is more prone to getting blown around than the RS. I found that I am not as relaxed in heavy wind as I was on my RS. I am over 4000 miles into this trip right now and I've been in some really bad wind coming across OK, TX, NM, and AZ. I'm towing a trailer so I'm sure that changes the effect somewhat but it is what it is and I just have to deal with it.

I read this post before I took off yesterday and really paid attention to the handling. I was able to pass semi's with one hand at 80 mph with out too much problem. I just have to relax even more so than I do on the RS. For the most part it handles fine with the new shocks for me but it would have been nice if they gave us more adjustment with the stock shocks rather than having to max them out to start with.

I hope you can work through these things with your dealer but I wouldn't hesitate to give Carlo a call and let him know about your concerns.

[scudrunner]

As you can see on the left, I am new to this board and Spyder world. Our RT-S NOW (after last night's ride) has 150 miles on it.
I will say that I'm impressed with the members on this board who are for the most part extremely civil. Just an observation, I hope we don't run off the young tech who posted his first message. He sounds young, energetic and will be a valuable asset.
I can empathize with Scotty's problems having been a first year production vehicle owner in the past. Sometimes, we ARE the beta testers. But if the manufacturer has any sense, they will use those instances as learning opportunities.
My observations on our RT-S (just from hearsay mind you, I don't have my motorcycle endorsement yet, so I can't sit in the pilot's seat! ). I've noticed the "wobble", "wandering", "track hunting" or what ever you want to call it and find it to be slightly alarming, especially when it starts to oscillate or wiggle. It appears to be the Spyder version of the Dutch Roll found on swept wing airplanes. I have not had a chance to attempt to dampen the wiggle, but I'm hoping that by stiffening the front end and adding a little air to the tires, it will decrease to the point of acceptability. Some one said it may be related to sidewall flex. By adding pressure to the front tires, that should stiffen the sidewalls a little.
Thanks to all, the research has been immensely valuable. What did we do before internet? It was called the library and Google was the Dewey Decimal System. If you found the one book that had references to your problem, you were ecstatic!

p.s. does anyone know the average age of the RT-S owner? Seems to me from the pictures, we are an older lot. Well, I am anyway. Nice to have the fresh voice of ROTXMECH on here.

[boborgera]

ROTXMECH [/B]on here.

95 Going on 25

[nonseven]

I find all this disheartening. Based on this new input, I'm putting the purchase of the RT-S I was looking at on hold. I can't see spending $26k on a crap-shoot.

Maybe I'll just buy that Harley V-Rod I had my eye on.

[SC_DOC]

After reading the above posts, I guess I should consider myself lucky that my problems, while very frustrating and time consuming, have been relatively minor. I had a series of fault lights throwing the bike into limp mode and spent 3 hours at the dealer while service tried to figure out what caused it. They could not find anything wrong, so I left. The next day I got a DPS fault that put into limp mode, but this time I cleared it by stopping, killing engine, removing key, and restarting. Again back to the dealer for 4 hours while they talked to BRP, tested pressure sensors, brake light switch, etc. , test drove for 25 miles, not finding or reproducing the problem. I go in tomorrow for the 600 mile service and hope I don't encounter anything else. This seems to be some sort of virtual problem, rather than a real one cause by some electronic glitch, because when I got the DPS fault and limp mode, the steering was fine. No drift, no stiffness, etc.

If anyone has any ideas that I could pass on to the dealer, jump right in.

[grumpybob]

p.s. does anyone know the average age of the RT-S owner? Seems to me from the pictures, we are an older lot. Well, I am anyway.

Old enough to remember and driven a Ford Edsel- one time.

[retired1]

Scudrunner;
If I recall correctly there was a poll done on ages of owners, I don't remember the post date.
Riding the RTS does take a little more concentration, but to me the amenities more than make up for any of the perceived shortcomings of the bike. Just my opinion.

[Dwight]

Scotty,

I think you are absolutely correct about the handling. I've adjusted my front shocks up to max settings, added air to the front tires, and adjusted rear suspension to max also. Two up, doesn't help much. I'm at the point of seeing if front alignment needs work. The handling on this thing reminds me of a dirt track car with toe in. It's all over the place! I don't know what the civilian term for it is but I suspect we may also be dealing with bump steer issues. I am also a long time rider, 46 years. I've owned 3 conventional trikes, Honda and two Harleys, with a total trike mileage of 70K miles. I also have many thousands of miles on sidecars. Total mileage during my lifetime is close to 300K. I've also spent a lot of time racing, mostly dirt, but I have won a few pavement races. My race vehicles were built by me. That doesn't make me an expert but it helps to put things in perspective. I don't think I've ever driven or ridden anything that requires more concentration than this RT. My other trikes could be ridden in a pretty relaxed condition. The RT requires 100% of your attention. It hunts and wanders even on good roads. I thought with the 2 in front setup that it would be more stable, such is not the case. I’m also disappointed in the RT. I will install the sway bar as soon as it’s available, I don’t think that’s going to be a cure all but it will surely help. The next step is to check the alignment, all three wheels, and maybe experiment with different settings. My race cars, even on pavement, liked just enough toe out to be measurable – maybe that’s what I need on the RT? I have my Harley/CSC for sale, I hate to admit it but I’m having second thoughts.

I’ve had no other serious problems, well I guess the “yaw sensor” was but that was corrected by the dealer. No real complaints overall other than the handling. We still love the concept but if I can’t get the handling any better the Harley may come off the for sale list.

Dwight

[WaltH]

Scotty:

I hope to see you in Cuba (Missouri), and if I do, I want you to ride my GS/RS so you can feel what it is like to have car tires on the front wheels. I love the way my Spyder goes around a corner. It is rock solid. An expensive sports car could not do better. It surely was not that way in the beginning. A big part of the improvement comes from the car tires. Of course, I have done other things as well, including RT shocks and the sway bar.

I understand you are having handling problems that go beyond just cornering, but I don't want you to overlook the potential of changing tires. This is an inexpensive modification. I also understand that the GS/RS has different aerodynamic characteristics.

If I don't see you in Cuba, I am sure I will see you at the "Homecoming".

[scudrunner]

Old enough to remember and driven a Ford Edsel- one time.

So THAT'S why you are grumpy!!!

[boborgera]

Scotty,

I think you are absolutely correct about the handling. I've adjusted my front shocks up to max settings, added air to the front tires, and adjusted rear suspension to max also. Two up, doesn't help much. I'm at the point of seeing if front alignment needs work. The handling on this thing reminds me of a dirt track car with toe in. It's all over the place! I don't know what the civilian term for it is but I suspect we may also be dealing with bump steer issues. I am also a long time rider, 46 years. I've owned 3 conventional trikes, Honda and two Harleys, with a total trike mileage of 70K miles. I also have many thousands of miles on sidecars. Total mileage during my lifetime is close to 300K. I've also spent a lot of time racing, mostly dirt, but I have won a few pavement races. My race vehicles were built by me. That doesn't make me an expert but it helps to put things in perspective. I don't think I've ever driven or ridden anything that requires more concentration than this RT. My other trikes could be ridden in a pretty relaxed condition. The RT requires 100% of your attention. It hunts and wanders even on good roads. I thought with the 2 in front setup that it would be more stable, such is not the case. I’m also disappointed in the RT. I will install the sway bar as soon as it’s available, I don’t think that’s going to be a cure all but it will surely help. The next step is to check the alignment, all three wheels, and maybe experiment with different settings. My race cars, even on pavement, liked just enough toe out to be measurable – maybe that’s what I need on the RT? I have my Harley/CSC for sale, I hate to admit it but I’m having second thoughts.

I’ve had no other serious problems, well I guess the “yaw sensor” was but that was corrected by the dealer. No real complaints overall other than the handling. We still love the concept but if I can’t get the handling any better the Harley may come off the for sale list.

Dwight

Just wondering' Why didn't the few that have free rides mention how bad the handling is, and not just sugar coat it?
[i guess the free part answers that]
How many company's can sell 25thou.$ cars and you have to add your own suspension parts to make it handle right and stay in business?

[fredace]

FWIW, I've switched to Elka shocks and that has made a very large difference in the handling and cornering. As a matter of fact, this weekend I had a passenger for the first time and I actually thought the RT-S handled better two-up.
It's too bad that you'd need to spend like $700 for different shocks, but they did do the trick.

[NancysToy]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

But do you think just by changing shocks and adding a sway bar will resolve the handling issue?

Thanks..

Unsure of that, as yet, and unfortunately there is only one way to find out. One thing is for certain...sure can't hurt.

[grumpybob]

So THAT'S why you are grumpy!!!

Don't want to interrupt the importance of this thread, but that is just one of many reasons.

[Roaddog2]

Scotty, definitely get it to your dealer for the gauge and the plugs problem, hopefully they can make it right. Maybe call Carlo and see if you can get new panels that have a decent paint job as well, no way a new PE should have those kinds of problems in the paint. Don't know what to say about the handling, maybe, Ken's sway bar would be just the ticket to make it handle the way you want, just throwing ideas at you. Good luck my friend, looking forward to spyder rides with you this year.

just found a slight flaw on my gas tank in Decaling under clear coat new tank ordered no questions asked Stay right on there butts Scotty and get paint and all your concerns fixed.

[NancysToy]

No buyer's remorse, just serious disappointment, Lamont. I want the RTS with all my heart...I just want it to be predictable and safe. Everything that the GS/RS is, handling-wise and relaxed riding-wise, my RTS is not! That is a blow to me. You know I love the Spyder. As was said, this thing requires 100% concentration. It has also been unpredictable. My experience mixed in with the semis on the highway was unnerving...even to an old racer like me. Not a lock-to-lock wobble, but several inches in each direction. You certainly could not one hand it. Shot me onto the opposite shoulder when I pulled out to pass, and I barely retained control. Worst I have ever ridden in thousands and thousands of miles. I am no rookie!

The bad brakes are the clincher. It is unsafe at highway speeds in this condition. I don't want to b***h, get sympathy, or throw rocks. I just want a safe, sane ride, like the one the RS has provided. We'll see what the dealer comes up with, but they have ignored the paint, plugs, and gauge thus far, so I really don't expect miracles. I will spend what is necessary (reluctantly), and either cure it or park it. It is nobody's worry but my own. I still think a punch list of nearly 25 items on a luxury tourer is a bit much, however. I don't think it is wrong to be disappointed...or to say so.

[Roaddog2]

Scotty, it's very sad to hear you say these things. I remember the excitement and anticipation you had for your new RT. With you having one of the most calm, level, and fair demeanors on this board, I'm sure it wasn't easy for you to post this.

But I also believe that this is a fair assessment. With the wealth of experience that you have, I believe every word. And fair is fair, so even the undesirable should be reported.

I agree completely with you. A nearly $30,000 machine should not need more money thrown at it to attempt to overcome ''poor workmanship, poor performance, and bad handling". Shame on BRP

I see that some responders here would have you accept the shortcomings, and chalk it up to it being a new product...... If that's the case, BRP should have sold it at an introductory price. But they didn't, and you are correct to not accept it as such. I guess it's much easier to look past the shortcomings of the product when it's not your $30,000 that you are offering advice about.

My advice is to talk publicly, frequently, and loudly about your displeasure. BRP will hear it and will have to do something. If there is no public awareness, how does it make things better for the next guy? Giving the manufacturer a 'free ride', or 'the benefit of the doubt' only empowers them to continue their mediocrity.

You can bet Carlo will be calling you now, trying to smooth the ripples, and for your sake I hope he can. But after spending the $$, and raising these points, I hope he doesn't talk you , or any other like-minded RT buyers for that matter, into settling for accepting these shortfalls.....

could have not said it better

[frank3]

WOW. After reading all of this, I'm very concerned. I have great respect for Scotty and his opnions. If ever I have any questions concerning my RT, I always look for Scotty's reply or his posts about those topics. I'm a novice ridder but really enjoy my Rt. I have also noticed the wind effects on the Rt and issues following a semi. I cross a lot of that off to the wider front track on the RT. Needless to say, with the really wide front track, alignment is vitally important. I haven't noticed much "wandering" with mine on better paved surfaces but it gets real itchy when on well worn highway surfaces. It's always looking for the track and never quite matches the one worn in the pavement. I am also disappointed with the paint, although, I don't have any sags or bubbles, I come from a auto facotry background and know paint quality is easier to acheive than demonstrated on my RT. I pray Carlo has read all of this and is just as alarmed as I am. I would really hate to lose Scotty's input and advise concerning the RT. Scotty, your problems will be on my mind for a long time. I hope BRP is listening and responds quickly. BTW, I think you need to find another dealer.

[M2Wild]

FWIW, I've switched to Elka shocks and that has made a very large difference in the handling and cornering. As a matter of fact, this weekend I had a passenger for the first time and I actually thought the RT-S handled better two-up.
It's too bad that you'd need to spend like $700 for different shocks, but they did do the trick.

Unsure of that, as yet, and unfortunately there is only one way to find out. One thing is for certain...sure can't hurt.

Too bad BRP won't pickup the tab for the fix.

[bcspyder]

Scotty, sorry to hear about your problems so far. The first time I saw the RT I wondered about the suspensions capability to handle the added weight and height. Without a way better suspension I thought it might be too top heavy. My main concern is the lack of service from your dealer. That they glossed over things or ignored your concerns is totally unacceptable. You do not seem to be the yelling and screaming type so the dealer should be doing his best to make you happy. Unfortunately, I think this is the reason for alot of unhappiness with Spyder ownership and the difficulty nailing down the steering issues. The dealer network is not very good. I am not sure if this has been discussed but I wonder the percentage of dealers that also carry motorcycle lines. If you are at a Can Am specific dealer those techs have only experienced off road machines that when things go wrong it is inconvenient but not critical. Things going wrong at 60 mph can be VERY critical! Hopefully we can continue to have techs contribute here.

[csmead]

So sad to hear your troubles. Please join me in a private "pity party" moment; for your RT and the loss of my RS. Fortunately or unfortunately my RT is on the way. Let us hope that my RT has less personal issues than my RS, because I would like to make up for a year's lost riding time!
Keep us informed with any updates or patches they provide you with!