Rough Idle after engine reaches 3-4 bars

[SpyderByter]

The idle is nice and steady as she warms up, 1350-1400 RPMS. When it reaches 3-4 bars, it starts to sputter every minute or so. The problem is only at idle, and when trying to take off in first gear. Anything over 4000 RPMs, the engine is strong, responsive and smooth.

Here is what I have done that may be affecting it:

1. I put in a new air filter over the winter. It was the STP equivilent of the stock Purolator. I pulled that, it smelled of raw fuel. I replaced it with a new Purolator A-13192 (Stock) Ran the bike, same problem.

2.New iridum spark plugs. According to Carlos, they will not increase horse power but they are ok to use and should last longer. I pullled the plug from the rear cylinder and after 2 tanks of gas, it looks fine. Just in case, I applied thermal grease to the original plug, put that in and ran it. Same thing. I still have to pull the airbox to get to the front plug, so at that point, I will check that plug.

3. I had pullled the airbox, cleaned out all the oil, and installed Ken's filter between the airbox and the breather. For those of you not familiar with this here is a thread with a picture:
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=15589

I don't think this filter setup is causing a problem. Others are running it. But as I think of systems that start to kick in as the engine gets to high temps, this seems to fit. (water vapor will enter the airbox at that point.)

I checked all the vacuum lines on the left side of the throttle body. I dont see any loose, nor do I see any shiny tubes without a tube on it.

Besides loosening a vacuum line, could I have caused a leak between the throttle body and the airbox? The manual makes no mention of appying any sealant between the two. And it is only the idle that is affected, otherwise it runs great.

I have had the first update done on my 2008 SM5, but not the second. After that and before I parked it for the Winter there was alway a hesitation around the 3-4 thousand RPM range. Can it be related to that, just in a lower range?

Maybe a temp sensor that just happened to go bad as it sat?

I see mention of an Idle Air Control Valve in another post. Anyone know the function of this, and it's relation to engine temp?

In the manual I see it has an Idle By-pass Valve, but it does not describe how it works.

Also I had removed and reinstalled the Hindle over the winter. Can an exaust leak cause a problem at idle only?

[NancysToy]

Without being there to diagnose your problem, I would consider two possibilities. First, you should also check the other plug, to see that it is not fouled. A single fouled plug can cause similar problems. More likely, you need the second update. You already had the surging and hesitation caused by the steering recall update, then you added the Hindle and leaned the mixture further. You may easily have passed the point where the engine will run well with the new combination. The fresh filter would only add to those difficulties. Get the second update and you should see an improvement.

[SpyderByter]

Scotty,

The Hindle was on before the first update. I had just removed it when I put on the new rear tire.

Frankly, I am trying to do everything I can not to have to bring it to the dealer. Great guys, but I am afraid once they apply the second update, I will develop other problems, namely DPS. Should it develop safety issues, they won't be able to release it to me until they are resolved, and as you have seen with others, it can be weeks or even months. My only update was done Sept/09. That was before the steering update, right?

I am trying to resolve this myself if I can, with the help of others here. Meanwhile I will learn even more about the machine.

[Some Guy]

I had the same problem after the first update. The second update fixed it. I am (and was) running with a Green Filter and the Micron exhaust.

[docdoru]

I had the same problem after the first update. The second update fixed it. I am (and was) running with a Green Filter and the Micron exhaust.

go for the 2nd update.

[LDFIREWORKS]

2nd update

[effgjamis]

Hummm.... let me think....... ahhhh !!!! get the 2nd update as suggested..

Yes I don't know what I am thinking...

[NancysToy]

Scotty,

The Hindle was on before the first update. I had just removed it when I put on the new rear tire.

Frankly, I am trying to do everything I can not to have to bring it to the dealer. Great guys, but I am afraid once they apply the second update, I will develop other problems, namely DPS. Should it develop safety issues, they won't be able to release it to me until they are resolved, and as you have seen with others, it can be weeks or even months. My only update was done Sept/09. That was before the steering update, right?

I am trying to resolve this myself if I can, with the help of others here. Meanwhile I will learn even more about the machine.

The update you received should have been the steering recall. I am unaware of any prior updates, and that was well after the notification letter went out, so if your Spyder was serviced, they would have mandatorily done the recall update by September. That update also changed purge valve operation and some engine operating parameters, making many Spyders experience surging, and other performance issues. These were magnified by intake/exhaust system modifications. The second update was issued to correct these performance problems.

Due to the sudden increase in your difficulties, and the timing coincidental with removing your airbox, it is very possible you knocked off an essential vacuum line or a sensor or solenoid wire. As I recall, there is a well hidden vacuum line on the throttle body, that is fairly easily knocked off or damaged. You could also have damaged a plug wire, or knocked it loose. The best answer as to whether either is the case, is remove the airbox again and check carefully, including removing and inspecting the spark plug. You should also look over the entire purge system, including the purge valve solenoid and the idle air solenoid, to make sure all wires are connected and the hoses are intact.

Because your problem does not occur until the engine is warm, I still suspect purge system involvement. That means that either you knocked one of those lines or wires loose, or you need the second update, due in part to the fresh filter and the Hindle. Good luck in your troubleshooting.

[SpyderByter]

Ok, airbox comes back off so I can check the front plug and apply the heat paste. Then I will look again at all vacuum lines and check elecrical connections around the throttle body.

Then she goes to the shop for the second update. I will post the results.

Some Guy and Docdoru, did it fix the rough idle problem without causing any other issues?

[docdoru]

Some Guy and Docdoru, did it fix the rough idle problem without causing any other issues?

Yes, but IMO also introduce the DPS debacle...

[docdoru]

You should also look over the entire purge system, including the purge valve solenoid and the idle air solenoid, to make sure all wires are connected and the hoses are intact.

Good advice:

[SpyderByter]

Yes, but IMO also introduce the DPS debacle...

That is what has me worried about taking it in for the update. The engine was nice and smooth and the steering was fine before I brought it in for the update. After the update, the engine was rough at anything below 4000 RPMs.

[NancysToy]

That is what has me worried about taking it in for the update. The engine was nice and smooth and the steering was fine before I brought it in for the update. After the update, the engine was rough at anything below 4000 RPMs.

That's why you need the second update. It fixed what the first screwed up. That was its purpose. You may also have to replace some purge valve components. The first update exposed a few failures there. The effects of these were magnified by the steering recall update. Before you leap, however, make sure you didn't knock something loose when you removed the airbox.

[sylblk]

if all is connected,leave skins off and run the engine until problem occurs in dark room and check for arcking at spark plug boots and wires, also listen for arcking noise. if all ok, replace purge valve. recommend disconnecting battery overnight, reconnecting and idling until normal temp, drive hard to reset learning. drive for a week and recheck.

[RShrimp]

You should not be afraid to take it in now. There were parts availability issues in the past but these have been corrected. I have beed told that nearly all parts are available out of Atlanta. They were coming from Canada a while back and shipping delays, customs issues, ect.

Should be able to get just about any part now in a matter of days.

[SpyderByter]

if all is connected,leave skins off and run the engine until problem occurs in dark room and check for arcking at spark plug boots and wires, also listen for arcking noise. if all ok, replace purge valve. recommend disconnecting battery overnight, reconnecting and idling until normal temp, drive hard to reset learning. drive for a week and recheck.

Didn't think to do that, thanks.

[PCBeachBum]

That is what has me worried about taking it in for the update. The engine was nice and smooth and the steering was fine before I brought it in for the update. After the update, the engine was rough at anything below 4000 RPMs.

If you do have a problem with the DPS after they do the 2nd update, you can still have it repaired under your warranty. Waiting and having your warranty expire, unless you also have an extended one, is a large expense. The cost of replacing the DPS unit is $847.00 plus labor.

I know that because of this problem that BRP is having with the DPS, they should cover it but, they haven't said they would. So having it done while your Spyder is still under warranty, is not as bad as paying out of pocket.

[SpyderByter]

Update:

Brought it to the dealer, the tech changed the purge valve and it is running back to normal now. It has been cool here in CT, but in city driving the temp has got up to 5 bars and it is running much better than before.

Thanks for all the help.

[M2Wild]

Update:

Brought it to the dealer, the tech changed the purge valve and it is running back to normal now. It has been cool here in CT, but in city driving the temp has got up to 5 bars and it is running much better than before.

Thanks for all the help.

Did the dealer also do the 2nd update? That might be the real fix.

I am in the exact same boat as you. DPS update in the fall and Spyder ran like crap once warmed up. Now I pluged up the vent tube on the evap can and it ran fine.

[SpyderByter]

Did the dealer also do the 2nd update? That might be the real fix.

I am in the exact same boat as you. DPS update in the fall and Spyder ran like crap once warmed up. Now I pluged up the vent tube on the evap can and it ran fine.

I looked at the paperwork and it made no mention of an update. The tech was not there when I picked it up, but when I dropped it off, I told him I was nervous about the DPS issues that seemed to pop up after the update to the update. I will go up sometime soon and ask him. It is running much better.

[SpyderWolf]

I looked at the paperwork and it made no mention of an update. The tech was not there when I picked it up, but when I dropped it off, I told him I was nervous about the DPS issues that seemed to pop up after the update to the update. I will go up sometime soon and ask him. It is running much better.

Most likely the update was applied. Both mine and my wife's Spyders had the surging issue between 3,000 and 4,000 RPM and the update smoothed all of that out. It was actually called an Engine Optimization Bulletin or something close to that.

Whatever the case, I am glad to hear it is running better for you now.

[Wildcat48]

I figured out the problem why the spyders run rough when hot. Between the small enclosed space the engine is in plus the scary part. The way the fuel lines run that is the issue. The fuel line has only wire loom covering it to sheild the heat from the engine. The line running to the carb has a filter in it but no sheilding from the heat. The return line from the carb goes directly above the exhaust about 3 inches away and no sheilding. The gas tank only sits 3 inches behind the rear exhaust manifold. On old cars there used to be a problem with vapor lock which is what the engine sounds like when it gets hot and that is where the fuel smell comes from. The fuel lines need to be sheilded better. After doing some test I found that when the engine starts to run rough I stopped and found out the gas temp in the tank was 136 degrees. The boiling point of gasoline is 100 to 350 degrees. The fuel lines were even hotter.
On old race cars they sheilded the fuel lines with aluminum foil to resolve the problem with vapor lock. I started to sheild mine and I am starting to see an improvment I can ride further in hot temps before having an issue. My next move is to leave the foil on and wrap with heat sheilding wrap also adding more high temp insulation on the fuel tank I am shure would help the issue.
Its hard to beleive all the technology that went into building the spyder could not figure out this easy fix to many peoples problem

[boborgera]

I figured out the problem why the spyders run rough when hot. Between the small enclosed space the engine is in plus the scary part. The way the fuel lines run that is the issue. The fuel line has only wire loom covering it to sheild the heat from the engine. The line running to the carb has a filter in it but no sheilding from the heat. The return line from the carb goes directly above the exhaust about 3 inches away and no sheilding. The gas tank only sits 3 inches behind the rear exhaust manifold. On old cars there used to be a problem with vapor lock which is what the engine sounds like when it gets hot and that is where the fuel smell comes from. The fuel lines need to be sheilded better. After doing some test I found that when the engine starts to run rough I stopped and found out the gas temp in the tank was 136 degrees. The boiling point of gasoline is 100 to 350 degrees. The fuel lines were even hotter.
On old race cars they sheilded the fuel lines with aluminum foil to resolve the problem with vapor lock. I started to sheild mine and I am starting to see an improvment I can ride further in hot temps before having an issue. My next move is to leave the foil on and wrap with heat sheilding wrap also adding more high temp insulation on the fuel tank I am shure would help the issue.
Its hard to beleive all the technology that went into building the spyder could not figure out this easy fix to many peoples problem

The Spyder doesn't have a Carburetor it's Fuel injected.
And i doubt you can have vapor lock with FI.
And yes i would rap my fuel lines [Drag cars with carbs] and also run it though a cool can.

[COOLMACHINE]

my only thought is bad spark plug wires. Mine ran rough at idle and at take-off.
both wires were bad and arching.