Agree or Disagree

[Way2Fast]

I wondered this, originally, when I first heard the story... facts that came out of it don't answer all of the questions - but, he was a long time CHP officer, in a rental Lexus with 3 additional family memebers in the car... no training or experience with the vehicle. It was a new one with the ON button instead of an ignition key, and I now learn that one had to push and hold it for more than 3 seconds to turn the engine off. I can understand how, especially with no training in the operation, and in the heat of the moment, this could cause problems trying to kill the engine in a panic situation. It was one of the family members, not the driver, that was on the cell phone with 911 operators towards the end of the ordeal.

I don't know why he couldn't put the car in neutral (I would certainly expect someone with his CHP experience to have tried), but let me ask all of us SE5 owners out there - how would WE put our Spyder in neutral in a panic situation? Answer? - WE CAN'T. We can't pull in the clutch... and we must downshift through first to get to neutral, AND the computer won't let us downshift if it will over-rev the engine (which IS, btw, my biggest complaint about the SE5 - I'd like a way to go straight to neutral). I posit the Lexus in question may have had electronic paddle shifters and would not allow downshifting to get into neutral at that speed? Of course, we have the kill switch... The Lexus didn't have that luxury. Perhaps it should?

This was in my town, so there was a lot of coverage. My heart goes out to those that he and his 3 family members left behind.

You bring up some good points. People living in other parts of the country seem to have gotten an abbreviated description of the incident. When all the facts are presented it's easier to understand why the vehicle speed wasn't able to be controlled.

[boborgera]

Don't get it whats wrong with just stepping on the brakes?
That alone will slow you down if not stop you, then you can get your head together and put it in neutral.
Also if the gas pedal is sticking shouldn't it stay at the speed you were going and not accelerating?

[j45p3r]

Don't get it whats wrong with just stepping on the brakes?
That alone will slow you down if not stop you, then you can get your head together and put it in neutral.
Also if the gas pedal is sticking shouldn't it stay at the speed you were going and not accelerating?

Brakes, at least on a car, are not enough to over come an engine at full throttle.

[Tom in NM]

Generally, I feel that electronics and computers that focus on the basics of vehicle performance ( efficiency, stability, performance, reliability, safety ) are plusses. Fuel injection, power steering, electronically assisted transmissions and Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) are good examples. My Jeep also has a All Wheel Drive system that works magic on ice, water and loose sand and gravel that greatly improves handling and control. Headlight, windshield wiper, and tire pressure systems also can assist the driver in operating the vehicle.

I think the problems with electronics and systems seem to arise when they take over or supplant the operator's skill sets or distances them from the basic acts of managing and controlling the vehicle. Skills require training, practice and constant use - otherwise, we lose them - so besides losing control, we lose ability.

Here are some of the luxury and convenience electronics that I think are problems;

• Idiot Lights instead of gauges or specific readouts. They are "In-specfic" and hide the normal operating ranges of the vehicle ( pressures, temperatures, rates, fluid levels ). I belong to the school of "You Cannot Manage/Control What You Cannot Measure". And, I think the majority of people ignore them.
• CruiseControl (just set the speed and sit back and relax)
• Parking Systems (you may be able to get your car to park itself, but just try to park someone else's)
• Entertainment Accessories

As far as the Spyder goes - I could do without (electronic) power steering. There are probably mechanical steering systems that would balance the effort/control/reliability/cost equation better.

I would like to see a more intelligent dashboard display. Three bars for engine temp? What is the temperature? What is a good temperature? Is that Oil or Water?

A scrolling error code of "check engine"? Check it for what? Oil? Seals and gaskets? Water? Why not give a code and tell you what it is?

Limp Mode? Why? What is wrong? I have not had this, but when a high percentage of the reports here show that turning the Spyder off and then turning it back on "clears the problem" or replacing a light bulb removes it, well, that is . Dangerous , to me. Extremely poor programming or system implementation. You are given a problem, but no information to act on and no ability to "override" or manage it.

The Vehicle Stability System (VSS)? That works for me - it keeps the Spyder in its physical control and operational limits. I have only felt it a few times, but its activation was greatly appreciated.

I know gears, but am no gear-head. I know programming and systems (realtime and computer) and know their advantages of control/performance enhancement and their downsides of unintended consequences and complexity. At this point in my life, I would rather only rely on systems that are focused on performance and control and remove those that may be nice to have, but are debilitating assists.

Tom

[SpyderGirl]

Exactly my thoughts. You can't program common sense and good diriving skills into a vehicle.

[boborgera]

Brakes, at least on a car, are not enough to over come an engine at full throttle.

You'll be surprised how power full brakes are.
They might not get you to zero but they'll slow you down so you'll stop panicking and put it in neutral.

[jgwoods]

Brakes, at least on a car, are not enough to over come an engine at full throttle.

I disagree.
Brakes can overcome any car engine at full throttle.

I am curious as to how Toyota's fixing gas pedals is going to resolve the claim people make that they have no brakes when their car is "running away" on them.

[jgwoods]

As for what to do if your SE5 soemhow gets stuck at full throttle when there is no way to put it in neutral; Using the kill switch and leaving the ignition in the on position should leave us with the engine off, but all other features working- anti lock brakes, DPS, etc. so it should be fairly easy to coast to a halt.

I do wonder if that is the case- that all the systems continue to work when activating the kill switch at speed.
I may have to try that...

[boborgera]

I disagree.
Brakes can overcome any car engine at full throttle.

I am curious as to how Toyota's fixing gas pedals is going to resolve the claim people make that they have no brakes when their car is "running away" on them.

Probably people panic, forget there's a brake pedal and keep stomping the gas pedal to loosen it. Just like some Audi drives were doing a few years ago.

[j45p3r]

I disagree.
Brakes can overcome any car engine at full throttle.

I am curious as to how Toyota's fixing gas pedals is going to resolve the claim people make that they have no brakes when their car is "running away" on them.

Not always. C&D tested the Camry and from 100MPH and they were able to slow the car to 10MPH, but it would only be a matter of time IMO before the brakes heated up and the car would begin to accelerate again.

[NancysToy]

I disagree.
Brakes can overcome any car engine at full throttle.

I am curious as to how Toyota's fixing gas pedals is going to resolve the claim people make that they have no brakes when their car is "running away" on them.

With the Toyotas, at least, it was proven in tests that the brakes could only temporariliy overcome the throttle, and soon heated up and failed. Even disc brakes all around can only take so much.

[jgwoods]

The current Car and Driver disagrees with you in some ways- it says you ought to step ont he the brakes once time and hold them, and that the increased stopping distance between closed throttle and full throttle is only a few feet from 70 mph, and not quite 100 feet from 100mph.

The car will stop. It's all driver error and bad training.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...tion-tech_dept

[NancysToy]

The current Car and Driver disagrees with you in some ways- it says you ought to step ont he the brakes once time and hold them, and that the increased stopping distance between closed throttle and full throttle is only a few feet from 70 mph, and not quite 100 feet from 100mph.

The car will stop. It's all driver error and bad training.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...tion-tech_dept

Actually, it depended on the car, and they did recommend both feet on the brake pedal, which most drivers may not think to do. All cars slowed in their tests but one did not stop completely. Further application of that brake probably would have resulted in complete brake failure. For the high powered Roush car, which went three times the normal stopping distance, that situation could easily kill you. Stretching out 100 feet into a football field could put you into a wall. Bottom line, it should be instinctive in these situations to apply the brakes hard as a first reaction. It should at least help. As C&D said, shutting off the ignition on a modern car is a last resort, and not recommended...and they didn't even mention the steering lock issue.

[spyryder]

...and they didn't even mention the steering lock issue.

Steering normally won't lock unless the transmission is in park. Some cars don't even have a steering lock anymore as in my Chrysler 300.

[NancysToy]

Steering normally won't lock unless the transmission is in park. Some cars don't even have a steering lock anymore as in my Chrysler 300.

Well, that's a new wrinkle that I didn't know. The first steering locks would lock anywhere, and it could be mean if you turned off the key. Had a Dodge Colt that I tested that theory on.

[spyryder]

Well, that's a new wrinkle that I didn't know. The first steering locks would lock anywhere, and it could be mean if you turned off the key. Had a Dodge Colt that I tested that theory on.

All cars with a locking steering are supposed to have what's called a shift interlock. As long as the car isn't in park (or reverse in a manual trans), then you should only be able to turn the key off, but not to the lock position. I'm surprised you could do that with the Colt.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h18.pdf

[Firefly]

As for what to do if your SE5 soemhow gets stuck at full throttle when there is no way to put it in neutral; Using the kill switch and leaving the ignition in the on position should leave us with the engine off, but all other features working- anti lock brakes, DPS, etc. so it should be fairly easy to coast to a halt.

I do wonder if that is the case- that all the systems continue to work when activating the kill switch at speed.
I may have to try that...

Actually your DPS is killed when you hit the killswitch. Not sure about the ABS.

[Way2Fast]

All cars with a locking steering are supposed to have what's called a shift interlock. As long as the car isn't in park (or reverse in a manual trans), then you should only be able to turn the key off, but not to the lock position. I'm surprised you could do that with the Colt.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h18.pdf

Besides having the transmission (auto) in park, I believe the key has to be removed before the wheel will lock.

[Tom in NM]

. . . . . with all the postings on brakes and turning off the key and locking steering wheels - it just goes to show how many people "don't know" what will happen or what to do in a particular vehicle. And this from a bunch of people who have lots of experience. What chance does a "non-mechanical" person have?

At the very least it shows that there is not a Standard for Emergency Stopping across different manufacturers or even across model years.

Tom

[spyryder]

. . . . . with all the postings on brakes and turning off the key and locking steering wheels - it just goes to show how many people "don't know" what will happen or what to do in a particular vehicle. And this from a bunch of people who have lots of experience. What chance does a "non-mechanical" person have?

At the very least it shows that there is not a Standard for Emergency Stopping across different manufacturers or even across model years.

Tom

Well it looks like people ARE finally getting an education due to this Toyota fiasco.

[aubierules]

. . . . . with all the postings on brakes and turning off the key and locking steering wheels - it just goes to show how many people "don't know" what will happen or what to do in a particular vehicle. And this from a bunch of people who have lots of experience. What chance does a "non-mechanical" person have?

At the very least it shows that there is not a Standard for Emergency Stopping across different manufacturers or even across model years.

Tom

[Firefly]

. . . . . with all the postings on brakes and turning off the key and locking steering wheels - it just goes to show how many people "don't know" what will happen or what to do in a particular vehicle. And this from a bunch of people who have lots of experience. What chance does a "non-mechanical" person have?

At the very least it shows that there is not a Standard for Emergency Stopping across different manufacturers or even across model years.

Tom

I understand where you're coming from - but every car I've ever seen (stick or automatic) had neutral. I would bet that someone who was used to driving a stick would know enough to drop into neutral - even on an automatic.

[NancysToy]

I understand where you're coming from - but every car I've ever seen (stick or automatic) had neutral. I would bet that someone who was used to driving a stick would know enough to drop into neutral - even on an automatic.

For a great many people, this would be an exceedingly hard decision...or at least a slow one. In the heat of the moment, many wouldn't realize quickly enough that their lives are more important than a blown engine, so they might hesitate. Not putting a vehicle with an engine at full throttle in neutral is somewhat instinctive, and they would have to fight those first instincts. I have seen it on the race track, and real life drivers aren't as experienced, in general, as race drivers.

[spyryder]

I understand where you're coming from - but every car I've ever seen (stick or automatic) had neutral. I would bet that someone who was used to driving a stick would know enough to drop into neutral - even on an automatic.

Many modern cars also have rev limiters which won't allow the engine to exceed 3-4000 RPM's in park or neutral.

[Tom in NM]

Here is a video of what Toyota recommends.

http://www.toyota.com/recall/videos/...procedure.html

It seems pretty clear and concise - and answers a lot of the questions above. Though, that pressing the "button" for 3 seconds seemed like an eternity.

Tom