Raising body height via Tyres?

[Peteoz]

So……a question for the tyre knowledgeable out there.

I am scraping the bottom of my RT on our pitiful road repairs out here in Oz. I am in discussions with Ikon re the 10mm longer shock they sell, but as the front shock is at 45degrees, this may only give me a few mm. Since every mm counts (I am only just scraping, and only very occasionally), would aftermarket tyres (I am currently running Kanines - 165/55) with a slightly higher aspect provide me with a few mm more body lift? 165/55 to 165/60 would give me around 8mm extra in aspect height (if I have done my % sums correctly).

The Kanine is running at 18psi, and I have run previous aftermarkets on my ‘16 F3-L at 18psi so the pressure would be similar.

So, am I deluding myself, or is the larger aspect a possibility to achieve my goal?

Pete

[spyderdave]

I think your results will be limited by the lack of room under the fender, it's a tight fit. I wanted to do the same, but wound up replacing my shocks to get the ground clearance I wanted.

[canamjhb]

I ran Federal Formoza 175/55R15s on the front of my 2014 RTL with no fitment issues. Besides raising the bike a little, I thought the bigger tires looked awesome. Good luck..... Jim

[Peteoz]

I think your results will be limited by the lack of room under the fender, it's a tight fit. I wanted to do the same, but wound up replacing my shocks to get the ground clearance I wanted.

Thanks Dave…..I ran 165/60 under my F3 fenders with no issues, so I’ll double check clearance on the RT. Which shocks did you end up getting to assist with height? I have the stock aftermarket Ikons which are the same length as the stock BRP shocks.

Pete

[Peteoz]

I ran Federal Formoza 175/55R15s on the front of my 2014 RTL with no fitment issues. Besides raising the bike a little, I thought the bigger tires looked awesome. Good luck..... Jim

That’s interesting, CanAm……thanks.
55% of 175 is 96,
60% of 165 is 99,
55% of 165 is 90(stock)

So a 165/60 gives the most additional height over stock. (albeit minimal, but every mm helps.)

Pete

[Peter Aawen]

That’s interesting, CanAm……thanks.
55% of 175 is 96,
60% of 165 is 99,
55% of 165 is 90(stock)

So a 165/60 gives the most additional height over stock. (albeit minimal, bet every mm helps.)

Pete

That lot ^^ might be true IF those tire sizes reflected the ACTUAL sizes of the tires you're planning on putting on, but they rarely do!!

Some tire manufacturers use the tire carcass sans tread layers (usually about 6-8mm x 2 thicknesses of rubber! ) size as their basis for the NOMINAL tire size they'll put on the sidewall of the tires they make/sell; others use the completely manufactured & ready to sell/fit to your vehicle tire (ie. with the tread layers already installed) size as their basis for the sidewall label; while some seem to use whatever number happens to come to mind when they're tossing around the idea of making a new tire?!?

The sad reality is that while those sizes printed on the sidewall of tires can be handy indicators & an aid for choosing/comparing tires before you buy a new set, they are simply NOMINAL sizes that if you're lucky might bear some vague resemblance to the tire's actual size... but you really need to look at the physical dimensions of the tire you are planning on fitting to be sure!! I've test fitted a tire labelled 185/65R15 on the front of my 2013 RT Spyder, a tire that was visually only just a touch larger in size to the OE Spec Kendas, and it fitted easily within the fender & didn't touch/scrape anywhere. However, that was only it's NOMINAL size, and in reality that (cheap, generic brand) tire was very similar in size to the 165/55 Stock Kenda and despite the somewhat larger NOMINAL size shown on the sidewall it was physically smaller in both tread width and rolling diameter than the 175/60R15 Khumo's that have been my 'daily running' tires for a fair while now! And just be warned, I've seen worse size disparities than that, even in tire's that should (going by their Nominal sidewall size) fit our Spyders!

Just as a quick aside, and not specifically applicable to our Spyders, but the largest difference between Sidewall size and the Actual size I've come across so far was that of a 4WD tire - it was a tad over 50mm larger in rolling diameter than the size printed on its sidewall suggested it should've been!! Yup, that was FIFTY mm's, not just five mms, but actually FIVE ZERO mms taller than the Nominal size on the sidewall suggested it should be!! So yeah, you might use those generic size comparison sites/charts to compare Sidewall sizes in order to help you decide what tires to look at; but Please, before you fork out your hard earned $$, just look for and do a quick comparison using the tire manufacturers published physical dimensions/specs for that tire & DO NOT just rely on the Nominal Sidewall size or solely on any comparison done using those ready-reckoners or generic tire size comparison sites!!

Now, all that said, the 175/60's I'm running HAVE increased the Spyder's Static Ride Height by about 10mm - a difference which may not be very much, but it comes in very handy by reducing the number of times the Spyder's undercarriage actually touches the road surface while I ride, and I've done a few 'back to back' comparisons on that too - same load, same rider, same road/track, same path on the road, same speed, same bumps - the only difference being the slightly larger/taller tires (btw, run at a 'more appropriate for the load' slightly lower pressure too! ) and the taller tire doesn't touch in places the previous tire did... so even just a few mms helps!

But going back to fitting larger tires into the wheel well & under the fenders, you might find you need to ease the new tire in & under the fender by lifting the fender a little, but the fender's flexible enough to allow that; then once in, just make sure that the placcy inner fender skirts, any wiring hidden under the fender, and the screws holding the fender onto the spindle don't touch the tire on rotation. I found I had to make sure the wires were all pushed to the outside of the fender supports, and that the screws holding the fender skirts to the supports are now all low-rise pan head screws & no longer the OEM high-rise hex head screws that stick out 10 mm into the wheel well the very top of those high-rise hex heads touched the tire sidewall when cornering hard! Some have found the inner fender skirts, the black placcy bits, touch on hard cornering too, but that is usually a sign that their tire pressure is still too high and the flex of the tire carcass due to the tread slip angle is being carried too far up the tire as the tire rotates and the tread lifts off the contact patch - dropping the tire pressure 1-2 psi usually resolves that & improves traction/handling/cornering too, even if it means there's not quite as direct a steering 'feel' as many have become used to thru running over-inflated tires; OR, if you aren't comfortable with dropping your tire pressures any more, then you can always simply remove those placcy skirts, they're really just trim pieces...

Sorry this reply turned into such a saga, but you did ask.... and it's not a subject that a simple yes/no answer would work for!

Over to you!

Ps: I don't believe the front fenders on any Spyders have changed significantly since they introduced the new 15" tires on the 2013 models - there's only a few OEM options and they'll all fit the same sized (larger) a/mkt tires equally as well as each other - barring any minor production variations in how the assembly worker at the factory wrapped the wires around the fender supports when they fitted them, or how tight they ran in the hex head screws holding the fender to the supports - and those are all little things that you can fiddle with & resolve yourself, if you can get the bike up high enough or you can get down low enough to work on them! And if you can't do those things yourself, any good tire fitter should be able to help, especially if there's a 6-pack of stubbies or long necks involved!

[spyderdave]

I spent the money on M2's; I was able to gain about 10mm (in height) at the top of the shock and the rest by adjusting the spring preload.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

So……a question for the tyre knowledgeable out there.

I am scraping the bottom of my RT on our pitiful road repairs out here in Oz. I am in discussions with Ikon re the 10mm longer shock they sell, but as the front shock is at 45degrees, this may only give me a few mm. Since every mm counts (I am only just scraping, and only very occasionally), would aftermarket tyres (I am currently running Kanines - 165/55) with a slightly higher aspect provide me with a few mm more body lift? 165/55 to 165/60 would give me around 8mm extra in aspect height (if I have done my % sums correctly).

The Kanine is running at 18psi, and I have run previous aftermarkets on my ‘16 F3-L at 18psi so the pressure would be similar.

So, am I deluding myself, or is the larger aspect a possibility to achieve my goal?

Pete

10 mm is less than 1/2 inch. and I agree at a 45 * angle it's closer to 6 mm. .... When I designed my shock angle adjusters ( see pics in my albums ) I could easily either raise or lower the front end by where I located the Top of the shock ( I left same as OEM ..... The adjusters were designed for the 1330 frame, which I don't think has actually changed. A tire with a higher " aspect ratio " would gain some ground clearance but IMHO not enough to matter. ..... good luck .... Mike PS I gave this some thought, ... a slight re-design could give you both an OEM height and a higher ground clearance height. If you sold the Spyder the new owner could decide which height they preferred. ....

[Peteoz]

Thanks for taking the time to post that, Peter….my figures were only to show differences between 165 and 175 as I know about real vs posted measurements from your previous posts.

Since I like the Kuhmos (they work very well out here in Oz) and have used that 175/60 size on my F3 with no issues, that is probably the way I will go to get an extra 10mm, which will indeed make a difference. I can then look at both adding the longer Ikons and preload.

Just to confirm……did you fit the 175/60 under your fenders with no mods? I cannot remember having to make mods when I fitted the 175 to my F3 (but I can remember if they were 175/60 or 175/55

Thanks again,
Pete

[Peter Aawen]

.....
Just to confirm……did you fit the 175/60 under your fenders with no mods? I cannot remember having to make mods when I fitted the 175 to my F3 (but I can remember if they were 175/60 or 175/55

......

The only 'mods' I made were to make sure the wiring was out of the way (it was! ) and I'd already swapped out the hex head screws for those lo-rise pan head screws earlier...

I'd done that screw swap only cos the hex heads stuck out into the wheel well so much (about 10mm! ) that they juuust touched the wider tire's sidewalls on the odd occasion during rotation... in fact, it was so much 'only juuust touching' that they were probably really only touching the raised lettering on the sidewalls, and I doubt that such a light touch would've ever been a problem, but I am a bit of a stickler when it comes to tires, and a touch is a touch is a touch! Besides, it was easy enough to do & it removed any likelihood if it ever being an issue, even if I fitted a tire that was wider again; or needed to run higher inflation pressures at some stage down track.

Just on fitting those longer Ikons with more pre-load, do be aware that if you do go that way, then by increasing both the shock length and the pre-load, you will almost certainly be increasing the camber angle a tad, and while it's unlikely to be all that much of a great deal once you've climbed aboard, any increase towards a positive camber angle may well make the steering a little more 'flighty' - so if you do that, then I'd suggest that it's probably a good idea to check & monitor any resulting camber angle change if you can (just to be sure it's not too much! ) and if you do notice that it ends up positive &/or your steering gets a bit flighty, especially on the 'return to centre', then maybe add a touch more toe-in to counter that, saaay +1mm more in total toe?! I know that's not an ideal solution, and it might mean you lose maybe a thousand kms off the potential life of your tires, but it should bring your steering back towards being as good as that you've become used to, instead of being something more akin to the earlier models 'factory installed vague'....

[Peteoz]

Thanks Peter…..if I can get a few mm from tyres and a few mm from longer shocks, I’ll leave it at that.

……and I just remembered that I DID perform the screw swap on the F3 prior to install, just for safety.

Pete

[BertRemington]

Pete -- when I measured my Ikons https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...=1#post1610861 the fronts had about a inch more travel than BRPs so wouldn't raising the spring help your height problem?

[Peteoz]

Pete -- when I measured my Ikons https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...=1#post1610861 the fronts had about a inch more travel than BRPs so wouldn't raising the spring help your height problem?

Thanks Bert…..I don’t remember seeing much difference between stock and Ikon front shocks on my ‘21. (Doesn’t mean it wasn’t there, just that I may not have been paying attention). I’ll ask Ikon about pre load when I speak to them re the longer shocks

Pete.

[BajaRon]

You should be able to get all the lift needed with shock spring preload. What you want to do is regain original ride height. With proper shock preload, you won't dip as much when you do hit anomalies in the road which effectively gives you additional ride height. Unless you're going off road gully hopping. This should be enough.

[Peteoz]

You should be able to get all the lift needed with shock spring preload. What you want to do is regain original ride height. With proper shock preload, you won't dip as much when you do hit anomalies in the road which effectively gives you additional ride height. Unless you're going off road gully hopping. This should be enough.

Thanks Ron. Ikon are back from summer holidays today. I’ll be discussing the preload and 10mm longer shock issue with them asap. Unfortunately, I can’t adjust the preload with current Ikon shocks in situ, as the adjustment is right where the shock goes through the a-arm. So it might be worthwhile doing the full replacement to the longer shock at the same time.

Pete

[BajaRon]

Thanks Ron. Ikon are back from summer holidays today. I’ll be discussing the preload and 10mm longer shock issue with them asap. Unfortunately, I can’t adjust the preload with current Ikon shocks in situ, as the adjustment is right where the shock goes through the a-arm. So it might be worthwhile doing the full replacement to the longer shock at the same time.

Pete

It is a shame that you have to dismount the shocks to make adjustment. But still less expensive than a new set of shocks. You can easily get that 10mm, and more, with pre-load adjustment. Measure from the nose of your Spyder to the ground. Then increase preload by 2-3 turns on each shock. Put everything back together and ride a bit or bounce the Spyder up and down a few times to be sure it has settled correctly and measure again. Once you get it where you want it. You may not need to make further adjustments. A 10mm longer shock isn't going to do very much for you. You will still need to adjust pre-load, most likely.

[Peteoz]

A 10mm longer shock isn't going to do very much for you. You will still need to adjust pre-load, most likely.

Yes, that’s the bit I don’t understand, Ron. Unless Ikon set the preload to the max recommended at the factory for heavy riders and the longer shocks are the only way to get any extra height? I won’t know until I speak to them…..hopefully today. I’ll post the discussion results. Thanks again.

Pete

[Peteoz]

It is a shame that you have to dismount the shocks to make adjustment. But still less expensive than a new set of shocks. You can easily get that 10mm, and more, with pre-load adjustment.

Just an update, Ron……..I was able to rotate the preload collar using a plastic bar and hammer……only one notch at a time, but I tightened it one and a half turns. Raised the front about 5mm. Even that is an improvement after riding over some known trouble spots with no issues yesterday. I’ll leave it at that for a while to see how it goes.

Just another bit of feedback…..I spoke to the Ikon owners wife yesterday, who told me that adjusting preload would not raise the undercarriage of the Spyder. I heard the owner yelling in the background (he was heading out to a meeting), that that was not correct as when I loaded the Spyder it would sit higher due to the new preload, and he would talk to me today. I’ll ask him about the purpose of the 10mm longer shock at that time.

She was correct of course, in that adjusting preload would not raise the body of the Spyder per se, but didn’t think it through. Fortunately, she doesn’t normally answer the phone, but they have recently lost their long term phone support person to retirement. How simple it is to pick up incorrect advice……

Thanks for the tip.

Pete

[BajaRon]

Just an update, Ron……..I was able to rotate the preload collar using a plastic bar and hammer……only one notch at a time, but I tightened it one and a half turns. Raised the front about 5mm. Even that is an improvement after riding over some known trouble spots with no issues yesterday. I’ll leave it at that for a while to see how it goes.

Just another bit of feedback…..I spoke to the Ikon owners wife yesterday, who told me that adjusting preload would not raise the undercarriage of the Spyder. I heard the owner yelling in the background (he was heading out to a meeting), that that was not correct as when I loaded the Spyder it would sit higher due to the new preload, and he would talk to me today. I’ll ask him about the purpose of the 10mm longer shock at that time.

She was correct of course, in that adjusting preload would not raise the body of the Spyder per se, but didn’t think it through. Fortunately, she doesn’t normally answer the phone, but they have recently lost their long term phone support person to retirement. How simple it is to pick up incorrect advice……

Thanks for the tip.

Pete

Increasing preload will raise everything but the tires and the initial point of contact between the suspension and the wheel assembly. This includes the body and chassis. Not sure where that phone conversation was going. But these are the facts. What an additional 10mm will do for you depends on where they come by the extended length. But regardless. I don't think it is going to give you any meaningful function that you don't already have unless you intend to go to the extreme limits of adjustability. Something I would not recommend as it will drastically increase harshness of ride and suspension geometry. I doubt this is your desired end result.

[Peteoz]

Sooooooo. Update after discussions with the Ikon owner, Ron ……

The idea of the extra 10mm on the “special” Ikon shock is to give you a 4 mm vertical head start on raising the Spyder body, thus limiting big preload increases, which Ikon are always concerned about on the Spyder due to its touchy front end geometry. The extra 4mm of vertical height from the “special” shock is primarily for those who want to gain an overall 10-15 mm of height from stock, but a wheel alignment would then have to be performed if they went that high.

Geoff (Ikon owner) was quite happy with my 1.5 preload turns on the stock Ikon giving me an extra 5mm, but said he wouldn’t take it much more than that due to potential harshness of ride, even with my 300+lbs. So since my 5mm of gained vertical height on the stock Ikon shock is pretty close to achieving my clearance goal, I am going to leave it at that, and put on a couple of 165/60 Goodyear Duragrip for a few more mm. I figured I’d stay with the 165 rather than moving to 175, and be a pioneer with the Goodyear Duragrip. Goodyear work pretty well out here. Hopefully, as a “pioneer”, I don’t simply end up with an arrow in my back

p.s. Geoff’s wife has been banned from providing any future advice to customers

Pete

[BajaRon]

Sooooooo. Update after discussions with the Ikon owner, Ron ……

The idea of the extra 10mm on the “special” Ikon shock is to give you a 4 mm vertical head start on raising the Spyder body, thus limiting big preload increases, which Ikon are always concerned about on the Spyder due to its touchy front end geometry. The extra 4mm of vertical height from the “special” shock is primarily for those who want to gain an overall 10-15 mm of height from stock, but a wheel alignment would then have to be performed if they went that high.

Geoff (Ikon owner) was quite happy with my 1.5 preload turns on the stock Ikon giving me an extra 5mm, but said he wouldn’t take it much more than that due to potential harshness of ride, even with my 300+lbs. So since my 5mm of gained vertical height on the stock Ikon shock is pretty close to achieving my clearance goal, I am going to leave it at that, and put on a couple of 165/60 Goodyear Duragrip for a few more mm. I figured I’d stay with the 165 rather than moving to 175, and be a pioneer with the Goodyear Duragrip. Goodyear work pretty well out here. Hopefully, as a “pioneer”, I don’t simply end up with an arrow in my back

p.s. Geoff’s wife has been banned from providing any future advice to customers

Pete

It's not so much a gain from original ride height. Though you can do about 1/2" without significantly affecting alignment. It is more about regaining lost original ride height from loading. The heavier the load, the more suspension sag you're going to get. The bike comes with soft suspension settings for the AVERAGE person and loading. Not only can this allow a 1.5" or more of initial sag. But it also allows for exaggerated body dip when driving through depressions or over humps. Upping compression dampening a bit, if your shock allows it, and increasing preload, if done reasonably, will give you exactly what you are looking for. Just recovering that initial sag is going to be HUGE! Not to mention eliminating some unwanted lean and dive in turns.

There is harsh, and there is additional control giving you a more taught ride. I don't see additional control as necessarily being harsh. I can't imagine that experimenting with another 1/2 turn or so would do you any harm at all.

It's all about enjoying the ride! Tinkering and tweaking the ride can be fun!

[Peteoz]

It's not so much a gain from original ride height. Though you can do about 1/2" without significantly affecting alignment. It is more about regaining lost original ride height from loading. The heavier the load, the more suspension sag you're going to get. The bike comes with soft suspension settings for the AVERAGE person and loading. Not only can this allow a 1.5" or more of initial sag. But it also allows for exaggerated body dip when driving through depressions or over humps. Upping compression dampening a bit, if your shock allows it, and increasing preload, if done reasonably, will give you exactly what you are looking for. Just recovering that initial sag is going to be HUGE! Not to mention eliminating some unwanted lean and dive in turns.

There is harsh, and there is additional control giving you a more taught ride. I don't see additional control as necessarily being harsh. I can't imagine that experimenting with another 1/2 turn or so would do you any harm at all.

It's all about enjoying the ride! Tinkering and tweaking the ride can be fun!

Thanks again, Ron. I’ll get the new shoes on in the next couple of days and take it out for a decent test run. The RT felt really good with just the removal of that 5mm or so of sag, and as I said, it cleared the usual suspect bumps and holes. There is indeed rebound adjustment, but I’d rather not fiddle with that as it was set by Ikon for my weight, riding style and road conditions. The replacement of the Kendas will also provide some benefits.

Pete

[BajaRon]

Thanks again, Ron. I’ll get the new shoes on in the next couple of days and take it out for a decent test run. The RT felt really good with just the removal of that 5mm or so of sag, and as I said, it cleared the usual suspect bumps and holes. There is indeed rebound adjustment, but I’d rather not fiddle with that as it was set by Ikon for my weight, riding style and road conditions. The replacement of the Kendas will also provide some benefits.

Pete

My feeling is that adjustments are made to, well, adjust. You paid for those adjustment abilities. Why not give them a try?

All that is needed is to record the change. If it improves things, you're good! If it doesn't, simply return to original setting. Ikon isn't you! They set your shocks for what they thought would work. But it's your bike. And your shocks. You won't know unless you try. Those adjustments are not brain surgery. It won't hurt a thing to see. Just my take on it.

[Peteoz]

Thanks Ron. I’m pretty happy as it stands now, especially once I get the Goodyears on. I may adjust the preload up once notch just to see how it goes, but that will be all.

Pete

[AlanSmith7]

I also wanted to do the same but I can’t I hope you find out your desired results then please also share them with us.