Electric Spyder next?

[Lee0123]

There have been a few comments about battery life being short. Our experience with battery life has been good on our 3 Toyota hybrids. My wife bought a 2010 Prius and drove it for 120,000 miles before handing it down to my daughter in 2015. Wife then bought a 2014 Prius at that time and drove it for 120,000 miles. In 2021 they swapped Priuses and my wife traded the 2010 in with 140,000 miles on it for a 2021 Vensa. My daughter drove the 2014 Prius until it was total when a kid ran a red light and broadsided her. 135,000 on the car. We never had a battery problem on our 3 hybrids. My brother inlaw just traded in his 2010 Prius with 230,000 miles on it, he's had no battery problems either. He bought another Prius.

Same batteries as in EVs. I certainly would not avoid buying an EV based on a fear that the battery would fail. When my gas Ford Escape needs replacement I will consider a plug in hybrid or a full EV. Same with my motorcycles, when the time comes I'll see what's available and what best suits my needs / budget.

[bikerbillone]

Lee, I'll have jump in and second that comment on the hybrid Prius. I've owned and driven that vehicle as my only transportation, except my Spyder, since 2003. I now drive a 2019 hybrid Prius with just over 30K miles with an average 60.2 mpg, with no problems. Just change the oil every 6K miles and go.

[BajaRon]

If BRP can not build a seat shock that works, how can they possibly build an electric three wheeler? It's somewhat of a joke, but jus sayin.

OH! Ouch! That hurts all the way over here!

[ollicat]

Sometimes though, technology does hit a brick wall and dies. Two examples are nuclear powered aircraft and super sonic transport. Sometimes market is the brick wall. Consider microwave ovens. They were originally touted as a be all for all sorts of oven use. Now they are mostly used for reheating. And consider Beta vs VHS. The superior tech, Beta, lost out to VHS because of what appealed most to users, the user interface and run time.

This is a very good point and what I have tried to explain to others in the past. Batteries are great technology for the right use, like cell phones, etc. where one can easily charge in the existing infrastructure. A Gas powered phone would be heavy, noisy, and loud. Likewise, a car, because of its size, is better to be powered by a petrol engine. The exception would be smaller cars that are suitable to "around town" usage where short ranges are the norm and charging is nearby. But for larger cars, trucks, and those going greater distances, a petrol car is best. So what bothers me is not the existence of EVs, but the MANDATE to be the end-all for all. Best to let the market decide when and where to use EVs.

[ollicat]

There have been a few comments about battery life being short. Our experience with battery life has been good on our 3 Toyota hybrids. My wife bought a 2010 Prius and drove it for 120,000 miles before handing it down to my daughter in 2015. Wife then bought a 2014 Prius at that time and drove it for 120,000 miles. In 2021 they swapped Priuses and my wife traded the 2010 in with 140,000 miles on it for a 2021 Vensa. My daughter drove the 2014 Prius until it was total when a kid ran a red light and broadsided her. 135,000 on the car. We never had a battery problem on our 3 hybrids. My brother inlaw just traded in his 2010 Prius with 230,000 miles on it, he's had no battery problems either. He bought another Prius.

Same batteries as in EVs. I certainly would not avoid buying an EV based on a fear that the battery would fail. When my gas Ford Escape needs replacement I will consider a plug in hybrid or a full EV. Same with my motorcycles, when the time comes I'll see what's available and what best suits my needs / budget.

Battery lives in hybrids are much better than in EVs. This is because the computer controls how and when the battery is charged to prolong its life. In a pure EV, the battery is filled based on usage which shortens the battery life.

[Lee0123]

I'm not sure that I agree with that. Like a hybrid when the EV is charged there is a computer controller that controlls the rate of charge and adjusts it on various parameters, like how far discharged ithe battery is, the battery temperature, the ambient temperature, and lots of other stuff. It is not just plug it in and stuff as much charge in it as you can as fast as you can. It is really tightly controlled by the onboard charge controller just like in a hybrid when the gas engine recharges the battery. Actually I would guess that a hybrid is even more complex of a charging scenario with both variable gas engine rpm and regeneritive braking involved.

[Raven]

This is a very good point and what I have tried to explain to others in the past. Batteries are great technology for the right use, like cell phones, etc. where one can easily charge in the existing infrastructure. A Gas powered phone would be heavy, noisy, and loud. Likewise, a car, because of its size, is better to be powered by a petrol engine. The exception would be smaller cars that are suitable to "around town" usage where short ranges are the norm and charging is nearby. But for larger cars, trucks, and those going greater distances, a petrol car is best. So what bothers me is not the existence of EVs, but the MANDATE to be the end-all for all. Best to let the market decide when and where to use EVs.

It's already here.
In 12 years you will not be able to buy a gas powered car or truck in Canada.
I am not against EV"s, We have to do something to clean the air.
But my worry is the job losses this is going to cost.
North America is driven by the auto and oil industries.
There are at least two engine plants in Ontario, what happens to them?
Is the price of gas going to climb higher because of less demand?
Are the people who work in the oil industry going to be looking for jobs?
How are the auto makers going to react being told what the make and sell.
Sorry if I sound all doom and gloom.
But I wonder if things are going a bit to fast without thinking through.
Bruce
What about the farmers growing corn for ethanol ?

[bikerbillone]

Who's gonna be able to buy these EVs? Government subsidies? I don't see it, I just don't see it. But that's just me.

[guber]

But I wonder if things are going a bit too fast without thinking through.

there is no plan. There never has been a plan. We will probably still be burning oil 50 years from now. It's going to take a combination of all current and Maybe future ways to power the Earth.
Nuclear anyone?

[Woodenfish]

Recent news says that 47% of Buick dealers will be ending their franchise rather than upgrade their facilities to sell money losing EV’s. Other news say that Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki CEO’s say that they are going to get rid of their dealer networks. Finally, other news I read said that consumers aren’t interested in purchasing EV’s and that the ones who purchased them are the outliers who wanted the new technology but replacement vehicle buyers were not interested. I think this EV cult is going to have to find a new or more sound religion.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

there is no plan. There never has been a plan. We will probably still be burning oil 50 years from now. It's going to take a combination of all current and Maybe future ways to power the Earth.
Nuclear anyone?

Nuclear holds promise. But it has been holding promise for 70 years! And we still haven't totally solved the problem of dealing with the non-reusable waste that nuclear fission creates. Nuclear waste is like no other industrial waste. You can't just dump it on the ground out in a desert and walk away from it, planning to come back in 100 years and clean it up. But, depleted Uranium makes a helluva mean projectile for wasting away enemy tanks!

IMO, the only long term solution, i.e., 500 years from today, is to use solar energy to disassociate water molecules which then will return that energy when the hydrogen is recombined with the oxygen in an engine of some sort or in a fuel cell.

[AndysF3S]

Don't tell anyone, but nuclear waste can go back in the mine that it was originally mined from. Huh!

I worked as a summer student for Eldorado Mining in 1967 in Uranium City, Sask. The mine is in the granite formation of the Canadian Shield and the mine had a vertical elevator and many side tunnels etc. with small rail tracks that used containers to move the rock to the elevator; from there it was hoisted to the surface; milled; and processed. The mine was shut down and reclaimed at the surface, but below ground, it's probably intact, other than it may be filled with water.
Package the nuclear waste in manageable containers; ship it up to Uranium City on the winter road; put it in the refurbished elevator; stop at the lowest level; then use a robot to push the cart out into the side tunnel; and it is now safely contained just like nature did it for millions of years. JMO

[Cobwebs]

Shouldn't we all have two heads by now with the waste water from Fukishima getting dumped in the ocean? Why are the people of Nagasaki not luminous. Could it be possible nuclear bombs are BS to keep the populous kacking their pants over a non existant threat.Wakey wakey.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Don't tell anyone, but nuclear waste can go back in the mine that it was originally mined from. Huh!

I worked as a summer student for Eldorado Mining in 1967 in Uranium City, Sask. The mine is in the granite formation of the Canadian Shield and the mine had a vertical elevator and many side tunnels etc. with small rail tracks that used containers to move the rock to the elevator; from there it was hoisted to the surface; milled; and processed. The mine was shut down and reclaimed at the surface, but below ground, it's probably intact, other than it may be filled with water.
Package the nuclear waste in manageable containers; ship it up to Uranium City on the winter road; put it in the refurbished elevator; stop at the lowest level; then use a robot to push the cart out into the side tunnel; and it is now safely contained just like nature did it for millions of years. JMO

That is what is being done now with the low-level transuranic waste in the form of clothes, contaminated machines, etc. that is being stored, hopefully forever, at the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant in New Mexico. The hard stuff to deal with is the extremely radioactive metals and such from the nuclear material that is the heart of the nuclear fission process. When that stuff is shipped it is inside steel and lead containers many inches (feet?) thick. That is the waste that is the real problem for disposal. That stuff is hot enough that if you are exposed to its radiation your life suddenly gets measured in minutes and hours. Nuclear core plates and rods are cut into small pieces on machines operated under 30 feet of water. The challenge with underground storage is finding sites that are geologically stable for hundreds of years. You don't want earthquakes, ground water, hot magma, and such bringing it to the earth's surface. The best way, and most impractical way, is to put the stuff on a rocket and send it into the sun.

[Mikey]

[Gwolf]

That is what is being done now with the low-level transuranic waste in the form of clothes, contaminated machines, etc. that is being stored, hopefully forever, at the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant in New Mexico. The hard stuff to deal with is the extremely radioactive metals and such from the nuclear material that is the heart of the nuclear fission process. When that stuff is shipped it is inside steel and lead containers many inches (feet?) thick. That is the waste that is the real problem for disposal. That stuff is hot enough that if you are exposed to its radiation your life suddenly gets measured in minutes and hours. Nuclear core plates and rods are cut into small pieces on machines operated under 30 feet of water. The challenge with underground storage is finding sites that are geologically stable for hundreds of years. You don't want earthquakes, ground water, hot magma, and such bringing it to the earth's surface. The best way, and most impractical way, is to put the stuff on a rocket and send it into the sun.

Nuclear Powered Rocket?

[CloverHillCrawler]

And when that rocket crashes back into the earth?

cmon now you know it will happen. Murphy's law.

[Cobwebs]

Nuclear Powered Rocket?

Lithium
hidesbehindsofa.gif

[Peter Aawen]

Nuclear Powered Rocket?

And when that rocket crashes back into the earth?

cmon now you know it will happen. Murphy's law.

It wouldn't take much of a stretch in current technology to build such a 'rocket' waaaay out in space, potentially even already in a slowly degrading orbit around the sun so that even if it failed, it'd eventually make it there.

Then that rocket could be loaded with long half-life &/or dangerous waste via smaller & proven reliable rockets, carrying waste up in smaller, less lethal in the event of failure to reach orbit type loads over a longer period of time (there are actually a few of those types of rockets, they're just not made by a company ever headed by someone named after a smallish shaggy-haired Arctic ruminant of the family Bovidae) until the load is sufficient to accelerate it off on its way into the Sun (or if it's already in a degrading orbit, would that be more of a 'deceleration' rather than 'acceleration?? Hmm?! )

But that's just one alternative option... . There's almost always more'n one way to skin a cat, IF you decide that you ARE going to do it, instead of looking for ways/reasons NOT to do it!

[Pirate]

I'm not sure that I agree with that. Like a hybrid when the EV is charged there is a computer controller that controlls the rate of charge and adjusts it on various parameters, like how far discharged ithe battery is, the battery temperature, the ambient temperature, and lots of other stuff. It is not just plug it in and stuff as much charge in it as you can as fast as you can. It is really tightly controlled by the onboard charge controller just like in a hybrid when the gas engine recharges the battery. Actually I would guess that a hybrid is even more complex of a charging scenario with both variable gas engine rpm and regeneritive braking involved.

Think of hybrid's as battery tenders. Your voltage goes down some while the gas motor keeps the charge up. Pure EV's can adjust voltage but only to a degree and its still draining, not recharging. If you are constantly draining the battery low and then charge you are actually damaging the battery life. Perhaps if you don't drain your battery low it may not be as detrimental.

[Mikey]

Lithium
hidesbehindsofa.gif

Got one of those under the seat, jury's out on that!!

[PMK]

Think of hybrid's as battery tenders. Your voltage goes down some while the gas motor keeps the charge up. Pure EV's can adjust voltage but only to a degree and its still draining, not recharging. If you are constantly draining the battery low and then charge you are actually damaging the battery life. Perhaps if you don't drain your battery low it may not be as detrimental.

Agree.
And the best part of a hybrid, my wife will still manage to get home, since there is no way she can forget to charge the battery.
Not saying her Japan build 2024 NX350H AWD is the do all, best ever vehicle. But for her use and trips it is a good fit.

Also reading a bit about these NX350 series and while supposedly identical, the Japanese built version are a better build than the Canadian built counterparts. Will be interesting how this too compares over time, especially regarding on board electronics and the drivetrain.

Whether cost effective over time, and how these subsidies, production cancelations by other manufacturers and production cutbacks from other manufacturers impact our decision remains to be seen.

[chris56]

the new Factory for the E Engines is finsh now ..(Austria)

https://www.rotax.com/detail/e-zukun...nskirchen.html

[Mikey]

the new Factory for the E Engines is finsh now ..(Austria)

https://www.rotax.com/detail/e-zukun...nskirchen.html

Chris, I am sure that the article was very good, but it didn't look like anything this dumb frog could decipher!!

[CopperSpyder]

this is the article translated below:

With the opening of the new R&D building in Gunskirchen, BRP-Rotax is setting an important milestone in its large-scale e-future. Equipped with state-of-the-art technology and infrastructure, future-proof innovative electric drive components are being developed and tested on around 7,000 m2. The company is thus ensuring a further technological upswing in Upper Austria and creating future-oriented jobs in the region.

Gunskirchen, October 04, 2023 - With its innovative drive systems "Made in Upper Austria", BRP-Rotax is the leading manufacturer of engines in the leisure and powersports sector. In addition to specializing in combustion engines for the powersports sector, the Gunskirchen-based company is also a pioneer in alternative drive models and proves this with projects such as the emission-free Lynx HySnow snowmobile with fuel cell or the powerful e-kart series. However, the Canadian parent company BRP is going one step further and will be introducing electric models as standard in every single vehicle line by the end of 2026. This pioneering strategy is also of crucial importance for BRP-Rotax. This is because the required electric drive components will be developed and tested in the new R&D building in Upper Austria in future.

New R&D building: heart of the global e-future in the heart of Upper Austria

"With the introduction of electric drives in all product lines, our parent company BRP is pursuing an ambitious goal for a more sustainable future in the world of powersports. The opening of the new R&D building in Gunskirchen is a decisive milestone in our joint electric journey. This is precisely where the required electric drive components are developed and extensively tested. Our state-of-the-art R&D building therefore forms the heart of the global company in the field of electromobility," says Wolfgang Rapberger, General Manager BRP-Rotax / Representative of the Management Board, Vice-President Global Sourcing & Operations Powertrain.

After a construction period of 14 months, the R&D building was opened this week by the BRP-Rotax management together with 250 R&D employees from Gunskirchen and Kottingbrunn (BRP-Rotax Vienna). Team Rotax also welcomed Thomas Uhr, Chief Technology Officer BRP, and Sebastien Martel, Chief Financial Officer BRP, as special guests of honor from Canada. Following the presentation and inspection of the building, the completion of the construction work was celebrated with a classic Austrian Leberkäse snack.

The new R&D building on the BRP-Rotax company premises will now be put into operation in October. Covering an area of around 7,000 m2 and three floors, it includes an EV development laboratory and workshop, test infrastructure with sophisticated EV test benches, component test benches and important office space. The building also offers space for around 200 highly qualified employees.

State-of-the-art technology and local expertise for a technological upswing

"Equipped with state-of-the-art technology and infrastructure, our experts in the new R&D building are making a substantial contribution to technological change in the leisure and powersports sector. To this end, we are using our technical know-how and innovation capabilities to implement the best strategy for the development of electrically powered products," explains Stefan Arndt, General Manager BRP-Rotax / Member of the Management Board, Vice-President R&D Powertrain.

With decisive investments in infrastructure, BRP-Rotax is not only ensuring a further technological upswing in Upper Austria, but will also create a large number of future-oriented jobs in the region over the coming years.