Anyone verified Aftermarket Performance Gains?

[xk49]

Has anyone verified(dyno?) what type of HP gains can be made with: Exhaust, intake and tune upgrades? Not looking for manufacturer claims as those are always taken with a grain of salt. I know I'm probably in the minority, but I find there's always a need for more power as long as it can be done safely, to the engine/drivetrain that is.

I'm picking up my f3-S this thursday and it already has a the three aforementioned mods, but would like to know if there's anything left on the table for additional performance.

[BajaRon]

If you do it all, you can get reasonable HP gains. The lions share comes from the tune. You won't get too much from the rest of it.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

.... I don't know how old you are, but back when Carburetors were the norm there were things you could do to add power ..... Today engines are controlled by computers with corresponding electric's ..... they dictate the power you can extract from any given engine ..... Computer management is Mandatory, then anything else can be programed into the computer ..... good luck .... Mike

[BertRemington]

These guys have a wheel dynamometer https://theshopmaine.com/dyno-tuning/

[xk49]

.... I don't know how old you are, but back when Carburetors were the norm there were things you could do to add power ..... Today engines are controlled by computers with corresponding electric's ..... they dictate the power you can extract from any given engine ..... Computer management is Mandatory, then anything else can be programed into the computer ..... good luck .... Mike

I'm pretty familiar with modern performance modifications. I've owned three late model, extremely fast and heavily modified cars. The ECU management can only take advantage for the most part aftermarket modifications. IE. You just can plug in some new map and expect any decent results. I'm pretty decent at sleuth'ing the internet, but for some reason there seems to be a lack of performance junkies when it comes to the Spyder. Other than displacement, a combination of air(turbos, superchargers), fuel(pumps, lines, injectors) and exhaust(headers, highflow cats, larger diameter exhaust) seem to be the big three for big gains at reasonable cost, at least for cars that is. And never any real numbers for people who do do mods to their Spyders other than "Well, it feels faster".

I'm 61yrs old, but I still love the power factor. Not looking to go racing, but almost everything I've owned I've done some type(s) of performance mods based on real numbers. I guess I might just have to wait until more younger people who know more than myself(which won't be hard) to get into the sport and start tinkering.

[BertRemington]

xk49 -- one of the things I was listening for but didn't hear in your posts was instrumentation.

Until you take measurements you are also in "Well, it feels faster" mode.

First step: establish a baseline with the wheel dynamometer.

Second step: buy and read a service manual to understand how the various subsystems work individually and together. For instance, the clutch line pressure is for engagement not release. The HCM has its own oil pump with two pressure circuits. So add an pressure gauge (the transducer is the standard 3-wire 5V 0.5V-4.5V sensor) to understand what the HCM is doing and whether the line pressure needs to be increased. The ignition coils (I thought they were ignitors but a closer looks says otherwise) may benefit from aftermarket amplifiers. The fuel injectors may benefit from a higher line pressure (which of course should be instrumented -- easy to do).

I don't know if you modified your cars from a Summit Racing catalog or not but the Spyder is a small market so you will have to find your own way ahead starting with instrumented measurements.

[mandytuning]

I have been searching for a inground dyno around Florida to test the mods and different tunes to contribute with this community.No luck, found one but dyno owners are not that friendly like when i was in Puerto Rico.

[BertRemington]

mandytuning -- that's unfortunate. On a Royal Enfield forum the tuner was using a wheel dyno for his bike but now that I recall it might have been above ground. I believe the dyno was good for at least 200hp.

WRT instrumentation I'm using this https://www.autosportlabs.com/produc...emetry-system/ for a friend's SCTA roadster. Very convenient and easy to use but kinda $s overkill for the Spyder. I recommend the Arduino Duo although you have to be careful to protect its digital and analog interfaces. There's a hardened version but I can't find the link at the moment. So fewer $s but many more man-hours. I'm retired so have the man-hours. For displays, there's a variety of LCDs and recording gauges and for logs the Arduino has a serial interface to a laptop (I recommend against the SD shield). You might ask your tuner if they have decoded any of the CANBUS messages and if so would be willing to share. Bosch has them locked up as proprietary data but you never know what might have leaked out. I know some of the left-hand messages but that's about it.

The 1330cc Spyder is a nicely designed machine once you accept it was tuned for safety over performance. Performance is there but you're going to have a chase it down. Have fun and keep us informed!

[BertRemington]

Found the Rugged Arduino https://www.rugged-circuits.com/ Apparently I hadn't bookmarked it. Now I have.

I remember going through the purchase process and then stopped short because they didn't accept PayPal or AmazonPay. I'm going to contact them to see if they will accept a bank check if I pay a handling fee.

If you don't use their product then use A-D and D-A convertors between the Spyder and the Arduino. Easier than building your own protective circuits.

BTW wasn't there a smaller front pulley for some of the F3 models?

[BertRemington]

So did a search for dynamometers and bumped into my friend DynoJet. Turns out they have both motorcycle and ATV/UTV dynamometers. And we know the hardcore ATV/UTV guys are into performance so perhaps start your search there.

And yep I found one about 40 minutes away https://mcedyno.com/ The dyno itself is built into a trailer https://mcedyno.com/wp-content/uploa...1147x1536.jpeg

[Mikey]

If you do it all, you can get reasonable HP gains. The lions share comes from the tune. You won't get too much from the rest of it.

But it will sound fast!!!!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'm pretty familiar with modern performance modifications. I've owned three late model, extremely fast and heavily modified cars. The ECU management can only take advantage for the most part aftermarket modifications. IE. You just can plug in some new map and expect any decent results. I'm pretty decent at sleuth'ing the internet, but for some reason there seems to be a lack of performance junkies when it comes to the Spyder. Other than displacement, a combination of air(turbos, superchargers), fuel(pumps, lines, injectors) and exhaust(headers, highflow cats, larger diameter exhaust) seem to be the big three for big gains at reasonable cost, at least for cars that is. And never any real numbers for people who do do mods to their Spyders other than "Well, it feels faster".

I'm 61yrs old, but I still love the power factor. Not looking to go racing, but almost everything I've owned I've done some type(s) of performance mods based on real numbers. I guess I might just have to wait until more younger people who know more than myself(which won't be hard) to get into the sport and start tinkering.

Good for you .... Had I known you were so knowledgeable, I wouldn't have tried to assist ..... I won't EVER do so in the future ..... JMHO ... Mike

[Knizar]

Has anyone verified(dyno?) what type of HP gains can be made with: Exhaust, intake and tune upgrades? Not looking for manufacturer claims as those are always taken with a grain of salt. I know I'm probably in the minority, but I find there's always a need for more power as long as it can be done safely, to the engine/drivetrain that is.

I'm picking up my f3-S this thursday and it already has a the three aforementioned mods, but would like to know if there's anything left on the table for additional performance.

What year F3-S are you are you modifying? New? Have you ridden this motorcycle before you started adding the mods?
Just curious!........Bill

[xk49]

What year F3-S are you are you modifying? New? Have you ridden this motorcycle before you started adding the mods?
Just curious!........Bill

It's a 2021 F3-S. And why would I have to drive it to know how much base HP is there, that's well documented from the factory. I do know that given the weight, nannies and HP of this bike it will be an under performer. Every motorcycle I have ever bought I have replaced exhaust, intake and tune. All I'm asking was if anyone has concrete numbers, that's it. I know what I'm getting into as these bikes are not being marketed as "fast" bikes because of the age demographics, but building a knowledge base never hurts.

[xk49]

Good for you .... Had I known you were so knowledgeable, I wouldn't have tried to assist ..... I won't EVER do so in the future ..... JMHO ... Mike

I was responding to your comment in order to provide you with my scope of knowledge and experience on the subject(as limited as it might be) in hopes that you would have feedback that could address my question. Your comment did absolutely nothing to answer my original question, not that it isn't appreciated, but not to the point.

[larryd]

The way BRP stepped up the performance on some F3 models was to put the 89 tooth rear sprocket on...This really wakes the 1330 up due to the lower gearing change...NO ONE has figured out how to update any RT or F3 from the 79 T rear sprocket to the 89 T set up...Many have tried, but no one succeeded...

I have the stage 2 Monster tune on my 2014 RTS along with the cat eliminator pipe, AND YES IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE...This did not effect my fuel milage...larryd

[Peter Aawen]

I doubt you'll find too many who've been able to run their Spyder on a Dyno, cos up until fairly recently, it wasn't really all that easy for most owners &/or tuners to run a Spyder on a rear wheel dyno due to the way the (proprietary & not shared! ) Nanny settings object to differing wheel speeds front & rear. It's a fairly new thing, and I don't know which BUDS licence level is necessary, but some level of BUDS/BUDS II (possibly MegaTech??) now has access to an option that'll let the operator Enable Roller Bench Mode (the default is 'Disabled' & AFAIK at least the basic dealer licence can't change that! ) and I've been informed by some very reliable sources that that's the way to get around the Nanny & actually run your Spyder on a Dyno...

Haven't tried it myself, but then, I don't really feel the need, cos I've already got intake & exhaust mods with an ECU Upgrade to suit that was done by Jase from Rotax Racing, who's now based here in Oz, and my V-Twin Spyder now gets much more than just 'adequate' power output...

[BertRemington]

Peter -- dang I forgot the Spyder electronics didn't like wheel speed differences. But Monster publishes dynamometer results https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b...a4eae1~mv2.png so there must be some means of obtaining measurements.

larryd -- Monster requires some airbox changes but still retain a comfortable sound level. In your discussions with them did they say anything about more extensive airbox changes that would increase sound level as well as power?

[BertRemington]

larryd -- some questions

The way BRP stepped up the performance on some F3 models was to put the 89 tooth rear sprocket on

What models?

Many have tried, but no one succeeded...

Did they only try modifying their existing rear wheel? Did they try replacing the rear wheel entirely with the 89 tooth version? Or did the VCM detect an out-of-range engine speed vs wheel speed and engage safety mode?

[BertRemington]

xk49 -- as you can see from the Monster chart the engine falls off quite quickly at higher RPM. The BRP chart for the stock engine stops at 7300 RPM. With a DOHC engine I would think there's more upper end power available. When you examine the air intake ducting you will find it's quite intricate. Perhaps removing most (all?) of it leaving just the intake manifold part with the fuel injectors would open things up? Especially with short bell-mouth runners?

I have a manifold with injectors in storage. Let me know if you want pictures. The manifold came with a collection of parts and I have no plans to use it if you're interested.

As you do your research you will keep returning to the BRP parts list. Don't fall into that trap. This is a Rotax engine with Bosch controls. For instance the fuel injectors have a matching Bosch part number so there's a good chance higher flow injectors are available with the same form-fit. Same with ignition coils which seem to be the usual Kettering ignition. Shouldn't be hard to upgrade to a CD ignition.

Be careful with wiring. BRP doesn't seem to use terminators on its CANBUS but the wiring loom is fairly small so probably not required. But you don't want transients to get into the system. Keep your primary circuits separate from the BRP and use the usual suppression techniques (eg twisted pairs, ferrite chokes).

Best wishes. Send pictures.

[BertRemington]

BTW I keep coming back to increasing Volumetric Efficiency. The Rotax is slightly oversquare DOHC so 130% is theoretically possible except you probably don't want to regrind your cams. But you still need to measure VE. While the throttle is ECM-controlled it isn't a mass air flow sensor. And you still need to measure fuel quantity (I assume you're going to add a UEGO to the exhaust). That's a bit tricky because injectors ain't a nice clean square wave. There's probably some circuit out there that returns a duty cycle as a voltage you can translate into fuel flow. Everything else (eg air temperature, RPM) is easy to obtain. An Arduino Duo might not be able to keep up -- you might need to step up to a more powerful version.

[2dogs]

I have the stage 2 Monster tune on my 2014 RTS along with the cat eliminator pipe, AND YES IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE...This did not effect my fuel milage...larryd

Same for me and I have the exact results as you. I like performance however when I'm 2/3 gas tanks from home I prefer reliability over performance.

[larryd]

larryd -- some questions

What models?

Did they only try modifying their existing rear wheel? Did they try replacing the rear wheel entirely with the 89 tooth version? Or did the VCM detect an out-of-range engine speed vs wheel speed and engage safety mode?

You only replace the rear sprocket and longer belt...Everything else is the same...Spyder goes into limp mode...I have a new belt and 89 T sprocket in stock HOPING someone get this working...I talked to Steve at Monster and there was some interest a few years ago, but now is dead...If I had the knowlege I THINK its doable since you can get a F3 either way, BUT, NOONE has been able to change their F3 to the 89 T or from the 89 T back to the 79 T set up...I'm sure its all in the programing...

[BertRemington]

Yep from your description the VCM or ECM is detecting an out-of-range engine vs wheel speed.

After reading the service manual several times, I think the detection is in the ECM. The VCM receives throttle opening but doesn't appear to receive engine speed while the ECM receives wheel speed (as converted to road speed by the VCM).

There are two (in my service manual) procedures for programming an ECM: copying firmware from an existing ECM to a new ECM; and getting factory firmware according to VIN, model#, etc. Perhaps the first method would work to copy 89T firmware to a 79T ECM. The second method wouldn't work due to VIN, model #, etc mismatch.

Just some thoughts. A BUDS expert is needed.

[Peter Aawen]

Peter -- dang I forgot the Spyder electronics didn't like wheel speed differences. But Monster publishes dynamometer results https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b...a4eae1~mv2.png so there must be some means of obtaining measurements.
.....

That's true, there's always been a way to do this, it's just never been easy or a justifiable expense for most... All they had to do was remove the front wheel speed sensors from their default positions and extend them back to connect them both to the rear wheel speed sensor - but that's not anywhere as easy to do as it is to type it &/or think about! But NOW, there's the option to enable that Roller Bench Mode, IF you've got the necessary BUDS Licence/version.

Ps: The difficulties with swapping the rear pulleys on Spyders wasn't just the ECM & engine/wheel speed sensing thing; if it was, it would've been a relatively easy fix for someone like Jase at Rotax Racing. But apparently, there's a number of 'other' places in the system that are also involved, (possibly coding hanging off the Country Code?? ) and despite some concerted efforts at tracking all the necessary changes down & updating them to suit the different rear pulley size too, every attempt & multiple changes still ended up in limp mode!!