Parking brake stuck and engine won't turn over - any ideas??

[DanY]

Filled my 2019 F3L up today. When I tried to start it - nothing. The parking brake light stayed on. Gauges lit up but nothing when I hit the mode button and pushed in the brake pedal. Motor wouldn't even try to turn over. Stuck in first gear.

Are the 2 things related?

[BajaRon]

Dead battery?

[Peter Aawen]

Is it an SE or an SM?? Cos if it's an SE, even if the dash SAYS it's still in gear, cos the engine's not running so there's no oil pressure to engage the clutch, it should still roll, just so long as there's enough battery juice in there to release the Park Brake... But if not, see below.

Firstly tho, and I'm not trying to be funny, but many of us have been caught at least once... - Are you sure that your Kill Switch is in the Run Position??

If not that, then back to the battery - these Spyder things are EXTREMELY Power Hungry, so have you checked your battery lately?? How old is it, and do you ALWAYS put it on a tender when not riding?? That can be a trap that'll let you start it at home; go for a ride, usually not too long (a good charging system should get a low battery up to useful after about 30 minutes of good running ) like down to the servo to fill up; and then not start again because the charge from the tender was hiding a dead &/or dying battery &/or a charge system that wasn't working properly and once you started it the first time, the battery just didn't get enough replenishing charge to start it up after the next time you shut it down!! Again, many of us have been caught out on that one too!!

Good Luck!

[DanY]

Checked the kill switch. Not the problem. Rode 175 miles today before this incident. I ride every couple of weeks so I don't use a tender.

Perhaps I should!

Any other possible solutions?

Yes, I have an SE.

[Peter Aawen]

Thanks for that info DanY.

It does sorta cancel out the obvious (or maybe not so.. ) problem, but it doesn't remove the battery from the list of potential issues - just makes it a little less likely!

However, I'd still be getting a load test on your battery, especially if you try a jump start for now (if at all possible) and it works!

As for using a tender, if you're riding regularly, with no more than a couple of weeks between rides that are more than 30 mins or so long and at a reasonable speed, then I'd be a bit wary of going down that path, simply cos it CAN hide an old/dying battery until you're out on the road/away from home and it dies, so you end up stuck??

That said, how old is your battery?

[Bfromla]

Definitely check battery. Add some star washers after load testing. Is helpful screen did not black out or other odd views; lines -1/2 screen & others. Double check if zeroed trip meters. By chance were you trying to get to the rally in Jefferson?

DC398872-6280-450F-A771-E2EFF1621920.jpg

[DanY]

I did try to jump start the battery from a PU. That didn't make any difference. Engine didn't make a sound.

[Peter Aawen]

I did try to jump start the battery from a PU. That didn't make any difference. Engine didn't make a sound.

Hmmm, it is starting to sound like there's an electrical fault somewhere - one of the main Relays dislodged or failed; in the Hand Grip maybe; or possibly the Starter itself??

I'm just guessin' now!!

Mind you, if your battery IS dead or really flat, because these Spyder things are so Power Hungry, it can take a really Loooong time connected to another battery &/or even connected to an already running car (which you really SHOULDN'T do, not if you don't want to pay for a new computer or two!! ) before you get enough juice transferred into the Spyder battery, that is, IF YOU EVER DO!! For some reason, most Dead batteries tend not to take on any power at all!

Over to you!

[BertRemington]

(1) is the LCD screen making the usual shift in format when you push the Mode button?
(2) are the various speed/tach indicator lights winking out after the usual time delay?
(3) is the fuel pump going through its usual priming sequence?

[BertRemington]

Please explain how this abnormality occurred:

Stuck in first gear.

Yes, I have an SE.

[Peter Aawen]

Please explain how this abnormality occurred:

The way I understand this is that if you stop your SE Spyder with it in gear and shut down the engine, then, at least with my SE5's display AND that of every 1330 powered SE6 Spyders that I've seen/ridden too, the display will remain showing that you're in First Gear UNTIL you start the engine again - then even tho it's still in gear, albeit with the clutch disconnecting the gear from the driveline, the moment that engine spins over, the Spyder's immediately selects Neutral and so the dash immediately shows that it's now selected Neutral. But that doesn't happen UNTIL the engine actually starts, and since DanY's engine won't start...

So I'd say that DanY's dash still SHOWS that his Spyder is in First, even tho it's pretty unlikely that it really is only cos the clutch has disengaged! So likely the only reason his Spyder doesn't roll readily atm is that there's not enough juice to dis-engage the Park Brake. Those of us who practice always selecting Neutral before shutting down probably won't ever notice this unless we go looking, but it does happen!

That's why I added my "even if the dash SAYS it's still in gear..." comment when I first replied, even if I didn't add the rest of that explanation.

[BertRemington]

Yeah I know how the Spyder transmission works. I wanted an explanation of why it was so difficult to operate a paddle shift into Neutral before turning off the engine. Maybe this is a Kill switch ignition off kinda guy?

[DanY]

This is actually the first time I've ever heard that I need to shift to neutral before turning off the bike.

I've always just set the parking brake and turned off the motor. I never use the kill switch.

When I start, I turn the ignition switch on, punch the mode button and push down on the brake pedal before depressing the starter button. Never been a problem before on my 60,000 miles on various Spyders.

Tonight, I was able to disengage the parking brake manually (the parking brake indicator on the dash still shows it engaged) and then roll it to a parking spot instead of in front of a gas pump. Put rocks behind each tire to keep it from rolling, then my wife and I jumped on her 2019 F3L, rode 1.5 hrs to my house, got my trailer and drove back 1.5 hrs to load my bike on my trailer, then back home.

So if I was able to roll the bike to a parking spot, then roll it onto my trailer, am I really in neutral even though the dash shows first gear?

[Mikey]

Could the micro switch in the brake pedal be dirty? And it's not giving the OK to start?

[Peter Aawen]

....

So if I was able to roll the bike to a parking spot, then roll it onto my trailer, am I really in neutral even though the dash shows first gear?

Well.... Sorta YES, but NOT REALLY!

With the SE's, they don't go into Neutral UNTIL you select it; OR if you try to start it while it's still in gear - in which case it'll only select Neutral almost immediately AFTER the engine starts cranking oil pressure. There was a time when I knew how little oil pressure it actually needed to do that, but my forgettory works much better'n it used to these days & I can't remember what it is right now.

However, the point is that if you shut an SE down in gear (with the Key or the Kill Switch) it will REMAIN in gear BUT because you've got no oil pressure from the engine turning over anymore, the clutch will disengage (with the SE6's anyway, the SE5's with their Centrifugal Clutches rely on revs! ) making it SEEM like it's in Neutral - only it's not really!

So until you start the engine up again, the disengaged clutch means the gear that it's still in is not engaged to the Output shaft/drive YET and you can wheel your Spyder around, cos it relies on having SOME oil pressure TO actually engage/disengage the gearbox; and because the engine doesn't like to start in gear, as soon as you get SOME oil pressure from cranking it over with the starter, even tho you left it in gear when you shut it down, it'll almost immediately shift into Neutral - or if you like, if you shut it down in gear, then as soon as there's no oil pressure anymore, it'll SEEM like it's in Neutral, but actually it's still in gear, only the clutch has disengaged the gearbox from the output shaft due to the lack of oil pressure (or lack of revs with the SE5's ) and it won't shift to Neutral UNTIL you try to start it again and it gets some oil pressure during the cranking process.

Make sense??

[DanY]

Could the micro switch in the brake pedal be dirty? And it's not giving the OK to start?

Where would I find the switch you are referring to?

[DanY]

Well.... Sorta YES, but NOT REALLY!

With the SE's, they don't go into Neutral UNTIL you select it; OR if you try to start it while it's still in gear - in which case it'll only select Neutral almost immediately AFTER the engine starts cranking oil pressure. There was a time when I knew how little oil pressure it actually needed to do that, but my forgettory works much better'n it used to these days & I can't remember what it is right now.

However, the point is that if you shut an SE down in gear (with the Key or the Kill Switch) it will REMAIN in gear BUT because you've got no oil pressure from the engine turning over anymore, the clutch will disengage (with the SE6's anyway, the SE5's with their Centrifugal Clutches rely on revs! ) making it SEEM like it's in Neutral - only it's not really!

So until you start the engine up again, the disengaged clutch means the gear that it's still in is not engaged to the Output shaft/drive YET and you can wheel your Spyder around, cos it relies on having SOME oil pressure TO actually engage/disengage the gearbox; and because the engine doesn't like to start in gear, as soon as you get SOME oil pressure from cranking it over with the starter, even tho you left it in gear when you shut it down, it'll almost immediately shift into Neutral - or if you like, if you shut it down in gear, then as soon as there's no oil pressure anymore, it'll SEEM like it's in Neutral, but actually it's still in gear, only the clutch has disengaged the gearbox from the output shaft due to the lack of oil pressure (or lack of revs with the SE5's ) and it won't shift to Neutral UNTIL you try to start it again and it gets some oil pressure during the cranking process.

Make sense??

Peter, Yes i believe so. As I understand it, it's better for me to change my habit of turning off the bike in 1st and put the bike in neutral before turning it off, but it's not the worst habit I have

[BertRemington]

Yeah that makes sense but here's a shorter version.

The SE6 clutch is pressure-engaged and requires the engine to be running to drive the HCM oil pump, which is separate from the engine oil pump. When the engine isn't running the clutch disengages (releases) independent of gear selection.

As you come to a stop at your parking place, presumably with both hands on the grips, the transmission automatically shifts into 1st gear and the clutch disengages. A touch of your finger on the paddle shifter puts it in Neutral. You then need to remove your hand from the grip to engage the parking brake or the nanny will complain when the ignition is turned off.

Why does the nanny complain? Because the Spyder will roll freely unless the parking brake is engaged even if you didn't shift into Neutral.

I have to verify on my Spyder but I believe the Kill switch bypasses the usual ignition off sequence.

And removing the ignition key at the end of your ride improves your DESS experience.

[gkamer]

Well.... Sorta YES, but NOT REALLY!

With the SE's, they don't go into Neutral UNTIL you select it; OR if you try to start it while it's still in gear - in which case it'll only select Neutral almost immediately AFTER the engine starts cranking oil pressure. There was a time when I knew how little oil pressure it actually needed to do that, but my forgettory works much better'n it used to these days & I can't remember what it is right now.

However, the point is that if you shut an SE down in gear (with the Key or the Kill Switch) it will REMAIN in gear BUT because you've got no oil pressure from the engine turning over anymore, the clutch will disengage (with the SE6's anyway, the SE5's with their Centrifugal Clutches rely on revs! ) making it SEEM like it's in Neutral - only it's not really!

So until you start the engine up again, the disengaged clutch means the gear that it's still in is not engaged to the Output shaft/drive YET and you can wheel your Spyder around, cos it relies on having SOME oil pressure TO actually engage/disengage the gearbox; and because the engine doesn't like to start in gear, as soon as you get SOME oil pressure from cranking it over with the starter, even tho you left it in gear when you shut it down, it'll almost immediately shift into Neutral - or if you like, if you shut it down in gear, then as soon as there's no oil pressure anymore, it'll SEEM like it's in Neutral, but actually it's still in gear, only the clutch has disengaged the gearbox from the output shaft due to the lack of oil pressure (or lack of revs with the SE5's ) and it won't shift to Neutral UNTIL you try to start it again and it gets some oil pressure during the cranking process.

Make sense??

Great explanation as usual.

[BertRemington]

How to test brake light switch: push the brake pedal and the brake lamps illuminate. Ignition on or off doesn't matter.

Also push horn button doesn't matter ignition on or off.

[BertRemington]

Verify Kill switch position by operating off and on. Yeah happened to me waiting at an intersection resting my hands on the grips. Cost $50 tow and half-day fault isolation.

[Isopedella]

Re selecting neutral before shutting down.
Now this is why I like to read the threads of Blokes having the odd spot of bother, and the remedies suggested, as ya learn stuff.
I'm guilty too. Obvious when I think about it.
Dont do it in any other vehicles so im not sure why I started down that road with my F3, but no more.

[DanY]

How to test brake light switch: push the brake pedal and the brake lamps illuminate. Ignition on or off doesn't matter.

Also push horn button doesn't matter ignition on or off.

Brake lights come on. Horn works.

[DanY]

(1) is the LCD screen making the usual shift in format when you push the Mode button?
(2) are the various speed/tach indicator lights winking out after the usual time delay?
(3) is the fuel pump going through its usual priming sequence?

Yes to all three

[DanY]

Apparently, the battery was bad so I bought and installed new battery and tried to start.

Unfortunately, no difference

Anything else to try?