Overdue Report About MTV Replacement Front Springs and Brake Discs

[PMK]

Helping a friend. His 2021 already has the Baja Ron swaybar and front shock preload adjusters.

A few years ago, when I installed his Baja Ron preload collars, he knew I was not 100% on board, but knew it could be an interim method to better obtain an acceptable front suspension.

Now, Christmas time, he and I were discussing how replacing the front springs vs running preload adjuster very likely is a better choice for him.

So with that, the floating front brake rotors from Martin, a sponsor here, are cool too and worth considering.

In regards to Martins products here offers, are any USA vendors stocking and selling them?

Thanks

[Mosess01]

Happy New Year PMK. A few years ago, I had the pre-load adjusters on my 15RTS. I also had the sway bar installed. The bike handled a little better, but I was never thrilled with this setup. I now own a 21 RTL and was looking for a better handling in corners. The first upgrade was the sway bar and end links. I have now installed the HR springs from Martin, and I am very happy with the results. The turn ins are positive with great feed-back. The side-to-side wobble is completely gone. Now the downside, and there is only one; the bike rides a little harsher over bumps and if the road is not great you will notice it and slow down a bit more. On top all of it the savings are pretty large. If you can do the install yourself, you will save $500.00.... if you need help with the install, I can do that depending on your location. I am in northern NJ....

[PMK]

Happy New Year PMK. A few years ago, I had the pre-load adjusters on my 15RTS. I also had the sway bar installed. The bike handled a little better, but I was never thrilled with this setup. I now own a 21 RTL and was looking for a better handling in corners. The first upgrade was the sway bar and end links. I have now installed the HR springs from Martin, and I am very happy with the results. The turn ins are positive with great feed-back. The side-to-side wobble is completely gone. Now the downside, and there is only one; the bike rides a little harsher over bumps and if the road is not great you will notice it and slow down a bit more. On top all of it the savings are pretty large. If you can do the install yourself, you will save $500.00.... if you need help with the install, I can do that depending on your location. I am in northern NJ....

And a Happy New Year back at you.

I was talking with my friend earlier today. New plan is likely going to be, remove an oem spring and test it. Then buy aftermarket springs with increased rate. Not Martins, since his start out expensive and get more costly with shipping.

The mechanical part is easy. Having the spring tested is not difficult, just a solid 45 minute drive each way.

I was pricing out spring rate testers the other day, just deciding if I really should step up or not.

Will keep you updated. Hope to also find the oem gen 2 RT series rear shock to test that spring and be the basis for building a custom rear shock.

[helton61]

And a Happy New Year back at you.

I was talking with my friend earlier today. New plan is likely going to be, remove an oem spring and test it. Then buy aftermarket springs with increased rate. Not Martins, since his start out expensive and get more costly with shipping.

The mechanical part is easy. Having the spring tested is not difficult, just a solid 45 minute drive each way.

I was pricing out spring rate testers the other day, just deciding if I really should step up or not.

Will keep you updated. Hope to also find the oem gen 2 RT series rear shock to test that spring and be the basis for building a custom rear shock.

Hi, Happy New Year. If you come up with some springs, I would be interested in a set. I have a 16 RTL.

[PMK]

Offering up an update. My friend ordered new front brake discs from Martin. These are not EBC or oem Brembos, but rather the high performance floating brake discs.

Also ordered were the HR springs from Martin.

Plans change, and the new plan is to remove the oem springs, and remove the BajaRon preload adjusters, then swap in these new HR springs. Give it a quick verification that the wheel alignment is within acceptable limits. Then have him settle everything with a short ride or two, followed by, dig out the ROLO laser alignment equipment / BUDS2 and determine the best front wheel toe in setting for these new springs. The firmer springs, I expect, will find the toe in amount can be decreased, giving better longevity to the Federal Formoza front tires, less rolling resistance, and more stable cornering from less bump steer affect from suspension movements.

Currently, waiting for everything to arrive from Martin. Should be a great upgrade, expensive, but sweet. Doing the complete brake system flush and bleed too, so my friend should be dialed in for our winter riding season.

Myself, I am mostly excited about the brake discs. Yes expensive, but seriously considering them for our Spyder too.

[troop]

Offering up an update. My friend ordered new front brake discs from Martin. These are not EBC or oem Brembos, but rather the high performance floating brake discs.

Also ordered were the HR springs from Martin.

Plans change, and the new plan is to remove the oem springs, and remove the BajaRon preload adjusters, then swap in these new HR springs. Give it a quick verification that the wheel alignment is within acceptable limits. Then have him settle everything with a short ride or two, followed by, dig out the ROLO laser alignment equipment / BUDS2 and determine the best front wheel toe in setting for these new springs. The firmer springs, I expect, will find the toe in amount can be decreased, giving better longevity to the Federal Formoza front tires, less rolling resistance, and more stable cornering from less bump steer affect from suspension movements.

Currently, waiting for everything to arrive from Martin. Should be a great upgrade, expensive, but sweet. Doing the complete brake system flush and bleed too, so my friend should be dialed in for our winter riding season.

Myself, I am mostly excited about the brake discs. Yes expensive, but seriously considering them for our Spyder too.

I also bit the bullet and ordered the H&R springs from Martin. In the past, I always had the local suspension shop source me out heavier springs after they measured mine. I am intrigued by the dual rate function of the H&R. With you being in FL, you'll know how they work before I do in WI.

[larryd]

My concern with the H & R springs is "the one size & setting fits ALL size riders and passengers"...Martin recommends removing the BAJARON adjustors and going back to the non adjustable set up??? larryd

[PMK]

My concern with the H & R springs is "the one size & setting fits ALL size riders and passengers"...Martin recommends removing the BAJARON adjustors and going back to the non adjustable set up??? larryd

I believe you previously mentioned that your Spyder has BRP accessory Fox Shox on the front. As I mentioned previously, I would upgrade the springs you have with Eibachs or Hyperco stuff.
Not even sure the H&R springs will fit the Fox Shox. If time permits, I may get my other Fox Shox that are in storage, remove a spring and see if the H&R fits the Fox Shox.

As for my friends Spyder, yes, the BajaRon stuff comes off and will not be used. If preload is needed, I will fabricate preload spacers on the lathe.
Friend is a taller big guy. Not a racer or someone that pushes the limits. Simply, the oem springs were too soft when he bought the Spyder. These should be another step up once installed.

[Knizar]

PMK, I'm sorry, but I can not find what model Spyder your friend is having you up-grade.
I'm following this thread as it might be something I would consider in the future if it pertained to my Spyder.
TIA, Bill

[PMK]

PMK, I'm sorry, but I can not find what model Spyder your friend is having you up-grade.
I'm following this thread as it might be something I would consider in the future if it pertained to my Spyder.
TIA, Bill

2021 RT Limited or whatever they called it. Not a base model. It is the newer body style in chalk color.

[helton61]

I believe you previously mentioned that your Spyder has BRP accessory Fox Shox on the front. As I mentioned previously, I would upgrade the springs you have with Eibachs or Hyperco stuff.
Not even sure the H&R springs will fit the Fox Shox. If time permits, I may get my other Fox Shox that are in storage, remove a spring and see if the H&R fits the Fox Shox.

As for my friends Spyder, yes, the BajaRon stuff comes off and will not be used. If preload is needed, I will fabricate preload spacers on the lathe.
Friend is a taller big guy. Not a racer or someone that pushes the limits. Simply, the oem springs were too soft when he bought the Spyder. These should be another step up once installed.

Please try the HR springs on the fox shocks would be good to know.

[PMK]

Please try the HR springs on the fox shocks would be good to know.

Best that might happen as far as the Fox Shox getting the H&R springs might be just checking if they fit. The Spyder getting the H&R springs and floating brake rotors has oem stock shocks.

Only way my spare set of Fox Shox go on my friends Spyder would be if something goes wrong.

Sorry.

[PMK]

Friends parts arrived today from Martin the Vlogger.
No ride report yet as it was late when we finished.

The floating brake discs are very sweet looking. Quality appears top notch, so expecting good, even great stopping power once bedded in.

Spring change was easy also. The new springs are shorter in length, but absolutely firmer in rate. From a technical perspective, the longer oem springs run a lot of preload along with the lesser spring rate. That type setup typically fits a wider range of riders, but none of them spot on.

With modifications to the BajaRon preload adjusters, I was able to retain and reinstall those. Not expecting the need to add preload with the firmer springs, but can if needed.

While apart, he asked me to finish the wiring for his new TricLED mirror lights. The new lights had issues. Took longer to troubleshoot the electrical issue than to do the shock springs and brake disc swap. The new lights utilized TricLED plug and play harnesses. Should be simple, but their design is using 2 extension harnesses and 2 “y” harnesses per side. So 8 total wire harnesses to connect from the front fender to the mirror. So yes, one of the new wire harnesses is the fault, but took a while to troubleshoot both lights and all those harnesses.

Ride report after I get to try those brakes.

[Mosess01]

PMK, I have the same setup with one added feature. I have the adjustable sway bar. I am over the moon with the results and the handling. New car tires in the coming couple of months.

[larryd]

..... With modifications to the BajaRon preload adjusters, I was able to retain and reinstall those. Not expecting the need to add preload with the firmer springs, but can if needed. .....

PMK, Yes I currently have the BRP Fox shocks on the front of my 2014 RTS... As I stated earlier,R I'm out of spring preload adjustment to achieve my desired ride height...

I have my stock 2014 RTS shocks with the BAJARON adjustors as stand by's...

What were the modifications needed to use BAJARON adjustors with the H&R springs on the stock shocks??? How much adjustment was needed to achieve your ride height???

And it would really be nice to know if the H&R Springs would work or could be adapted to our Fox shocks???

THANK YOU, larryd

[PMK]

PMK, I have the same setup with one added feature. I have the adjustable sway bar. I am over the moon with the results and the handling. New car tires in the coming couple of months.

To clarify, are you saying your Spyder has the oem Sachs front shocks, AND you installed the BajaRon preload adjusters AND installed the H&R springs from Martin the Vlogger?

Also, it sounds as if you installed the Martin the Vlogger swaybar, since you indicated yours being adjustble.

If your setup matches my friends Spyder, did you also install the floating brake discs?

[PMK]

PMK, Yes I currently have the BRP Fox shocks on the front of my 2014 RTS... As I stated earlier,R I'm out of spring preload adjustment to achieve my desired ride height...

I have my stock 2014 RTS shocks with the BAJARON adjustors as stand by's...

What were the modifications needed to use BAJARON adjustors with the H&R springs on the stock shocks??? How much adjustment was needed to achieve your ride height???

And it would really be nice to know if the H&R Springs would work or could be adapted to our Fox shocks???

THANK YOU, larryd

I did not get my second set of BRP aftermarket Fox Shox out of storage and test fit the H&R springs. Based on having the Fox Shox on our own 2014 RTS, immediately once installed, it certainly felt that the Fox setup utilizes a firmer spring.

The newly installed H&R springs, like our Fox setup, is noticeably firmer. Firm enough that I regretted selling our oem swaybar, and wish I had kept it for testing. With the upgraded Fox stuff, and the upgraded swaybar the front suspension is very firm on a single wheel impact.

The modification to the BajaRon parts was easy and required. The new H&R springs, being made from a larger wire diameter, have a slightly smaller ID that can not work with the BajaRon preload adjuster, unless the spring perch is modified. After some quick dimensional checks, it was noted that the oem Sachs shock lower spring perch (non adjustable), seats the spring in the same position on the shock as a BajaRon adjuster at minimum preload. 1 minute in the lathe and the BajaRon preload adjuster had the spring centering seat machined away.

Upon assembly, the modified preload adjuster installed first, followed by the new H&R spring, then the oem spring perches (2 piece design). For assembly, the preload adjuster was at minimum preload. Both front shocks were reinstalled.

My friend called yesterday after logging some miles on it. He is a reasonably big guy at around 6’4” and maybe 275 pounds. His comments. Chassis roll / side sway is essentially eliminated. Under braking, no more front dive when brakes are applied. Granted, I expect there is some front dive, but like our Spyder with Fox Shox, the amount of front dive is a fraction of what the oem springs allow.

Yes, my friend spent his lunch money on the upgrades. He is only in it for the price of parts and shipping. I charge him nothing when I help him out. Nice guy he is, and helps many others, including the wife and I.

Want to get a ride on his Spyder this weekend to see how it compares to our Fox setup. I did tell him, log 100 or so miles to let the suspension settle, plus see if we need to dial in any preload. After that I will laser align it for him, which I expect, since the firmer springs better control bump steer, his Spyder should roll more freely, and have no tucking tendency in the corners.

Larry, if I were in your shoes, my path would be firmer springs, not saying H&R yet since I have other spring brands I use for the race bikes, installed on the Fox Shox. If you want, jack your Spyder and unwind a preload collar. Measure the springs free length and diameter of the spring seat perch. Should be able to know more from that.

[troop]

I did not get my second set of BRP aftermarket Fox Shox out of storage and test fit the H&R springs. Based on having the Fox Shox on our own 2014 RTS, immediately once installed, it certainly felt that the Fox setup utilizes a firmer spring.

The newly installed H&R springs, like our Fox setup, is noticeably firmer. Firm enough that I regretted selling our oem swaybar, and wish I had kept it for testing. With the upgraded Fox stuff, and the upgraded swaybar the front suspension is very firm on a single wheel impact.

The modification to the BajaRon parts was easy and required. The new H&R springs, being made from a larger wire diameter, have a slightly smaller ID that can not work with the BajaRon preload adjuster, unless the spring perch is modified. After some quick dimensional checks, it was noted that the oem Sachs shock lower spring perch (non adjustable), seats the spring in the same position on the shock as a BajaRon adjuster at minimum preload. 1 minute in the lathe and the BajaRon preload adjuster had the spring centering seat machined away.

Upon assembly, the modified preload adjuster installed first, followed by the new H&R spring, then the oem spring perches (2 piece design). For assembly, the preload adjuster was at minimum preload. Both front shocks were reinstalled.

My friend called yesterday after logging some miles on it. He is a reasonably big guy at around 6’4” and maybe 275 pounds. His comments. Chassis roll / side sway is essentially eliminated. Under braking, no more front dive when brakes are applied. Granted, I expect there is some front dive, but like our Spyder with Fox Shox, the amount of front dive is a fraction of what the oem springs allow.

Yes, my friend spent his lunch money on the upgrades. He is only in it for the price of parts and shipping. I charge him nothing when I help him out. Nice guy he is, and helps many others, including the wife and I.

Want to get a ride on his Spyder this weekend to see how it compares to our Fox setup. I did tell him, log 100 or so miles to let the suspension settle, plus see if we need to dial in any preload. After that I will laser align it for him, which I expect, since the firmer springs better control bump steer, his Spyder should roll more freely, and have no tucking tendency in the corners.

Larry, if I were in your shoes, my path would be firmer springs, not saying H&R yet since I have other spring brands I use for the race bikes, installed on the Fox Shox. If you want, jack your Spyder and unwind a preload collar. Measure the springs free length and diameter of the spring seat perch. Should be able to know more from that.

PMK,
Is your friend riding with the OEM sway bar? I ask because the BR Ultra sway bar was going to be my next purchase and use with my incoming H&R springs. I'm a 6'3" / 230# 100% solo rider, so a bit lighter than your friend. I did add the BR end links last fall to use in the interim.

[PMK]

PMK,
Is your friend riding with the OEM sway bar? I ask because the BR Ultra sway bar was going to be my next purchase and use with my incoming H&R springs. I'm a 6'3" / 230# 100% solo rider, so a bit lighter than your friend. I did add the BR end links last fall to use in the interim.

For my friends Spyder, the oem swaybar was removed a while back, and the BajaRon original swaybar was installed. Preload adjusters were also installed. He adjusted the preload up and down, ultimately settling on zero added preload. When I rode it in that setup, the front had the over preloaded / soft spring vague feel that a stock Spyder has.
I rode his Spyder a bit in that setup.

For a Spyder, street driven, and exposed to the elements, I am not a fan of the new style swaybar. Sorry. Mixing aluminum against steel, on a splined interface can add an element of possible corrosion and fretting over time at the aluminum splines. Simply not something worth dealing with unless truly riding hard and at the limit, or racing.

Truth told, if it were me, I would upgrade springs first, then test ride / evaluate if a firmer swaybar should be considered. Between the firmer springs decreasing chassis roll, and you not being heavy, adding the swaybar may reduce front grip and add harshness on single wheel type bumps. Consider too, the roads here in SoFlo overall are very good most times. Also, our area is not known for having “stuff” on the road surface that reduces grip, (except rain water). Time will tell about how well I like his setup, but expect good performance.

Weather permitting, I absolutely want to test those brake discs. While riding, I can get a pretty good idea of how the springs increased roll stiffness and if front end feels like it will push / understeer, threshold is approached. Then message you results.

For comparison, I am a stumpy legged 5’10” at 200 pounds.

[troop]

Greatly appreciate the input. I was on the fence between the standard/original sway bar. My riding style is much different between my F3S and RT STS. My F3S had upgraded shocks/sway bar/car tires/DJ PV3-mapped/pedal commander/Two Bros exhaust/etc.. My RT will have cat delete/K&N air filter/pedal commander/H&R springs and eventually car tires. I ripped/zipped the F3S, while I will cruise and listen to the tunes on the RT behind the bigger wind shield. Heck, I ride 100% solo and only fully load up a few weeks a year for touring. I'll still likely upgrade the OEM sway bar, but will likely stick with standard BR bar. Our Wisconsin roads will likely put a bit more stress on the (3) piece sway bar.

[PMK]

Troop, plans changed yesterday. Spent the day cutting, modifying and welding the rear frame and suspension on another friends moto trials bike. Was not able to ride his Spyder yet. Maybe today.

Will say though, that his comments after several rides are all positive. He now realizes that the discussions my friend and I had a while back (prior to Martin offering springs), were valid regarding replacement of the springs with those better suited for his weight.

His #1 comment is that the oem springs allowed the front end to dive under braking. The new firmer springs are supporting the front far better under the weight shift from braking. This lessened front end dive, and reduced the squirm under hard braking. This mimics what I find with our Spyder. I align the front ends with minimal toe in, and under hard braking, the front end dive, toes out both wheels, contributing to the squirm. Not dangerous or bad, just part of the Spyders primitive steering design. Besides, we ride far more miles without hard braking, than the few moments we do brake hard. Set the alignment for the majority of riding, not the minority.

His #2 comment was that sway induced from crowned roads is essentially gone. We have a nearby 50 mph road with multiple crowns from wear to the road. Our Spyder, and our cars / trucks, experience that side to side movement as the vehicle finds equilibrium of the crown and tires. The Spyders have the most difficult time, on account of the rear wheel riding a crowns peak. The firmer springs, lessen the steering input to maintain traveling straight, vs that side to side from the road surface. This mimics what I experience our Spyder.

That said, I did take a minute to do the stand on the floorboards and rock the Spyder test. Compared to our 2014 RTS with the BRP accessories Fox Shox, the Fox Shox we have, are valved more firmly in rebound, compression damping is similar. That is comparing oem Sachs shocks to the Fox Shox.

As for the floorboard test regarding the springs, his new springs are a similar, firmer feel, to the Fox Shox setup. Really need to ride it for a better, more accurate comparison.

I still need to accomplish the flush and bleed of his Spyders brake system, plus laser align it once everything is settled.
There is a good chance, at that time, I will remove his shocks, remove the springs and further modify the BajaRon parts. Will know more on that after I verify the angles of the suspension with him on it, while on the slip plates. With minimal effort, I expect to take his Spyders handling and comfort level up a level.

Will let you know after I ride it. Really want to try those brakes too, they are way cool. Expensive, but way cool. If we ever warp a brake disc, the floating discs will be my choice for replacement. Performance be damned, they look killer and like decals making a motorcycle faster, the discs simply look fast.

[larryd]

PMK, Did you get to ride this Spyder with the H&R upgrade yet??? Thanks, larryd

[PMK]

Ok folks, finally got together with my friend, and am offering up a ride report and description of the work accomplished.

Several weeks ago, I helped my long time friend with his 2021 RT Limited. He had purchased for himself, a few Spyder Christmas gifts. This included two items from Martin the Vlogger/Ride on Three (or something like that) and an item from Sling Mods.

No ride report on the TricLed mirror lights he got from Slingmods. As expected, typical marginal quality TricLed stuff, which had new parts that were defective. Nuff said about that, but they are now installed and working correctly.

The meat and potatoes… the parts from Martin.
Installing the two replacement floating brake discs was not difficult, provided the installer has proper tools. Once properly and safely jacked, the front wheels are removed, followed by removing each brake caliper. With calipers removed, the brake discs simply slide off the hubs. The new discs slide onto the hubs. Reinstalling the calipers may require spreading the brake pads slightly to allow the caliper to reinstall over the new discs. Essentially, a very easy task. After reinstalling and correctly torquing the wheel retention lug nuts, depress the brake pedal slowly a few times to set the brake pads against the discs.

Upon initially riding the Spyder, plan to accomplish the process you decide best, to bed in the brakes. Typically, a series of five hard braking events from around 40 mph to a complete stop, do not allow the brakes to cool between stops.

Regarding the new front springs, that task is much more difficult. Both front shocks must be removed. A spring compressor is required to remove the springs, and to install the new springs.
My friends Spyder, I had previously installed BajaRon Preload adjusters. I did modify his preload adjuster to work with the new H&R/Martin springs. Be known though, that spring preload was not increased, nor decreased on these OEM Sachs front shocks. If my friend choses, he can add preload. Realize though, that none is needed.

My friend has a few weeks of miles on his new brake discs and springs. I wanted that done so that the suspension would settle before I checked his front wheel alignment.

FWIW, he is about 6’3” and 270 or so pounds. His comments regarding the brakes were that they stopped better. No squeaks or rubbing was noticed.
Regarding the springs, his comment was improved stability, no front dive under braking, and no shimmy under hard braking.

My report reads as follows. The brake discs look stunningly fabulous. I rode the Spyder and found the braking was superior to our 2014 RTS that runs OEM brake discs and BajaRon EBC HH brake pads. (Note that my friends Spyder still has the OEM Brembo brake pads). So then, regarding those brake discs, I am very impressed. One concern, and I have not checked, was if the Centramatic balancer rings will fit and have enough clearance for the new floating style brake disc rivets. So if you run Centramatic balancers, this needs to be verified. Simply did not have time to remove a Centramatic from our Spyder to test this.

The new front springs. HUGE improvement over OEM and OEM with BajaRon preload adjusters. My past experience found OEM suspension to be soft and more towards plush. Our own Spyder, the 2014 RTS has had BRP accessory aftermarket Fox Shox on it for a long time and many miles. The Fox Shox are valved with firmer damping and have firmer coil springs. This gave me a good basis to evaluate.

FWIW, I weigh 205 pounds and rise to 5’10”. Not as tall or as heavy as my friend.

When I headed out on his Spyder, I immediately began sawing the handlebars left to right/right to left. Response was crisp, with good feel, and no excessive chassis roll for the input applied to the bars. Typical corners were handled smoothly, with superb stability. Under hard braking, no front squirm existed, unless a bump introduced compression of the suspension, sending the wheels toe out. Once the chassis resettled, squirm immediately vanished.

Overall, superb and impressive handling.

But wait, there’s more! The H&R/Martin springs, installed on OEM Sachs shocks are more plush than our Fox Shox setup. I intentionally ran over road dots. Doing so, the Sachs shocks, being valved softer than our Fox Shox, my friend's setup was far more plush than ours over those road dots and no doubt similar obstacles as we ride. The reason for more plushness with the Sachs shocks is as I mentioned, the Fox Shox have firmer internal valving to control damping.

Also want to add, both ours and my friends Spyders both have original style BajaRon swaybars. This allows a more fair comparison.

To close, I will say for heavier riders, teams that ride two up, or taller riders, the replacement springs hit the mark from a cost vs performance value, especially if comparing against new performance shocks.

The brake discs are truly high end, and while cool beyond cool, they are expensive. Not knowing how they compare price wise to the EBC brake discs, I have no cost comparison point. Will say though, that when we need brake discs, I will buy the aftermarket floating type from Martin, after I ensure they will clearance the Cetramatic balancers.

Hope it helped, have fun, be safe.

[K80Shooter]

Thanks for the report PMK!

[larryd]

Any idea if the H&R springs will fit or can be adapted to the BRP Fox Shox's??? larryd