Anyone verified Aftermarket Performance Gains?

[BertRemington]

Well Peter this has been an adventure and a learning opportunity for me.

I was familiar with 3-wire Hall effect sensors (we use them on the SCTA roadster) and 2-wire ABS sensors (inductive reluctance) but not 2-wire Hall effect sensors. So after research, like the 3-wire sensors, the 2-wire sensors produce a square wave...but it's current (6,17 ma) not voltage (0,5 v).

So Step 1 rather than physically moving the sensors just create a buffer circuit to copy the rear wheel square wave to the front wheel.

Then there's the ECM thing. Except it isn't the ECM it's the TCM. Using a 2018 FE-S as baseline here's what I found:

79T and 89T ECM: same p/n
79T and 89T VCM: same p/n
79T and 89T Console: same p/n
79T TCM 420666756 89T TCM 420266879

So what are the TCM differences. Obviously various coefficients must change. Perhaps they are hard-wired (ie resistors) rather than firmware.

So has Jase at Rotax tried swapping TCMs?

PS I'm looking for an F3-S TCM on eBay right now and if I find one I'm going to buy it (they are the same 2015=>2022).

[larryd]

Well Peter this has been an adventure and a learning opportunity for me.

I was familiar with 3-wire Hall effect sensors (we use them on the SCTA roadster) and 2-wire ABS sensors (inductive reluctance) but not 2-wire Hall effect sensors. So after research, like the 3-wire sensors, the 2-wire sensors produce a square wave...but it's current (6,17 ma) not voltage (0,5 v).

So Step 1 rather than physically moving the sensors just create a buffer circuit to copy the rear wheel square wave to the front wheel.

Then there's the ECM thing. Except it isn't the ECM it's the TCM. Using a 2018 FE-S as baseline here's what I found:

79T and 89T ECM: same p/n
79T and 89T VCM: same p/n
79T and 89T Console: same p/n
79T TCM 420666756 89T TCM 705502187

So what are the TCM differences. Obviously various coefficients must change. Perhaps they are hard-wired (ie resistors) rather than firmware.

So has Jase at Rotax tried swapping TCMs?

PS I'm looking for an F3-S TCM on eBay right now and if I find one I'm going to buy it (they are the same 2015=>2022).

BertR. If you want a 89 T rear sprocket and matching belt to "play" with let me know...larryd

[BertRemington]

Larry -- how about this? I send you a 2016 F3-T 89T TCM (I confirmed 89T by p/n and they were selling the 89T sprocket from the same Spyder) and you see if it works. I should have the TCM (shipped from FL within 2 weeks).

PS I made a mistake on 89T TCM p/n which is 420266879 (I entered the 89T sprocket p/n -- corrected).

[BertRemington]

LarryD -- the F3s and RTs use different TCMs and ECMs. But then again you don't have an RT ECM anymore -- you have a Monster ECM. So knowing all of the above maybe you want to give Monster a call and see what they think?

[BertRemington]

LarryD -- I just realized my offer might have been misunderstood. I'm not selling the 89T TCM. I'm offering to loan it to you. I'll pay postage out, you see if you can get it to work, and if it does we can go from there. If it doesn't then just send it back to me. If instead of your testing it and you want to forward it on to Monster I'm fine with that. This is a lark for me. I want to see if we can get ordinary Spyders to work with the 89T sprocket.

[mandytuning]

My pv3 have an option for dyno.

[BertRemington]

mandytuning -- do you know why the 2014-2015 RTs weren't supported? And does the PowerVision update the ECM only or does it also update the TCM?

Edit ----------

Answered first question. The Power Commander V is for 2014-2015 RTs although marked as Discontinued. And it turns out I just happen to have an extra AT-200. Hmmm

Very unlikely to update the TCM. I'm getting the feeling Bosch has that locked down.

[larryd]

LarryD -- I just realized my offer might have been misunderstood. I'm not selling the 89T TCM. I'm offering to loan it to you. I'll pay postage out, you see if you can get it to work, and if it does we can go from there. If it doesn't then just send it back to me. If instead of your testing it and you want to forward it on to Monster I'm fine with that. This is a lark for me. I want to see if we can get ordinary Spyders to work with the 89T sprocket.

I'm in PA and the riding season is just starting and last till mid Oct...I'm great with mechanical things but not real techy...I'd rather send you the belt and sprocket, on my dime, and you can work on it at your leisure...larryd

[BertRemington]

And I have too many Spyder and non-Spyder projects going on. First El Mirage event is less than a month away and the Lakebed is Open! I'm going to chase down the guys on this thread and see if they want to contact Monster to see if there's any interest there https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...50#post1658150 Since I don't have a Monster tune and won't be getting one I don't feel right about cold-calling them. But I want to see if my 89T TCM analysis is correct (I was wrong about OBD -- BRP uses proprietary messages -- that cost me $100s).

[MagYukon]

Peter -- dang I forgot the Spyder electronics didn't like wheel speed differences. But Monster publishes dynamometer results https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b...a4eae1~mv2.png so there must be some means of obtaining measurements.

larryd -- Monster requires some airbox changes but still retain a comfortable sound level. In your discussions with them did they say anything about more extensive airbox changes that would increase sound level as well as power?

Bert, I haven't seen any answers to your questions.

I had an 2016 F3T with the stage 2 Monster Fuel Injection Tune.

As Larry was saying, no difference in fuel milleage if not better (compare to same ride with a friend who doesn't have any tune).

The air box mod is only 2 holes in the cover. No really difference in sound in my opinion unles you are taking it to really high revs.

i Think the tune might be even better in HP gain if you mod also your exhaust system, but I didn't go that way on mine.

Overall, I was really happy with the tune. Shifting was better and also acceleration.

[troop]

I can tell you that the two holes in the intake cover do something. I currently run a PV3 with custom map, modded airbox lid-K&N filter, Two Brothers racing exhaust and Pedal Commander. Prior to my custom tune, if you ran the lid with open holes, it would really pop on decel. I plugged the holes until I got the custom map. Those holes really do open up the air intake..

[hypurone]

You only replace the rear sprocket and longer belt...Everything else is the same...Spyder goes into limp mode...I have a new belt and 89 T sprocket in stock HOPING someone get this working...I talked to Steve at Monster and there was some interest a few years ago, but now is dead...If I had the knowlege I THINK its doable since you can get a F3 either way, BUT, NOONE has been able to change their F3 to the 89 T or from the 89 T back to the 79 T set up...I'm sure its all in the programing...

It can be done yes, but you have to change so many components to do it that it makes it a non-starter for most... Last I read, you would have to obtain a new ECM & TCM that are "PAIRED" to each other for the 89T, plus the dash would need to be paired to them and I don't think that can be done, so a NEW DASH is needed, then once that happens I believe the VCM (that does the VSC and something else) needs to be changed to match the new Dash, I am going from memory on this and my discussions with a friend who was trying to get it done so I may have the last part wrong.

Either way it isn't for that faint of heart and trying to find someone adept enough to undertake is daunting! My friend contacted dealers as well and NONE of them would touch it!!

[Peter Aawen]

It can be done yes, but you have to change so many components to do it that it makes it a non-starter for most... Last I read, you would have to obtain a new ECM & TCM that are "PAIRED" to each other for the 89T, plus the dash would need to be paired to them and I don't think that can be done, so a NEW DASH is needed, then once that happens I believe the VCM (that does the VSC and something else) needs to be changed to match the new Dash, I am going from memory on this and my discussions with a friend who was trying to get it done so I may have the last part wrong.

Either way it isn't for that faint of heart and trying to find someone adept enough to undertake is daunting! My friend contacted dealers as well and NONE of them would touch it!!

That's pretty much the same thing I'd heard on this side of the world Nett result, it's basically cheaper & easier just to buy another Spyder with the rear pulley you want!

[BertRemington]

hypurone -- how far did your friend go with parts swap? Did they first try the TCM? Then discover they needed an ECM and try that? And then discover they needed a console and try that? And stopped before trying a VCM?

My parts counter search found the TCM was different between 79T and 89T but the ECM, Console and VCM were the same.

With the exception that was US (North America) only. Australia, Japan and Europe were different (basically 79T only).

Regarding TCM/ECM=>Console pairing, was cross-model pairing blocked by serial numbers or other mechanisms?

Thanks.

[hypurone]

hypurone -- how far did your friend go with parts swap? Did they first try the TCM? Then discover they needed an ECM and try that? And then discover they needed a console and try that? And stopped before trying a VCM?

My parts counter search found the TCM was different between 79T and 89T but the ECM, Console and VCM were the same.

With the exception that was US (North America) only. Australia, Japan and Europe were different (basically 79T only).

Regarding TCM/ECM=>Console pairing, was cross-model pairing blocked by serial numbers or other mechanisms?

Thanks.

It has been quite awhile since he was involved in doing this and honestly, I haven't heard from him since.. It was more of a "like minded" & long distance acquaintance type of thing and his communication just trailed off... I would have to go back and see if I saved his emails about the process... It came down to some type of programming was needed between all the parts and it was unclear as to what exactly it was. And the inability to obtain the info about it was the final nail in the coffin IIRC...

[BertRemington]

hypurone -- I'd appreciate that. I already jumped the gun buying the TCM. If buying the matching ECM would be sufficient I'll do it. But a console and a VCM are a stretch too far.

[Rednaxs60]

Interesting thread. Will be following. Not touching my Spyder, need a ride that I insert key, turn to on, start, put in "D" for ditch and go. I am doing an ECU replacement/upgrade project on my '85 Gold Wing fuel injected model. Using the Speeduino project for the upgrade. Lots of new information and steep learning curve. Not quite as easy/simple as I thought it would be. Have had the new ECU installed and the engine started, but there are so many variables that it takes a bit of time to digest the information and make sure the EFI settings and relationships are correct.

Bert - you mention the VE tables. Was apprised that this is the first table to be adjusted to get a stable idle - have to get the air/fuel mixture correct. Next is a look at the spark (timing) table, the list goes on. Have the OEM fuel injectors out for cleaning, flow and leak testing as well as determine the performance specs for these - always thought an injector was an injector.

Have learned that there is a domino effect when components/parts are changed, and if you do not have the capability to adjust the engine tune for these, the performance of the engine may not be what you expect. Hat off to the aftermarket businesses, lots of settings and such to consider.

Will continue to follow. Learn something new everyday.

Cheers

[BertRemington]

always thought an injector was an injector

Make sure the Speeduino provides a soft landing for the pintles so they don't wear out and lose the calibration you paid for. Take a look at various oscilloscope pictures (current is best) to see what I mean. Although your injector guy probably explained this to you already.

I think a $200 investment in a oscilloscope would be worthwhile for verifying the values Speeduino is measuring. The extra cost is for a current probe. I'm using OWON HDS242 although haven't been successful in getting any of my PC to recognize it. Probably too many specialty USB drivers installed.

PS are you going for a Speed-Density or MAF fuel management design?