Ryker 900 will not start - any recommendations?

[MDRyker]

What I know so far:
Battery good, engine cranks
Display activates as normal with no error messages, nor any stored codes, since reading codes does not appear in menu.
Previously engine was running and soon after it stalled out. Could not restart.
Thought fuel could have been contaminated, so drained it out and did find water and Phase separated fuel (due to Ethanol)
Checked to ensure fuel pump was running upon activating starter switch, subsequently tested fuel pressure and it was about 55 psi.

Seems good gas getting to injectors with correct pressure, but engine just cranks for about 10 seconds with no detonation of fuel (Repeated several times with same result (I guess I am insane expecting the engine to start doing same thing over and over).

Any recommendations?

[Knizar]

Last summer 2022 I had a similar problem with my 2020RTL. "I know, completely different engine", anyway others on the This Form suggested WOT (wide open throttle). I was skeptical, so I took it to the dealer. Picked it up a day later and asked what was the problem. Tech told me he held the throttle wide open, WOT until it started, and then hooked it up to their machine (BUDS I think) and it readjusted some thing. Beats Me, but haven't had any problem since for over 11K miles.

[Raven]

I wouldn't try WOT on a Ryker.
With the centrifugal clutch, if it starts you are gone.
If the parking brake is on, something is going to break.
If you hold the brake on and go WOT it will probably throw a fault.

[EdMat]

I wouldn't try WOT on a Ryker.
With the centrifugal clutch, if it starts you are gone.
If the parking brake is on, something is going to break.
If you hold the brake on and go WOT it will probably throw a fault.

Not sure about a Ryker but for the F3's or RT's, if you hold WOT while cranking it just opens the butterflies and cleans it out without starting.

[greer]

Check the spark plugs?

Sarah

[Mikey]

Just pick the back end up and try the WOT!!! It's getting spark, good fuel, air, I would think if the fuels getting to the cylinders, it should fire.

[Redbeard]

Have you tried cranking it with some starter fluid? Should the problem be fuel related it should try and run on the starter fluid, even just for a couple of seconds, the starter fluid should ignite. If it doesn't attempt to run pull a spark plug out, grounding out the electrode and turning the engine over to see if you have any spark. The engine needs both spark and fuel to run. And double check that the engine kill switch hasn't been "bumped" to off. (I have accidently touched my 1330 engine and the emergency off switch works well). I am not familar with the 900 engine, but start with the basics of fuel and ignition.

2023 red Rtlimited

[MDRyker]

Thanks a few good pointers to start off with. Will let you all know what happens. Think I would try the starter fluid first to see if I got ignition. Then try to rocket out of garage with WOT (and as suggested lift rear end)

[MDRyker]

Updates:
Starter fluid did not work.
Tried the WOT and it just cranked. I found that with Throttle full open the engine cranks until the kill switch is turned off, before I had 5 sec shots at it.
Also checked all fuses and all is good. The fuse for the fuel pump is shared with Injectors and Ignition coils, so unlikely power is a problem. They all interface with ECM so at first glance one would say ECM, however many functions with ECM work.
I been avoiding lifting front hood to gain access to injectors and coil pack/spark plugs (not a fun activity), but I do have the shop manual and it provides the steps.

Does anyone know if there is an interlock or a sensor that must be satisfied to allow engine start?
Plus, any more recommendations?

[Mikey]

I've only test drove a Ryker, it was a blast!! Do they still have the fob that you have to put over the post to ride it? Is that in any way out of place, and will it still crank if it's not on its post? The thing seems like you have no spark to me! It should fire on a snoot full of fuel, if it has spark! Good Luck!!! If you got a big gulp of bad gas, it could have fouled the plugs to the point it will not spark, you go to look under her skirt and see what's going on.

[Peter Aawen]

..... Does anyone know if there is an interlock or a sensor that must be satisfied to allow engine start?
Plus, any more recommendations?

You gotta wonder, don't you?? Maybe there's something simple going on (or NOT going on! ) that's so basic &/or simple we've all just been over-looking it?!

So, just throwing a few random thoughties out there, in no real order or likelihood of involvement, rather just some 'thinking out loud' type thoughts in the hope that it might trigger an idea or better thought from others...

• Could it be that the kill-switch isn't working properly?? I'd guess not since you've mentioned it functioning earlier in that post above; but hey, it wouldn't be the first time one of those archaic anachronisms that are foisted on modern fuel injected engined motorcycles as outdated and redundant left-over safety features from gravity fed gas tanked & carby engined motorcycles had failed, so it's possibly worth checking further?
• Have you been trying any of these start failures with your foot firmly on the brake pedal??
• Are your brakes working properly &/or is the brake pedal micro-switch dirty/gummed up in any way??
• Are your brake lights working?
• What about trying pulling, checking, and re-seating all the fuses & relays you can find?
• Did you get ANY attempt at firing from spraying Starter Fluid down the Air Intake?
• Do you have a Max-mount & rear Pillion Seat? Could the passenger sensor switch (under the left foit-peg??) be shorted/acting up in some weird way?

OR, going back to fuel &/or fuel supply, you mentioned earlier that you had fuel pressure & that you'd looked for dodgy fuel in the tank; but could there be a blockage or contamination in the fuel lines?? Given no other solutions, do you think that it could be worth your while disconnecting them at the engine end and at any filter/s before blowing air thru them backwards to ensure they're not blocked; & checking that, upon reconnection, the fuel getting thru is 'good, fresh fuel'? Might it also pay to check/change any fuel filter you can readily access, too??

And that thought ^ brought to mind that some of the early Rykers had dodgy/noisy fuel pumps; have you checked that your fuel pump is actually pushing ENOUGH pressure through the entire fuel system??

Sorry that I can't really offer anything more than some random thoughties, but maybe they'll prompt someone else's thoughtie, or possibly juuust might give you an idea that might help?! Or maybe not




But hey, (and this is NOT aimed at you MD!) while I know that you are far & away a tiny majority on this Forum in sooo many ways, for those of you nay-sayers who are out there thinking 'what bloody use was anything in that post?' (and I know you're out there, even if you aren't one of those who juuust hasta send me messages, or even more pitifully, send anonymous messages saying so! ) if you have even the vaguest concept of how hard it can be to troubleshoot odd stuff like this when you're standing right there within kicking distance of the bloody machine, looking at the freaking thing, and scratching your head between every failure, instead of just sitting at home behind your keyboard feeling all high & mighty cos you could clearly do so much better, but you won't share anything so you can sit there all smugly maintaining your sense of superiority (or more likely, just in case you might embarrass yourself if you're wrong . And besides, it's not happening to you/your machine - THIS TIME round, is it now? ) just maybe you should just try to imagine for a moment how much harder it might be actually attempting to help do that sort of troubleshooting over the interweb, OR even worse how frustrating it could be asking for help on a Forum like this and then & getting diddly squat or 'nothing but crickets' back! At least when I'm not out there living my life as best as I can, I'm in here contributing as best I can, even if it doesn't help solve anything THIS TIME round... At least I've TRIED to help - and now I'll climb down off my soap box...
Still, if the cap fits, think about it... Just Sayin'

[MDRyker]

After playing a bit more and checking DEFF key, engine will not crank at all with it removed, plus get message to check the key.
For short period got a VSS code C1290 which appears in several places on this forum indicating high or low VCM voltage. I thought I heard an ignition when having a battery charger connected (but might have been my mind playing tricks with me).
So going to let it charge overnight for an entire new day tomorrow!

[MDRyker]

Peter thank you for taking the time to recommend things to check, with that said.

Could it be that the kill-switch - computer does respond or not depending on position (think I am good there)
Have you been trying any of these start failures with your foot firmly on the brake pedal?? YES, sometimes really hard. Thought I read in manual about brake fluid low causing issues. Still trying to check it (difficult to see level)
Are your brakes working properly &/or is the brake pedal micro-switch dirty/gummed up in any way?? Yes, upon depression light illuminate and with depressed ECM allow engine to crank over.
Are your brake lights working? Yup
What about trying pulling, checking, and re-seating all the fuses & relays you can find? I checked all fuses but will pull each and also the relays.
Did you get ANY attempt at firing from spraying Starter Fluid down the Air Intake? Nope!
Do you have a Max-mount & rear Pillion Seat? Could the passenger sensor switch (under the left foot-peg??) be shorted/acting up in some weird way? I will check it out, but if engaged I think I get a message on display. I'll see if I get it.

As for fuel delivery, I am concern maybe bad gas is in the Injector rail, however, if nothing happened with starting fluid, kinda discounts fuel delivery. Plus, messaged pressure was about 55 psi.

Also check my last post regarding VSS error Code C1290 associated to Voltage to VSS.

I agree some posts miss the target but also their comments are still appreciated. I am highly technical but now being over 70 sometimes I can't even add to number together w/o a calculator. And I am glad I have a calculator rather than a slide ruler.

[Peter Aawen]

Thanks MD, appreciate your understanding & consideration, as well as the question-by-question response. I was just throwing things out there, and also wondered about the battery, but I do feel as tho I'm always going on about how critical good batteries are on these things &/or saying something about 'check/charge the battery' in my responses, so I was hoping someone else would raise that this time around!

And now that you've raised that particular spectre....

These Rykers really ARE pretty hard on batteries (Rykers & Spyders both! ) AND they require a LOT of start-up power to get all the computer's running at the same time as cranking, so many have found that even just a 'mildly tired' battery can start producing all sorts of issues &/or failure - VSS codes often being a prominent feature amongst them!

I've seen many 'reasonable' batteries in Spyder's/Ryker's that've STILL had all sorts of error messages and issues pop up due to that slightly tired battery; and even tho most will say that staying above 11.5 volts under load means the battery is still OK, because of the errors/failures I've seen in Spyders/Rykers & other highly computer controlled vehicles, I now make it a practice to tell people that if their battery voltage drops AT ALL below 12 volts while the engine is cranking/attempting to start, then it is most likely either the cause of all their current issues now or it will be a cause of their issues very soon! (Didja see that sneaky 'current' pun/play on words in there, huh?? Didja, didja?? )

And I also spend a lot of time warning people that while battery tenders/maintainers are a great idea if they only infrequently ride, but if they ride for more than an hour or so at highway speeds at least once a week, then they really shouldn't keep their battery on a tender between rides, as doing that might hide the gradual decline in their battery's condition/capability to start reliably until one day they are out there an hour or more of a ride away from home & 'suddenly' they caught out!

So yeah, as you mentioned, it sounds like it's time to check/charge the battery - and as you planned, a good overnight charge is a great place to start; altho I'd then suggest that if you can't/can't get it load tested properly, at least try checking the voltage actually WHILE you are cranking the starter when you next try to start the engine. As mentioned above, if your battery voltage drops anything much below 12 volts while doing that, there's a good chance it needs attention if not replacing, and it may very well be the underlying issue causing all your start problems.

Nb: If you DO end up getting a new battery, now that the OEM Yuasa batteries are becoming a lot more of a gamble & some are failing waaaay too soon, I reckon it's a good idea to get a quality battery with better capacity/higher Cold Cranking Amps that'll fit (yes, they do exist! ) and when you do get it, put it on a quality battery charger/maintainer for AT LEAST 8 hours BEFORE installing it, even if the retailer says it's already been fully charged! Installing a new battery with anything less than a good, long, deep charge is simply dooming yourself to spending more $$ on a replacement far sooner than is strictly necessary!

Good Luck!

[nightfalcon]

My guess would be the battery. I've had trouble on my bikes with batteries that will turn the bike over but wont allow it to start. A load test is the only way to properly check it. If it's below 10.5v under load the battery likely has a dead cell

A bad battery can show a false voltage when it has surface charge, this occurs for a length of time after a battery has been charging. It can read a full voltage of 12.6 even though it has a bad cell.

Next I would be pulling the plugs...or at least one to see what they look like.

[MDRyker]

Peter and Nightfalcon,

I do have a battery monitor wired into bike so can see voltage at rest and cranking. And voltage does drop down to 10.5VDC.

BLUFF:
Charged battery along with a car battery and several attempt to start while adding starter fluid got motor to run.
after idling for a while got gas uptake to make its way to the injectors without adding any more starter fluid.
Someone mentioned to raise rear end to allow rear wheel to spin so I could increase RPMs (MISSTAKE!!). That introduced faults for ABS and brake system and put me into the Limp Mode. A few minutes ago pulled the key and disconnected battery, in an attempt to clear it out.
See what happens. Nothing like causing new problem by self-infliction! According to manual the ABS monitors front right wheel rotation and since there was none it caused a computer conflict. It was saying to itself but the rear wheel was spinning. Saying something is wrong in the Wizard of Oz.
As for replacing the battery already in the works last night purchased a Lithium battery 20ah and 400 CCA. Likely this is the solution. Hard to believe the Ryker is SO sensitive to battery voltage.
Haven't got the new battery yet and now waiting to see if errors remain.

[MDRyker]

Peter
Also, thanks for the tip on pre charging the new battery.
I have another Ryker 900 with no issues at present (knock on wood). Guessing it might be wise to buy a new battery for it as well.
I been thinking with my engineer hat on which typically complicates things. Especially fixing something that isn't broken. Thought was to separate starter power from Engine power. That is another battery smaller to handle electronics. But thinking more about it as I write it is getting more complicated for charging (but that would be a diode). Well, I save this thought for the future!

[Peter Aawen]

Peter and Nightfalcon,

I do have a battery monitor wired into bike so can see voltage at rest and cranking. And voltage does drop down to 10.5VDC.

BLUFF:
Charged battery along with a car battery and several attempt to start while adding starter fluid got motor to run.
after idling for a while got gas uptake to make its way to the injectors without adding any more starter fluid.
Someone mentioned to raise rear end to allow rear wheel to spin so I could increase RPMs (MISSTAKE!!). That introduced faults for ABS and brake system and put me into the Limp Mode. A few minutes ago pulled the key and disconnected battery, in an attempt to clear it out.
See what happens. Nothing like causing new problem by self-infliction! According to manual the ABS monitors front right wheel rotation and since there was none it caused a computer conflict. It was saying to itself but the rear wheel was spinning. Saying something is wrong in the Wizard of Oz.
As for replacing the battery already in the works last night purchased a Lithium battery 20ah and 400 CCA. Likely this is the solution. Hard to believe the Ryker is SO sensitive to battery voltage.
Haven't got the new battery yet and now waiting to see if errors remain.

That error will likely go away once you can get all three wheels turning at the same speed again, so it shouldn't be a long term problem...

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Peter
Also, thanks for the tip on pre charging the new battery.
I have another Ryker 900 with no issues at present (knock on wood). Guessing it might be wise to buy a new battery for it as well.
I been thinking with my engineer hat on which typically complicates things. Especially fixing something that isn't broken. Thought was to separate starter power from Engine power. That is another battery smaller to handle electronics. But thinking more about it as I write it is getting more complicated for charging (but that would be a diode). Well, I save this thought for the future!

with not fixing things that aren't broke ...... I recently had to deal with a car battery that was 7 years old ..... hadn't been used for three years ..... and was totally dead .... a 12v tester wouldn't light .... so I'm frugal and figuered it wouldn't hurt to try and revive it .... I started with a 25 Amp charger ( and batt. maintainer function ) and also had a 75 amp JUMP start ability .... The Battery wouldn't charge & I couldn't get the car to start using my car battery while increasing the engine revs .... Soooooo I tried my OPTIMATE battery maintainer, which has a DE-SULFATE function, it took 5 days to put a charge into that battery. ..... that was 5 mos. ago .... the battery is still holding a charge and will start the car .... Good luck ....Mike

[Mikey]

Sorry for giving you the idea of jacking it up to turn the wheel. I forget that this new stuff doesn't like it. I can jack my rt up and spin the wheel for days and not get a code. glad to hear you got it to fire. Sounds like you had a good amount of junk in that tank of gas, you got to run them things more!!

[AndysF3S]

Once the engine is running again it may be a good idea to put some gasoline conditioner in the tank to help clean up any left overs from the fuel separation in the tank and injectors.

[MDRyker]

All
Thanks for the expert advice.
Today with car battery attached got her starting and running but still in Limp mode. Got my boat out of garage blocking the bike. Got her out on the road going at bursts from 0 to 60mph. Errors disappeared, and Limp mode took a bit more time to finally give up the ghost. New lithium battery arrived today and per Peter it is on a charger overnight. Swap over tomorrow.


In retrospect not sure what actual caused it to die. Bad fuel or Battery going bad. So, lesson learned here keep check on battery status. And as far as the fuel I am blessed with Ethanol gas. I have 2 boats, and both hate it, so adding the Ryker to the hate list. so surely will add fuel conditioner to make everyone happy.
One more thing, the service manual contains a limited listing of fault codes especially in the "C" category. And the other thing is cost of the BUDS Tester. I guess this forum is the backup version BUDDY'S.

[Peter Aawen]

I liked the 'BUDDY'S' pun It's certainly better'n BUDDETTE! . And it could've been either or a combination if both that caused the failure - but if you've resolved it, lessons have been learned, & things are now working.... then I reckon it's probably time to chalk this all up to experience & move on.

BTW, here's a post from another Spyder Forum about Lithium Batteries (it's not my post, but it is by someone I respect & who I believe knows what they're on about, especially when it comes to Spyders & their electricals!)

A lithium battery has an unloaded terminal voltage of 14.4V. An AGM lead acid battery has a unloaded terminal voltage of 12.8V. Your regulator will be set up to charge an AGM battery to 13.8V (the float voltage) which is short of the lithium battery's fully charged voltage.

Also, a lithium battery will suck as much current as it can get when charging from a constant voltage charger (your regulator). Things will get hot. It should be charged with a dedicated lithium battery charger, which provides constant current until the lithium battery is fully charged.

So, some electronic intervention will be needed.

You can fit a lithium battery straight in. It will probably work, but not ideally and probably with some problems.

Now I wouldn't expect you'd see 'problems' per-se any time soon after fitting up a good quality well charged lithium battery; and maybe some of the circuitry embedded in most lithium battery cases will help mitigate any issues developing over time, but in my experience and as per the quoted post, with a lithium battery installed in your Spyder you should be at least aware of the potential for 'less than ideal' operation over time and at least try to give your lithium battery a proper charge every now and then - but then we are told that they do last longer if you keep them/operate them within the right temperature range (23°C - 26° C or there-abouts... 25° C is frequently espoused as 'ideal' ) and largely between 20 & 80% of full charge.

There's a lot of info out there about them if you want to go searching (both here & elsewhere, some of it quite technical &/or academic! ) and it might pay you to do some reading/research the best charger/maintainers to use with your lithium battery.

Over to you!

[nightfalcon]

All
Thanks for the expert advice.
Today with car battery attached got her starting and running but still in Limp mode. Got my boat out of garage blocking the bike. Got her out on the road going at bursts from 0 to 60mph. Errors disappeared, and Limp mode took a bit more time to finally give up the ghost. New lithium battery arrived today and per Peter it is on a charger overnight. Swap over tomorrow.


In retrospect not sure what actual caused it to die. Bad fuel or Battery going bad. So, lesson learned here keep check on battery status. And as far as the fuel I am blessed with Ethanol gas. I have 2 boats, and both hate it, so adding the Ryker to the hate list. so surely will add fuel conditioner to make everyone happy.
One more thing, the service manual contains a limited listing of fault codes especially in the "C" category. And the other thing is cost of the BUDS Tester. I guess this forum is the backup version BUDDY'S.

Batteries can be fickle things. I've gone a decade with zero battery problems but my late Tiger 800XC went through three in 2years! Just luck of the draw I guess. Great news you've got it running though

[Mikey]

I am a firm believer in Marine Stabile, have been using it ever since the government started shoving this darn gas down our throats. I think it works, using your toys more often would be better, but sometimes things get in the way of that. I think between the battery, and stale gas you had a no-win deck of cards. Glad you're on top of that!