Is there a way to get more punch off the line?

[Rogue Hawk]

What was your choice, pedalcommander or pedalbox, the only thing i see different is the pedalbox is waterproof, and the pedal box isn't, so needs a bit more care , mounting...wise

Not sure. There does not seem to be much of a difference.

If used in combination with an ecu flash, would that enhance the experience more?

[BajaRon]

Not sure. There does not seem to be much of a difference.

If used in combination with an ecu flash, would that enhance the experience more?

An ECU flash negates the need for a throttle modification unit. But I think the majority will be more than satisfied with a PedalBox or similar. Regardless of what else it may or may not do. It does not hurt anything, makes the ride much more responsive and a great deal more fun to ride for not much money.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

An ECU flash negates the need for a throttle modification unit. But I think the majority will be more than satisfied with a PedalBox or similar. Regardless of what else it may or may not do. It does not hurt anything, makes the ride much more responsive and a great deal more fun to ride for not much money.

IMHO if your going to spend $ 289.00 for a Pedal Box controller. Monster fuel can do the ECU for approx. $ 350.00 .... to me this is a no brainer, cost wise ...... Mike

[DickB]

Sounds like they just ramp up the throttle quicker.
Like when you change the throttle on a motorcycle from a 180 degree to a 90 degree one.
Both open the throttle the same amount, just one does it faster and with less movement of your wrist.

Yes. In reality though I would say half right. Less movement of your wrist, but not significantly faster. Attached is an oscilloscope trace of the Ryker twist grip signal with my twisting fully open as fast as I can. Note the time scale is 20mS per division. So I got to full twist in 80 MS - less than 1/10 second. The right vertical line intersection with the red trace shows the signal level that the ECU would see with Pedal Commander with the grip twisted to the same amount (30%) as the left vertical line. In other words, to get the same signal level to the ECU as Pedal Commander would, but without one, I would need to add the time to twist from 30% to 50%, which is the amount of time between the vertical lines - 20 mS, or 0.02 seconds. So yes, that is faster, but I question the significance of that short of a time reduction.

But notice from Pedal Commander's graph, their ramp is actually slower at the upper end. So the time to twist to 100% signal is exactly the same in both cases, the exact same time.

30-50.jpg


Except for Pedal Commander's Eco mode, Pedal Commander starts with a high rate of sensitivity at low RPMs, and less sensitivity at high RPMS. For best control of wheelspin, that is exactly opposite of what you want. The Mercedes '99 SLK ECU design enhances control. Up to about 1/2 pedal travel, the sensitivity is low. Above that, the sensitivity is high. You don't loose an ounce of power, or any significant time to get to it, but you gain control.

SLK.jpg

I don't know the Ryker ECU's transfer function, but I would not be surprised if it does something similar as Mercedes in Normal mode. We know that it reduces sensitivity in ECO mode:

"The ECO (fuel economy mode) setting reduces fuel consumption by limiting throttle response and maximum throttle opening to maintain an optimal cruising setting."

In my mind, Pedal Commander Sport+ mode is ridiculous - 80+% twist grip signal at 10% twist. How can you modulate wheelspin with that? But that statement is just my opinion.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Yes. In reality though I would say half right. Less movement of your wrist, but not significantly faster. Attached is an oscilloscope trace of the Ryker twist grip signal with my twisting fully open as fast as I can. Note the time scale is 20mS per division. So I got to full twist in 80 MS - less than 1/10 second. The right vertical line intersection with the red trace shows the signal level that the ECU would see with Pedal Commander with the grip twisted to the same amount (30%) as the left vertical line. In other words, to get the same signal level to the ECU as Pedal Commander would, but without one, I would need to add the time to twist from 30% to 50%, which is the amount of time between the vertical lines - 20 mS, or 0.02 seconds. So yes, that is faster, but I question the significance of that short of a time reduction.

But notice from Pedal Commander's graph, their ramp is actually slower at the upper end. So the time to twist to 100% signal is exactly the same in both cases, the exact same time.

30-50.jpg


Except for Pedal Commander's Eco mode, Pedal Commander starts with a high rate of sensitivity at low RPMs, and less sensitivity at high RPMS. For best control of wheelspin, that is exactly opposite of what you want. The Mercedes '99 SLK ECU design enhances control. Up to about 1/2 pedal travel, the sensitivity is low. Above that, the sensitivity is high. You don't loose an ounce of power, or any significant time to get to it, but you gain control. I don't know the Ryker ECU's transfer function, but I would not be surprised if it does something similar in Normal mode. We know that it reduces sensitivity in ECO mode:
The ECO (fuel economy mode) setting reduces fuel consumption by limiting throttle response and maximum throttle opening to maintain an optimal cruising setting.

SLK.jpg

I don't know the Ryker ECU's transfer function, but I would not be surprised if it does something similar as Mercedes in Normal mode. We know that it reduces sensitivity in ECO mode:

"The ECO (fuel economy mode) setting reduces fuel consumption by limiting throttle response and maximum throttle opening to maintain an optimal cruising setting."

In my mind, Pedal Commander Sport+ mode is ridiculous - 80+% twist grip signal at 10% twist. How can you modulate wheelspin with that? But that statement is just my opinion.

DickB .... you are ...... it doesn't matter to the " true believers " ...... JMHO ..... Mike

[DickB]

DickB .... you are ...... it doesn't matter to the " true believers " ...... JMHO ..... Mike

Yes; similar reaction in the SLK community 16 years ago. But here the OP asked a legit question and got some dubious advice, so I throw this out there for people with an open mind.

It's interesting to note that when I sent my analysis and questions to Sprint Booster for comment, I got no response. Just like I did not get an explanation from Pedal Commander on how their device supports their claims. Despite their marketing hype, the manufacturer's engineers obviously know exactly what their devices can and cannot do - the marketeers just don't want to admit it. They do have lots of happy customers and are making a big profit on these simple devices, so obviously they don't care to impact sales with fact.

[blacklightning]

IMHO if your going to spend $ 289.00 for a Pedal Box controller. Monster fuel can do the ECU for approx. $ 350.00 .... to me this is a no brainer, cost wise ...... Mike

I see what you are saying 100% (btw, they can be had for about $239). But knowing that the pedal box and pedal commander doesn't change any other engine parameters and appears to be 100% safe was the deciding factor for me. Plus the fact that the seat of pants feel makes it seem faster was enough to convince me. I just don't know about sending my ecu off. I know the possibility of something happening to it is slim, but with my luck, I would be the first one. I am actually going to do the pedal commander on my mustang.

[BajaRon]

We've got 2 virtually identical F3's. We've got Pedalbox on one. We will get the ECU flash on the other. This will give us a real world comparison which should be interesting.

[mandytuning]

From now i bet the flash is gonna kick his a..

[Peteoz]

I just don't know about sending my ecu off. I know the possibility of something happening to it is slim, but with my luck, I would be the first one. I am actually going to do the pedal commander on my mustang.

Yes, that was the deciding factor for me in going the Pedal Commander route, blacklightning. The retune on my F3 was brilliant ($800 out here, Mike), it removed the lag, made it very smooth even during quick acceleration, but since that lag removal was my biggest bugbear, and since Australia Post appear to be constantly “mislaying” packages these days, I decided on the Pedal route.
”works as advertised”

Did you know that at least one of the ECM tuners (Monster, maybe), now has a unit you can purchase for home which contains the Spyder tune, blacklightning? No need to mail your ECM. You simply plug it in and remap. You can remove the map at any time. Unfortunately, they hadn’t made their way to Aus when I purchased the Pedal.

Pete

[Peteoz]

From now i bet the flash is gonna kick his a..

As it should, Mandytuning. The flash is the more expensive, more complete option. .

Pete

[Rogue Hawk]

I do understand that they don't increase power.
Some of you say both solutions do not add standing response, and some say they do Also, what ecu tunes would help?

[blacklightning]

Although there is no increase in power with the pedal box or pedal commander, there is quite a difference coming off the line. 3 weeks ago I was on my 2016 F3 Limited, another friend was on his 2021 F3T. Both if them had the pedal commander. Another friend was with us on his 2021 F3S. He could not keep up off the line to save his life. 2 weeks later we rode together and he was telling me that he ordered a pedal commander. When I asked him why, he commented that he was trying his best, and could not keep up with us off the line. So to those that say "just simply twist the throttle more and you will get the same effects", that is NOT TRUE! You cannot twist the throttle enough on a stock spyder to keep up with the same or even near same spyder with a pedal box or pedal commander. This is not an opinion, it is a fact that I have seen first hand.

[DickB]

So to those that say "just simply twist the throttle more and you will get the same effects", that is NOT TRUE! \

It is absolutely true. Just look at Pedal Commander's own graph, and you can see this. Pedal Commander plugs in between the twist grip and the ECU. The only thing it can alter is the twist grip signal to the ECU. On the Ryker this signal is a simple analog voltage varying from 0V no twist to 1V full twist. In either case, with or without Pedal Commander, 100% twist delivers the exact same 1V max signal to the ECU. You can match any voltage in between by twisting a different amount with or without Pedal Commander. This is pretty basic electronics, which can easily be proven with a simple multimeter.

[Warlock]

Quote: The Pedal Commander increases (or decreases) the sensitivity of the twist grip, but does not improve throttle response. If you improve the sensitivity you improve throttle response. There is a big difference using one and not using one. No added hp, but delivering the hp quicker to you. Bottom line if you want one buy it.
David

[DickB]

Quote: The Pedal Commander increases (or decreases) the sensitivity of the twist grip, but does not improve throttle response. If you improve the sensitivity you improve throttle response. There is a big difference using one and not using one. No added hp, but delivering the hp quicker to you. Bottom line if you want one buy it.
David

This is Pedal Commander's definition of throttle response:
“… throttle response is actually a measurement of the time taken for a change in power output”.

Let's take this step-by-step:

1. Ryker has a throttle-by-wire system.
2. The twist grip sends a signal to the ECU to indicate its position.
3. The throttle is operated by a servo motor in the throttle body.
4. The ECU controls the throttle servo motor.
5. The twist grip signal to the ECU is an analog voltage, about 0V at no twist and 1V at full twist.
6. Pedal Commander plugs in between the twist grip and the ECU.
7. Pedal Commander alters the analog voltage from the twist grip to the ECU as per a graph published by Pedal Commander.
8. At 30% twist, the voltage out of the twist grip is .3V, while the Pedal Commander voltage to the ECU is .5V (in City mode).
9. At 50% twist, the voltage out of the twist grip is .5V, while the Pedal Commander voltage to the ECU is .7V (in City mode).
10. 50% twist without Pedal Commander delivers the same analog voltage to the ECU as 30% twist with Pedal Commander, which is .5V.
11. 100% twist in either case delivers 1V to the ECU.
12. The ECU is not altered by Pedal Commander.
13. Given the same voltage input to the ECU, the ECU is going to set the throttle position in the same manner.

(Please point out if you believe that any of these statements is not true.)

If I twist the grip 100% with or without Pedal Commander, per pedal Commander's own chart the signal to the ECU is the same, therefore the throttle is opened the same, in the same amount of time. How is that delivering the hp quicker?

[Piratezz]

@dickb,

I have both, Pedal Commander and specific for my riding needs, ECU tuning. I had the tuning before the Pedal Box, and the Pedal Box does make a difference. When you drive the Spyder without pedal box, you need to twist your wrist further than with the Pedal Box. 20% twist, is a further opened throttle body. I am absolutely not bashing anyone, but the Spyder picks up speed in an easier way.

Again, all the Pedal Box or Commander does is to send an increased signal to the ECU, thus opening the throttle body faster, making the overall feeling faster...

There is a downside to this Pedal Box - when driving relaxed and in Sport Mode, you need to keep your right hand quite still, cause every mm of twist or movement will give you a greater throttle response, making the bike nervous, altho it is easily settled by changing the setting.

For me it makes a difference - from my own experience.

[190243]

I’ll leave mine alone. It goes quick enough.

[Knizar]

I’ll leave mine alone. It goes quick enough.

The way I see it, your is like a pistol. Putting either "Pedal" on it is like grinding down the trigger mechanism, creating a hair trigger. The response can be extremely touchy. The "ECU Flash" is like adding gun powder to the bullet, making it go faster in a hurry. Adding "Both Pedal & Flash" turns it into an armor piercing weapon!
My stock 1330 Spyder "Could" kill me just as dead right out of the box. JMHO Bill

[Warlock]

This is Pedal Commander's definition of throttle response:
“… throttle response is actually a measurement of the time taken for a change in power output”.

Let's take this step-by-step:

1. Ryker has a throttle-by-wire system.
2. The twist grip sends a signal to the ECU to indicate its position.
3. The throttle is operated by a servo motor in the throttle body.
4. The ECU controls the throttle servo motor.
5. The twist grip signal to the ECU is an analog voltage, about 0V at no twist and 1V at full twist.
6. Pedal Commander plugs in between the twist grip and the ECU.
7. Pedal Commander alters the analog voltage from the twist grip to the ECU as per a graph published by Pedal Commander.
8. At 30% twist, the voltage out of the twist grip is .3V, while the Pedal Commander voltage to the ECU is .5V (in City mode).
9. At 50% twist, the voltage out of the twist grip is .5V, while the Pedal Commander voltage to the ECU is .7V (in City mode).
10. 50% twist without Pedal Commander delivers the same analog voltage to the ECU as 30% twist with Pedal Commander, which is .5V.
11. 100% twist in either case delivers 1V to the ECU.
12. The ECU is not altered by Pedal Commander.
13. Given the same voltage input to the ECU, the ECU is going to set the throttle position in the same manner.

(Please point out if you believe that any of these statements is not true.)

If I twist the grip 100% with or without Pedal Commander, per pedal Commander's own chart the signal to the ECU is the same, therefore the throttle is opened the same, in the same amount of time. How is that delivering the hp quicker?

I agree with a 100% throttle. But your statement states what I was saying. At 50% with the pedal commander vs none the voltage is greater which will open the throttle quicker. If there was a way to race with the flick of a switch from 0 to 100% a pedal commander wouldn't make a difference. If you and I were racing and went to 100%, on the way there we have to pass each parameter. Your 50% throttle isn't as fast as my 50%. That is why I say it delivers the hp quicker 'til you get to the 100% throttle. Not arguing but your stats prove what I was saying. I know an ECU flash will out do a pedal commander.
David

[DickB]

I agree with a 100% throttle. But your statement states what I was saying. At 50% with the pedal commander vs none the voltage is greater which will open the throttle quicker. If there was a way to race with the flick of a switch from 0 to 100% a pedal commander wouldn't make a difference. If you and I were racing and went to 100%, on the way there we have to pass each parameter. Your 50% throttle isn't as fast as my 50%. That is why I say it delivers the hp quicker 'til you get to the 100% throttle. Not arguing but your stats prove what I was saying. I know an ECU flash will out do a pedal commander.
David

Technically you're correct, but the difference between your 50% and mine is .02 seconds (I measured this electronically) - not significant in my opinion. Also, throttle opening speed is limited by the slew rate of the servo motor, which may mean no difference at all.

⁶

[DickB]

Also note that while Pedal Commander increases sensitivity at low twist, it decreases sensitivity at high twist.

[DGoebel]

Filters, (K&N or not), Oil, Tires, now this. You guys just love arguing and trying to prove your point as if others really care about YOUR point. I LOVE what my Pedal Box has done for my Spyder. The OP roguehawk hasn't even chipped in since he thanked the early responders and you few are just arguing "politics".
HEY, have ANY Pedal Box or Pedal Commander owners Removed them because they didn't get what they expected.
I get some of you want "something" that others may not "understand", but you're beating a dead horse here. Now my oil is better than yours and I can look up internet stats to prove it.
(But, I'll accede that BlueKnight Mike is always right about tires, He is, and I always look to his latest recommendations when buying new tires, Thank-you Mike).
Just trying to end on an up note!

[Piratezz]

Mine would kill me a bit faster....

[Knizar]

Mine would kill me a bit faster....

But Y Rush it! No Pain, No Gain... Bill