Downshifting vs Braking

[ff73148]

I'm a newer owner of a 2022 RT Limited. Coming from two wheels I've always been a fan of downshifting and using engine braking to slow down. I've been doing this with my Spyder rather than letting the bike downshift on it's own. Any issues with what I'm doing?

[PaladinLV]

Absolutely NONE!
I manually down shift 85% of the time.

[Little Blue]

Well, whatever you want to do. The Spyder will only do what it is program to do by the computer. Unless you have changed your computer 'black box'.

So if you don't want to downshift use the brake.
I generally use the engine to aid in my slowing down my Spyder. Just what I have been doing riding my bikes over the years.

What is best I will let you decide. I am sure others will have their own thoughts on this.

Stay Healthy. ....

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'm a newer owner of a 2022 RT Limited. Coming from two wheels I've always been a fan of downshifting and using engine braking to slow down. I've been doing this with my Spyder rather than letting the bike downshift on it's own. Any issues with what I'm doing?

My answer is going start a .... WAR .... I use my brakes 95% of the time (I have an SE trans w 1330 engine) I let the computer do the Downshifting ...... the other 5 % I downshift manually to stay in the power band in the Twisty's. .... Lots of folks will say the trans. is made to withstand the abuse created by "engine braking" .... IMHO (and many others) every time you subject metal to metal contact, this creates WEAR - period (this applies to the clutch also). I would rather buy brake pads then engine/ trans. parts..... let the fighting begin ... ..... Mike

[Pirate]

My answer is going start a .... WAR .... I use my brakes 95% of the time (I have an SE trans w 1330 engine) I let the computer do the Downshifting ...... the other 5 % I downshift manually to stay in the power band in the Twisty's. .... Lots of folks will say the trans. is made to withstand the abuse created by "engine braking" .... IMHO (and many others) every time you subject metal to metal contact, this creates WEAR - period (this applies to the clutch also). I would rather buy brake pads then engine/ trans. parts..... let the fighting begin ... ..... Mike

I do the same and most of my riding is in the canyons.

[Peacekeeper6]

My answer is going start a .... WAR .... I use my brakes 95% of the time (I have an SE trans w 1330 engine) I let the computer do the Downshifting ...... the other 5 % I downshift manually to stay in the power band in the Twisty's. .... Lots of folks will say the trans. is made to withstand the abuse created by "engine braking" .... IMHO (and many others) every time you subject metal to metal contact, this creates WEAR - period (this applies to the clutch also). I would rather buy brake pads then engine/ trans. parts..... let the fighting begin ... ..... Mike

You're not going to start a war with me because I basically feel the same way and do the same thing.

[bikerbillone]

Yo Mike, no war here, light on/off foot brake is my method of choice, unless of course conditions dictates differently. Nanny pretty much figures it all out for me and makes riding a real joy.

[Bangorbob]

Why would you start a war for doing what you want? At least we have choices. I do both depending on how I feel.

[Peter Aawen]

You can choose to use your brakes alone as you slow; or you can choose to shift down & engine brake if that's what you prefer; none of my business or anyone else's but yours - but it might pay you to keep in mind that these SE transmissions our Spyders run are, for all intents and purposes, still just MANUAL gearboxes, albeit with centrifugal clutches (SE5's) or oil pressure/hydraulic clutches(SE6's) and some pretty sexy electro/solenoid computer enacted flappy-paddle (thumb & fore-finger) initiated 'quick-shift' gear selection capabilities; and as such they have a FAIL-SAFE downshift feature built into the Transmission Control Module (TCM computer) that's designed and intended to make the down-shift for you if you ever happen to forget or if you apply too much throttle for the gear/road speed & so risk putting too much torque thru that (higher) gear &/or the clutch.

So while the computer TCM has your back and won't let you do anything that'll likely cause damage, if you REALLY want to do what's best for you & the bike/its transmission & clutch, you'll ride & change gears exactly the same way you would for any other bike with a MANUAL gearbox.... and if that involves you choosing to coast &/or brake to slow down without personally initiating any changing down to match your revs/road speed & instead leaving all that to the Fail-Safe software programmed into the computer, that's OK - but so is initiating the gearchanges to match your slowing revs/road speed yourself; or even selecting the lower gears a bit early to help slow you down &/or stay in the power band/right rev range for that gear/road speed if you wish! Mind you, it might be a bit more important to practice either of those last two mentioned for riders of SE5 bikes, cos you can get a 'false neutral' when the centrifugal clutch starts to disengage if your revs drop low enough.... once your engine revs drop anything much below 3500 rpm the clutch will start to disengage and in some circumstances, that can see you free-wheeling... possibly at an ever-increasing speed if there's enough down-hill slope involved!!

Still, the gearbox is made to handle either coasting to a stop &/or engine braking (or any other way besides ); if it wasn't, the gear teeth in the trans wouldn't have or need a bearing/contact face on each side of every tooth, but I reckon those're there for a pretty good reason; and besides, the computer won't let you do anything truly harmful to the clutch/trans/engine when changing gears anyway! Me, I personally ride/drive my Spyder as I would any other manually gearboxed bike/vehicle, and I generally initiate any necessary gearchange down-shifts myself, but not always - sometimes that might entail a bit of engine braking (ex-crashbox heavy vehicle driver here ) and sometimes it's just me matching revs & road speed to the gear selection seamlessly as I gently slow ( ); but I know that whatever way, the computer's got my back if I get it wrong occasionally, AND even if I completely forget to change down at all, or if I suddenly wrench the throttle wide open again in too high a gear for the given road speed!

Just Sayin'

[DaniBoy]

You can choose to use your brakes alone as you slow; or you can choose to shift down & engine brake if that's what you prefer; none of my business or anyone else's but yours - but it might pay you to keep in mind that these SE transmissions our Spyders run are, for all intents and purposes, still just MANUAL gearboxes, albeit with centrifugal clutches (SE5's) or oil pressure/hydraulic clutches(SE6's) and some pretty sexy electro/solenoid computer enacted flappy-paddle (thumb & fore-finger) initiated 'quick-shift' gear selection capabilities; and as such they have a FAIL-SAFE downshift feature built into the Transmission Control Module (TCM computer) that's designed and intended to make the down-shift for you if you ever happen to forget or if you apply too much throttle for the gear/road speed & so risk putting too much torque thru that (higher) gear &/or the clutch.

So while the computer TCM has your back and won't let you do anything that'll likely cause damage, if you REALLY want to do what's best for you & the bike/its transmission & clutch, you'll ride & change gears exactly the same way you would for any other bike with a MANUAL gearbox.... and if that involves you choosing to coast &/or brake to slow down without personally initiating any changing down to match your revs/road speed & instead leaving all that to the Fail-Safe software programmed into the computer, that's OK - but so is initiating the gearchanges to match your slowing revs/road speed yourself; or even selecting the lower gears a bit early to help slow you down &/or stay in the power band/right rev range for that gear/road speed if you wish! Mind you, it might be a bit more important to practice either of those last two mentioned for riders of SE5 bikes, cos you can get a 'false neutral' when the centrifugal clutch starts to disengage if your revs drop low enough.... once your engine revs drop anything much below 3500 rpm the clutch will start to disengage and in some circumstances, that can see you free-wheeling... possibly at an ever-increasing speed if there's enough down-hill slope involved!!

Still, the gearbox is made to handle either coasting to a stop &/or engine braking (or any other way besides ); if it wasn't, the gear teeth in the trans wouldn't have or need a bearing/contact face on each side of every tooth, but I reckon those're there for a pretty good reason; and besides, the computer won't let you do anything truly harmful to the clutch/trans/engine when changing gears anyway! Me, I personally ride/drive my Spyder as I would any other manually gearboxed bike/vehicle, and I generally initiate any necessary gearchange down-shifts myself, but not always - sometimes that might entail a bit of engine braking (ex-crashbox heavy vehicle driver here ) and sometimes it's just me matching revs & road speed to the gear selection seamlessly as I gently slow ( ); but I know that whatever way, the computer's got my back if I get it wrong occasionally, AND even if I completely forget to change down at all, or if I suddenly wrench the throttle wide open again in too high a gear for the given road speed!

Just Sayin'

So Peter, you’re saying that the clutch starts to disengage on the SE below 3500? Does that mean that in slow moving traffic, like city, construction, etc that just creeping along is bad for it?

[Peter Aawen]

So Peter, you’re saying that the clutch starts to disengage on the SE below 3500? Does that mean that in slow moving traffic, like city, construction, etc that just creeping along is bad for it?

Yep, the clutch on the SE5's won't FULLY engage until the revs get up over about 3200-3400, there's a little variation in there; and on decel they'll start to disengage as your revs drop thru about 3500 (different on the SE6's tho - they just need engine running oil pressure! ) It's not really a biggie if you're just creeping along, low speed, low gear, low revs type for a little bit, cos it'll manage that OK to some degree due to the low torque involved; but you really don't want to do it all the time, for a long time, or try to change up too soon - wait until you can reach & hold revs above 4000+ or so for a while in order to make sure the revs won't immediately drop as you slow again & so push too much torque thru the clutch now that you're in a higher gear!!! Most of your 'around town' riding anything slower than about 35mph should probably be in First &/or Second gear, and you should only go to Third ONLY IF you think you'll be able to hold revs over 4000 or so for a bit of a while... but if it's slow &/or stop/start traffic, try to let the vehicle in front pull away a bit & get more space between you'n it so that you can actually rev more & ride a bit then stop or coast with no throttle, moving in fits & spurts rather than trying to continually just creep along barely moving as the engine ticks over juuust above idle. Your SE5 clutch will much prefer it if you open the throttle a bit more to move forward then consciously/actively shut it off to coast & stop for a bit rather than trying to continually creep along....

At some point around, I think it was around mid 2013, BRP introduced thicker/stronger clutch plates to improve these centrifugal clutch's ability to withstand this sort of thing juust a little, cos too many people had been tooling around in higher gears at too low revs, & as a result they were cooking their centrifugal clutches; but this upgrade didn't stop it happening if you treated it wrong, it just improved things a little - funnily enough, this happened more often in North America where many people were more used to big twin cylinder high torque/low revving engines that only fired at every telegraph pole when doing 35 mph or less, & not so much in other parts of the world where higher revving motors were more common. IIRC, there's quite a bit of discussion on this clutch thing in some threads back around 2010 ish, certainly before about 2015 or so, if you want to search & do some reading; but if you still have questions, you probably won't get too many posters from those early threads responding now.

Make sense??

[BajaRon]

So Peter, you’re saying that the clutch starts to disengage on the SE below 3500? Does that mean that in slow moving traffic, like city, construction, etc that just creeping along is bad for it?

It's not quite that simple. The clutch does not necessarily start disengaging at 3,500 RPM. Actually, I think the official number is 3,200 RPM. But regardless. What it means is that maximum clutch plate pressure is not reached until this magic number (whatever it is). Under slight or even moderate loading, a less than maximum plate pressure is enough to keep the assembly completely engaged (no slippage). As engine load increases and clutch plate pressure decreases, clutch slippage is more likely.

There is nothing wrong with appropriate clutch slippage. Clutches MUST slip, and all do. It is excessive slippage that will begin to destroy the clutch and should be avoided. So, creeping along in slow traffic is not going to be a problem.

[DaniBoy]

Mine is an SE5, and I’ve noticed that manually downshifting via the blipper is much smoother than just braking and letting the TCM do it. Letting the bike downshift by itself seems to be a louder, harsher “clunk”, I suppose because the RPM’s are lower than they would be if I manually downshift. Does that make sense? In my mind, the prominent “Can-Am Clunk”, (especially noticeable when shifting into reverse) just sounds like extreme wear on the gears and such. Shifting into 1st after reversing is smooth and almost silent, as is up shifting once I’m on the road. Is that normal? Are automatic downshifts clunkier than manual ones?

[CAV06]

Bought my first Spyder Nov 23 (23 RTL) after 50 years riding two wheelers. The weather is finally cooperating and I have started doing some serious riding. I'm loving the RTL. I have managed to stop grabbing for the clutch and hand brake and I'm getting comfortable shifting with the paddles. I'm fine downshifting for a stop, but when I let the bike downshift it often bucks and lurches when it shifts into 1st. I'm pretty sure this isn't normal. Is it something I'm doing? not doing?

[Mikey]

Bought my first Spyder Nov 23 (23 RTL) after 50 years riding two wheelers. The weather is finally cooperating and I have started doing some serious riding. I'm loving the RTL. I have managed to stop grabbing for the clutch and hand brake and I'm getting comfortable shifting with the paddles. I'm fine downshifting for a stop, but when I let the bike downshift it often bucks and lurches when it shifts into 1st. I'm pretty sure this isn't normal. Is it something I'm doing? not doing?

You say it's lurches when it downshifts on its own, I would have to say that's not normal, and if it was me maybe I would take it to the shop and have it checked out, or find a friend that has a Spyder and let them try it and see what they think, and maybe you could try there's to ease your mind one way or another! Good luck

[pauly1]

I use the paddle shift on a 1330/SE6 F3 almost exclusively vs letting the TCM do it for me. The computer does the minimum to keep the clutch engaged so you don't go into free wheeling/coasting mode; it doesn't look at engine performance, grade of the road, etc. The engine provides dynamic braking, especially useful when descending grades. Choose to use your brakes exclusively and let the TCM do it's minimal downshifting runs the risk of overheating the brakes and/or losing control of the machine. I ran big V-twins for 15 years/170K miles and never lost a clutch or transmission, relying on the additional engine braking. That includes riding 2-up, and/or pulling a trailer. Take any riding course and they will recommend use of the engine for additional brake and vehicle control.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I use the paddle shift on a 1330/SE6 F3 almost exclusively vs letting the TCM do it for me. The computer does the minimum to keep the clutch engaged so you don't go into free wheeling/coasting mode; it doesn't look at engine performance, grade of the road, etc. The engine provides dynamic braking, especially useful when descending grades. Choose to use your brakes exclusively and let the TCM do it's minimal downshifting runs the risk of overheating the brakes and/or losing control of the machine. I ran big V-twins for 15 years/170K miles and never lost a clutch or transmission, relying on the additional engine braking. That includes riding 2-up, and/or pulling a trailer. Take any riding course and they will recommend use of the engine for additional brake and vehicle control.

....My comments were directed at those folks who prefer to use the Engine as their Main braking device...... When I came down off the top of Mt Washington in NH ( 6000 + ft ), I also used to the transmission to control my speed - as opposed to using them as a Stopping device..... there is a difference .....Mike

[Mikey]

....My comments were directed at those folks who prefer to use the Engine as their Main braking device...... When I came down off the top of Mt Washington in NH ( 6000 + ft ), I also used to the transmission to control my speed - as opposed to using them as a Stopping device..... there is a difference .....Mike

When I came down that mountain, I wish I could have gone around the people that were in front of me, I needed another gear lower, had to stop halfway down to cool my brakes. The boss behind me would have beat me on the back if I had passed the car!!!

[pauly1]

....My comments were directed at those folks who prefer to use the Engine as their Main braking device...... When I came down off the top of Mt Washington in NH ( 6000 + ft ), I also used to the transmission to control my speed - as opposed to using them as a Stopping device..... there is a difference .....Mike

In other words, Mike, directed at me and my ilk. Controlling speed or braking: no difference. If one doesn't use the engine, then one uses the brakes. You ride your way and I'll ride my way.

[Latrappe]

I think it depends on the situation if you just use brakes only or gears or a combination of the two, as you all know Spyders stop a lot quicker than Two Wheelers or Cars, so it is not only the stopping it is what is creeping up behind you and are they going to stop, especially in an emergency stop and that is making sure you in the right gear to go

My 2 Cents worth

[pegasus1300]

I'm a newer owner of a 2022 RT Limited. Coming from two wheels I've always been a fan of downshifting and using engine braking to slow down. I've been doing this with my Spyder rather than letting the bike downshift on it's own. Any issues with what I'm doing?

None at all, I have been riding my 2012 Spyder that way since I got it in 2015. Ride on and enjoy

[SLICE]

I ride like a Ken Block wanna be, that being said I find to many ''safety features'' on these machines.

It will not let you downshift if you are going too fast for the next lower gear (ie. 4 to 3 if you are moving at 50-60 MPH.)

I like to keep bikes up high in the power band, not this one, just another disappointing feature that a small percentage of us don't want or need.


Flame On

[Mikey]

I ride like a Ken Block wanna be, that being said I find to many ''safety features'' on these machines.

It will not let you downshift if you are going too fast for the next lower gear (ie. 4 to 3 if you are moving at 50-60 MPH.)

I like to keep bikes up high in the power band, not this one, just another disappointing feature that a small percentage of us don't want or need.


Flame On

You should have got a 998 if you like to rev it up!!

[SLICE]

You should have got a 998 if you like to rev it up!!

i want to ride the new supercharged kawasaki. 200+ MPH

[Bartender]

My attention was drawn to this thread because of recent discussions with my two wheeled riding friends. Until two years ago, I had ridden two wheels for 50+ years and had developed a habit of controlling speed with the use of the transmission so I continued that practice when I moved to a Spyder after spending quality time in the hospital recovering from the effects of Covid. Anyway, several of my two wheeled riding buddies started commenting about how quickly I was scrubbing speed at corners or any other reason to slow and reminded me that when downshifting to slow my brake lights were not being activated and they didn't have adequate warning of a change of speed. I was tempted to remind them that they are responsible for being aware of the vehicles in front of them but then realized that they had a legitimate complaint and vehicles had stop lights for a reason, so, I started tapping my brakes even when downshifting just to give those behind me a warning I was changing speed. I haven't quit downshifting or decreased the amount of engine control I am using to control speed, just added some brake use to flash the brake lights. So this comment just to remind all of us that there may be more to this discussion than just the merits of wear on brake pads, engines and transmissions.