2015 Can Am Spyder F3 - Needs a new engine!

[Scottncol]

Just picked up a 2015 Spyder yesterday. When I was looking at the bike, it had a rough idle and would not stay running. The first thing I thought of was bad gas, water in the line, etc... NEVER did I think it would need a new engine.

I have had scooters for some time and have seen very similar situations before, where draining the gas, adding some Heet or other additive would do the trick. Today, while running the bike (after I got it trailered 200 miles home), it just stopped and I hear a clunk. It DID start again but then it shut down and now it's seized. Of course, that is after put a $170 battery in it. Oil was good, plugs recently replaced, brand new rear tire. It's just in BEAUTIFUL condition. It came with the Shad side-cases, which was a complete bonus.

Here is the thing, I LOVE this bike. I have always and I mean ALWAYS wanted a Spyder. I got the bike for a great deal and KBB has the value at $12,900. I value your opinion and would ask what the best route to go is?

1. Sell it and cut my losses?
2. Get the engine rebuilt?
3. Get a new engine?
4. Get a remanufactured engine?

(Please tell me to do options 2, 3 or 4)

Also, if you know, what would one expect to pay for any of the mentioned solutions?

I am truly heartbroken. Yes, over a bike...! haha

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and guidance.

Scott

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[Peter Aawen]

Hi Scott, Welcome to posting I'm just sorry you've gotta start on such a potentially painful note!

But I do hafta ask, what exactly makes you think the engine is totalled?? Have you considered any other reasons it might not be working; &/or have you had it looked at by anyone else?

[Scottncol]

What exactly makes you think the engine is totalled?? Have you considered any of the other reasons it might not be working; &/or have you had it looked at by anyone else?

Great point. I guess, I am not 100% sure.

It seized up on me and won't turn.

What should I be checking for? I do know that the sprocket turns. I think the rough idle was from a bad cylinder. Just assuming at this point.

[Knizar]

Need more info,
How many miles on it?
Who changed the plugs?
Was there any Errors showing?
Was it running hot?

You need another tech to look at it,
Snowbelt Spyder would be a good person to speak with!

JMHO Bill

[Peter Aawen]

All very helpful info for us to know... Also, did you run a maintenance/service check on the VIN before you bought it? If not, maybe you should do that now...

Sorry we might appear to be being needlessly bloody pedantic but we really aren't, we just need to know pretty close to exactly what you know has happened/you've experienced; what you've tried/done; and what's going on now to make you think 'it's seized' in order to help properly...

So, when you say "It seized up on me and won't turn" what exactly do you mean?? Similarly, which sprocket do you know turns?? From the pics, it looks like it's an SE6, so you shouldn't really be able to tell that the engine won't turn over at all, cos the bike should roll freely if the engine's not running and the Park Brake's not on... (the SE6 clutch is an engine oil pressure operated hydraulic clutch - if the engine's not running, there's no oil pressure, so the clutch should be disengaged. )

So, does it roll freely?? If it does, how do you know that "it won't turn", and really, what "it" are you referring to?? Does the starter motor even try to turn the engine over? Do you hear a loud 'click' when you press the starter, then nothing else?? Does the screen/dash light up & go thru its start routine when you turn the ignition on? If it does, then does the screen go blank/black when you press the starter? Did you put that $170 battery on a smart charger/maintainer for at least 8 hours BEFORE installing it? Have you checked/re-checked/tightened the battery terminals, every Earth point you can find, &/or load tested the battery? Have you checked the red Emergency Stop button on the RH hand-grip is in the Run position? Does it have a solid 'click' when operated, or does it just meekly click or out-right flop?? ...

I could probably go on like that ^^ for a while, cos these are all questions that would help us to narrow the potential issues a bit; but I'd guess that you've probably gone thru at least some of them before you arrived at your diagnosis, only we don't know which or even what you've already done! So pretty much anything from us at this stage is gonna be a wild arsed guess at best. The more you can tell us about the lead up; what exactly happened; and what you've checked/tried, then the more likely we'll be able to offer something truly helpful.

[Scottncol]

Need more info,
How many miles on it?
Who changed the plugs?
Was there any Errors showing?
Was it running hot?

You need another tech to look at it,
Snowbelt Spyder would be a good person to speak with!

JMHO Bill

13,000 miles
Plugs were changed by the previous owner, using oem.
A few codes but mostly related to ambient temp. sensor, etc.
Not running hot at all while I was running it. Just let it run as I circulated the new gas and gas treatment.

[Isopedella]

Gidday Scott and welcome.

Crikey what a **** intro to Spyder ownership. Yeah, Mod away Peter but it's true...

Reckon blokes who know much more than me can help you diagnose the problem.
Be patient as they become aware and offer advice.
Then take it from there how to remedy and possible stuff.

PS. Late Edit.

Can you turn a nut?

[Knizar]

13,000 miles
Plugs were changed by the previous owner, using oem.
A few codes but mostly related to ambient temp. sensor, etc.
Not running hot at all while I was running it. Just let it run as I circulated the new gas and gas treatment.

13K miles is more the problem than good! Not really broke in, now broken! You need to find out more of what type life this unused 8 year old baby has gone through. How well do you know the seller or previous owner, was he or she the original owner, are you sure that the prior maintenance was done correctly, so many questions, etc?

Snowbelt Spyder, PMK, & Jetfixer, are a few of the people here in the States that have the knowledge to possibly ask you the right questions and help you out. Good Luck, "Man made, Man can fix!"

[Latrappe]

Hello Scott, there are many times I have gone to see things that don't work that are supposed to be broken or dead mechanically. Like the majority of people say more information is needed, like we don't go to the doctor and say we are sick we tell him what's wrong then he can make an informed decision.

[Scottncol]

All very helpful info for us to know... Also, did you run a maintenance/service check on the VIN before you bought it? If not, maybe you should do that now...

Sorry we might appear to be being needlessly bloody pedantic but we really aren't, we just need to know pretty close to exactly what you know has happened/you've experienced; what you've tried/done; and what's going on now to make you think 'it's seized' in order to help properly...

So, when you say "It seized up on me and won't turn" what exactly do you mean?? Similarly, which sprocket do you know turns?? From the pics, it looks like it's an SE6, so you shouldn't really be able to tell that the engine won't turn over at all, cos the bike should roll freely if the engine's not running and the Park Brake's not on... (the SE6 clutch is an engine oil pressure operated hydraulic clutch - if the engine's not running, there's no oil pressure, so the clutch should be disengaged. )

So, does it roll freely?? If it does, how do you know that "it won't turn", and really, what "it" are you referring to?? Does the starter motor even try to turn the engine over? Do you hear a loud 'click' when you press the starter, then nothing else?? Does the screen/dash light up & go thru its start routine when you turn the ignition on? If it does, then does the screen go blank/black when you press the starter? Did you put that $170 battery on a smart charger/maintainer for at least 8 hours BEFORE installing it? Have you checked/re-checked/tightened the battery terminals, every Earth point you can find, &/or load tested the battery? Have you checked the red Emergency Stop button on the RH hand-grip is in the Run position? Does it have a solid 'click' when operated, or does it just meekly click or out-right flop?? ...

I could probably go on like that ^^ for a while, cos these are all questions that would help us to narrow the potential issues a bit; but I'd guess that you've probably gone thru at least some of them before you arrived at your diagnosis, only we don't know which or even what you've already done! So pretty much anything from us at this stage is gonna be a wild arsed guess at best. The more you can tell us about the lead up; what exactly happened; and what you've checked/tried, then the more likely we'll be able to offer something truly helpful.

No checks were made on the VIN. As a new owner, I didn't even know that was a possibility.

The bike was running when I went to see it at the seller's house. Although, it was running rough. I got it home and put a new battery in it, since it did not come with the correct battery. I did not let the battery charge because it said that it was fully charged. I would not have known to let it charge before using it.

Yes, the bike freely moves while not running and no parking brake applied.

I DO hear a loud click and then nothing else when I press the starter.

Emergency stop is in the run position.

I will certainly check the battery terminals and grounds and report back.

Definitely a sold click then nothing.

Is there a way to check for a seized engine? If so, I would be glad to check that.

Today, I am cleaning it up. It was rather dusty and dirty, in preparation for own repair or taking it somewhere.

REALLY appreciate your questions/comments!!

Scott

[Scottncol]

13K miles is more the problem than good! Not really broke in, now broken! You need to find out more of what type life this unused 8 year old baby has gone through. How well do you know the seller or previous owner, was he or she the original owner, are you sure that the prior maintenance was done correctly, so many questions, etc?

Snowbelt Spyder, PMK, & Jetfixer, are a few of the people here in the States that have the knowledge to possibly ask you the right questions and help you out. Good Luck, "Man made, Man can fix!"

It was an older lady. She cruised on it and one day it just stopped. I doubt she ran it very hard but who knows what kind of maintenance she did or didn't do. As an attempt to remedy the problem, it is my assumption that she had the oil changed, plugs changed, etc. (not sure what the etc. is, just assuming).

[Peter Aawen]

No checks were made on the VIN. As a new owner, I didn't even know that was a possibility.

The bike was running when I went to see it at the seller's house. Although, it was running rough. I got it home and put a new battery in it, since it did not come with the correct battery. I did not let the battery charge because it said that it was fully charged. I would not have known to let it charge before using it.

Yes, the bike freely moves while not running and no parking brake applied.

I DO hear a loud click and then nothing else when I press the starter.

Emergency stop is in the run position.

I will certainly check the battery terminals and grounds and report back.

Definitely a sold click then nothing.

Is there a way to check for a seized engine? If so, I would be glad to check that.

Today, I am cleaning it up. It was rather dusty and dirty, in preparation for own repair or taking it somewhere.

REALLY appreciate your questions/comments!!

Scott

Given what you've said above in the quoted post, before you do anything else, put your new battery on charge using a battery maintainer (not just a trickle charger! ) for at least 8 hours - or get your new battery load tested & then if it isn't already dead (yes, New batteries can die very quickly if not charged properly before installation!!) Even tho the retailers frequently say the batteries they sell are 'charged', new batteries often aren't 'fully charged' (altho maybe that 'often' should really be 'usually'... ) they're just given a 'surface charge' and what you're describing sounds very much like it could well be just a flat battery!

So test the battery &/or charge it properly and see if that helps. These Spyder things are notoriously power hungry, and that solid click you're hearing is often the starter solenoid telling you there's just not enough grunt/charge left in the battery to turn the engine over!

Good Luck!

[Scottncol]

Yes, based on what you said yesterday, I put it on the charger overnight. So, I am heading to the garage in a few minutes and will test.

[Scottncol]

Codes displayed:

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[Scottncol]

Given what you've said above in the quoted post, before you do anything else, put your new battery on charge using a battery maintainer (not just a trickle charger! ) for at least 8 hours - or get your new battery load tested & then if it isn't already dead (yes, New batteries can die very quickly if not charged properly before installation!!) Even tho the retailers frequently say the batteries they sell are 'charged', new batteries often aren't 'fully charged' (altho maybe that 'often' should really be 'usually'... ) they're just given a 'surface charge' and what you're describing sounds very much like it could well be just a flat battery!

So test the battery &/or charge it properly and see if that helps. These Spyder things are notoriously power hungry, and that solid click you're hearing is often the starter solenoid telling you there's just not enough grunt/charge left in the battery to turn the engine over!

Good Luck!

Battery fully charged and it is the motor that clicks, not the starter.

Glad to get a video, if that would help.

[AndysF3S]

Unless you have tried to turn the engine over by hand or some other way, how would you be able to tell if the starter bendix is locked up, the solenoid is bad, or the engine is seized?
Have you pulled the spark plugs and then tried the starter to see if the engine will turn over? You may have fuel in one of the cylinders from a bad injector?
I would start at the starter and work up from there.

[BertRemington]

Scott -- you posted:

"I have had scooters for some time" I assume you are referring to motorcycles in the vernacular. With this experience and a nine-year old Spyder you really should read the Owner's Manual and purchase a Service Manual before pushing the Start button.

"Oil was good" You should have changed it along with engine and HCM filters, especially if you don't have any written maintenance records. Baja Ron can help with this. Same with coolant.

"Plugs were changed by the previous owner, using oem" Did you have any reason to believe the previous owner installed the "OEM" spark plugs correctly? That is, was thermal paste used on the threads and silicone lubricant on the seals? The 1330cc can be fussy about its spark plugs. Again, Baja Ron can help with this. The 1330cc can be fussy about its spark plugs.

"I do know that the sprocket turns" As noted above, clutch engagement is achieved under pressure (line pressure is twice engine pressure) when the engine is running. The clutch is fully disengaged when the engine isn't running. The Service Manual explains this.

"A few codes but mostly related to ambient temp. sensor, etc." You should've shared these with us up front, who own and read the Service Manual. This is dereliction on your part. But you did provide them later -- thank you.

"Not running hot at all while I was running it" Absence of coolant can provide the same indication.

"She cruised on it and one day it just stopped" This is the previous owner who changed the spark plugs??? Changing the spark plugs takes a not minor amount of skills and specific tools. As you noted "who knows what kind of maintenance she did or didn't do" so this calls into question what other owner-performed maintenance was performed and was it performed correctly.

"I am cleaning it up. It was rather dusty and dirty" This implies marginal storage conditions. Those conditions are unlikely to cause the 1330cc to freeze up but can lead to problems in the electrical and fuel systems.

My suggestions based on the information to date:

(1) Take a deep breath and relax. It's unlikely the engine has seized unless the spark plugs holes where left open for an extended period of time leading to water entry and rust which would cause cylinder wear than might lead to "one day it just stopped." Again, this is unlikely.

(2) Take a step back. Order a Service Manual. It will be electronic so delivery should be very quick. Then take some time reading it. If you like to understand machinery the manual does a nice job of explaining your new machine.

(3) Continue with cleaning your Spyder. It's a great way to get familiar with it. You will also discover the specific tools needs to change the oil, remove bodywork, etc.

(4) Best wishes with your new Spyder. I think with the community's help, you will be riding it in a few weeks with the same engine it already has.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Just to make you aware ....Bert is one of the smartest people on this Forum concerning the Spyder .... His suggestion to 'Take a deep breath and relax' is very wise ..... I and many, many others here have learned a lot from Him .... JMHO ....Mike

[Isopedella]

Yep..

From what I have read so far, I'm optimistic that it's not a catastrophic failure.
It's just a matter of identifying the fault.

Like Bert has said, Plenty of Blokes on here can assist with getting it running sweet again.

My question for you is what experience do you have with bike maintenance, and do you have any tools and stuff?

If you're serious about getting this sorted, don't shortcut or riddle the answers to questions posted.

[BertRemington]

P0172

-ECM
-Fuel correction reached the minimum limit, multiplicative Any reason which will cause a rich condition under load, ex: Fuel pressure too high Oil entering the intake system through the vacuum assist line Canister purge valve stuck open
-Inspect evap canister purge valve function. Perform EVAP Purge Valve Operational Test as described in the Fuel Tank and Fuel System section of the shop manual If purge valve is replaced perform ECM first initialization using BUDS ECM/Setting screen If ECM first initialization is performed GBPS initialization must be done as per Warranty Bulletin 010-4 procedure Check fuel pressure regulator.

P011C
-ECM
-Ambient Air Temperature Sensor circuit high Sensor disconnected Defective sensor, damaged wires, wire shorted to battery +, ECM voltage supply too High.
-Make sure sensor connector is fully inserted. Measure voltage between harness connector pins 1 and 4 . (Expected value: 4.8 to 5.1 volts) Measure resistance from connector: ECMA-H4 to AAPTS-1 (Expected value: < 2 ohms) Measure resistance from connector: ECMA-J4 to AAPTS-2 (Expected value: < 2 ohms)

C1290 and C006C -- search is your friend (they aren't in my Service Manual)


Some quick checks:

With the ignition switch off, do your brake lights illuminate when you push the brake pedal and does your horn sound when you push the horn button?

When the ignition switch is turn on, does the fuel pump run for a few seconds and then shut off?

[Scottncol]

My suggestions based on the information to date:

(1) Take a deep breath and relax. It's unlikely the engine has seized unless the spark plugs holes where left open for an extended period of time leading to water entry and rust which would cause cylinder wear than might lead to "one day it just stopped." Again, this is unlikely.

(2) Take a step back. Order a Service Manual. It will be electronic so delivery should be very quick. Then take some time reading it. If you like to understand machinery the manual does a nice job of explaining your new machine.

(3) Continue with cleaning your Spyder. It's a great way to get familiar with it. You will also discover the specific tools needs to change the oil, remove bodywork, etc.

(4) Best wishes with your new Spyder. I think with the community's help, you will be riding it in a few weeks with the same engine it already has..

I have NEVER owned a Can Am before.

*I own a service manual. Purchased the download as soon as I got home.
*The service manual is nearly a thousand pages. Not reading an entire service manual.
*I have shared the codes.
*I checked the coolant and oil when I got it home.
*The previous owner is 80 years old. She had the plugs changed and the oil changed at a dealer. She gave me those receipts. It was Saturday, so I was not able to call the dealer to get the full history.
*Obviously, a dusty/dirty bike will not cause the engine to seize.
*Spyder is cleaned. Did that today.

Thank you for your best wishes. The community has been most helpful...

[Scottncol]

Yep..

From what I have read so far, I'm optimistic that it's not a catastrophic failure.
It's just a matter of identifying the fault.

Like Bert has said, Plenty of Blokes on here can assist with getting it running sweet again.

My question for you is what experience do you have with bike maintenance, and do you have any tools and stuff?

If you're serious about getting this sorted, don't shortcut or riddle the answers to questions posted.

I have owned 8 scooters/trikes. I have TONS of experience with them. NO experience with a Can Am Spyder. All the tools I need.

[Navydad]

I do and have always done all of my own maintenance on my bikes including my Spyder. There are many here that are a lot wiser than me when it comes to these machines, but I don't think you have an engine failure at all. I know you get tired of hearing about the battery but that is often the issue when a problem arises. Weird things going on and weird codes being thrown are often the result of a weak battery and/or a bad connection. Not just the connection at the battery terminals but also the ground connections to the frame. What if any aftermarket electrical items does the bike have? This can be a good place to start looking. I recently had what was a very expensive failure on my 2015 RT according to the codes being shown. Turned out that it was corrosion in a plug of an added electrical item that was easily and cheaply corrected. That's why I asked about any additions. These machines operate on a CANBUS wiring system that while not really complicated at all can be very finicky if tampered with. The slightest change in voltage or amperage can be read as a problem by the ECM. Man, I wish you were closer. I love a troubleshooting challenge and I would do what I could to help. Don't get too frustrated with the folks here. I know sometimes we think someone needs a smack, but sooner or later one of us is going to figure out your issue and it may even be you. These machines aren't as complicated as some may think when you sit back and go at it slowly. What drives you nuts is the fact that every system seems to tie into all the other systems and it is easy to go off on a tangent. Sorry I don't have a definitive answer for you. Don't give up on the Spyder or on us. Let me know what you find.

[Isopedella]

Ah ok. Cheers for the reply. Great.

Yep, these are totally different. I myself have been turning nuts and maintaining bikes since the mid 70's, that's 40 odd years or so I guess.

And I was astounded with the way these Spyders are put together in places.
I very much value Berts', and a few others' guidance.

Post #17 is worth re-reading.

Over to you. Iso.

[CloverHillCrawler]

Scott where are you at in PA? If you are close enough by I can come by and help you take a look at it.