Tires.... discussing tread types & patterns.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I didnt know the speedometer is not correct on the Spyders, So you are saying my 22 RTL is not accurate ? and if so, how far off ?

About 3 mph.

That's at the 60 to 70 mph speed range.

[MarkN]

I have read this thread with great interest and appreciate everyone’s comments. Tire pressures have been commented on. Everything I’ve read says to run the pressures on the frame tag which would be for the stock tires. My question is, with the stiffer sidewall construction of car tires, what would be a good starting point for pressures?

[Longtimer]

I thought I read some where that the 225 60 15 would put the tire very close to the front of the swing arm on a 2020 RTL is this right?? That's why the 215 60 15 was the one to use because of the outside diameter of the tire and also it raised the back of the spyder up higher because the air adjustment went off swing arm not true height of rear of bike say back fender from ground. Lots of good info THANKS. TO EVERYONE

[Crewless]

Even though cord separation, when moved to the other side of the vehicle, has been somewhat solved the belts, depending on the make of the tire, have a small tendency to become unbalanced. It's best to just move back and forth. not a problem on the spyder.

[Peter Aawen]

About 3 mph.

That was only on your Spyder K80, and the variation may not be the same on anyone else's Spyder or vehicle! The variation can be & quite likely IS different for each different machine, altho because the gauges are all made basically the same way, some errors may be juust something vaguely similar; others may be very close to yours; but just as equally, there's very likely some out there that are waaayyy off that 3mph error you were lucky enough to get!! So please, be aware that while your error might be close to someone else's, THE ERROR CAN BE DIFFERENT FOR EACH MACHINE &/OR GAUGE!

For example, when it was new, the 'error' on my 2013 RT on stock tires at the tire placard pressures & an indicated 100 kmh was 13 kmh, or pretty close to 8mph (it's since been calibrated to be accurate with the tires I'm currently running & recently checked/confirmed! ) but the error on the 2010 RT I test rode a year or so earlier than that was only 7 kmh at 100 kmh or about 4.3 mph; and the error on an F3 (IIRC, a 2015 or so?!?) I looked at a 6-8 weeks or so ago was only 3 kmh or just under 2 mph.... and I've recently been talking to the owner of a brand new RT who's worked out that his speedo error is 14 kmh at 100kmh or about 8.7 mph, altho I'm not sure how he arrived at that or what tire pressure he was running, etc....

The point is, the error that YOUR Spyder's speedo (or odo/trip meter - and btw, that error isn't necessarily the same as the speedo error, it can be a different error! ) shows on stock tires etc MAY NOT be the same error evident on anyone else's Spyder - you really need to check each gauge & the speed & distance travelled readings individually! Short of spending a fair whack of money to get your speed/odo individually calibrated to a given, better accuracy by a calibration authority or company, the easiest way that most people will readily have access to in order to work out their machine's individual error is by comparing the indicated speed on their speedo with the actual speed displayed by a good quality GPS that polls at least 8 satellites or so using a reading taken on a straight & level road with no or few overhead/surrounding obstructions like hills, trees, buildings etc. Any of those GPS based 'street navigators' or smartphones that don't use/poll at least that many satelites to arrive at their 'speed' reading or distance travelled may not be accurate enough or responsive enough to reveal a truely useful error reading; and those radar speed display things or road mile markers that you see on the side of the road or hanging off bridges etc rarely are useful because of the inherent difficulties in reading both at the same time, altho they MIGHT be accurate enough to give you some idea if you can read both that quickly; but just as equally, they MIGHT NOT even be in the ballpark of reality &/or timing!

But whatever error YOU get on your machine is rarely ever truely useful as anything except a vague indicator or a WAG for anyone else/their machine!

Just Sayin'

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

That was only on your Spyder K80, and the variation may not be the same on anyone else's Spyder or vehicle! The variation can be & quite likely IS different for each different machine, altho because the gauges are all made basically the same way, some errors may be juust something vaguely similar; others may be very close to yours; but just as equally, there's very likely some out there that are waaayyy off that 3mph error you were lucky enough to get!! So please, be aware that while your error might be close to someone else's, THE ERROR CAN BE DIFFERENT FOR EACH MACHINE &/OR GAUGE!

On the other hand, Peter, the 3 mph number has pretty much been the only number I recall seeing quoted here on the forum. I was going to say 3 mph but K80 beat me to it! But your comment is true. One person's error is no guarantee the next person's error will be the same.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I have read this thread with great interest and appreciate everyone’s comments. Tire pressures have been commented on. Everything I’ve read says to run the pressures on the frame tag which would be for the stock tires. My question is, with the stiffer sidewall construction of car tires, what would be a good starting point for pressures?

Both Peter and I suggest 15 to 17 psi for both front and rear will give the best ride .... Add a lb. or two if you ride aggressive or the weight of the driver / passenger & gear is over 350 lbs. .... this is for AUTO tires only..... Mike

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I thought I read some where that the 225 60 15 would put the tire very close to the front of the swing arm on a 2020 RTL is this right?? That's why the 215 60 15 was the one to use because of the outside diameter of the tire and also it raised the back of the spyder up higher because the air adjustment went off swing arm not true height of rear of bike say back fender from ground. Lots of good info THANKS. TO EVERYONE

Well according to other members here who use that size it will fit, but Yes it is closer to the swing arm ..... I doubt that the slightly larger circumference is an issue with ride height .... it just isn't enough to matter ..... Mike

[lvmyspyder]

Evening and thank you for everyone for weighing in on this. Bought the 225 60 15 from Tire Rack initially. As long as I have an order in for the 215 60 15, which I put in today, they will cover the shipping back and issue a full refund - which I thought was pretty awesome of them. I really appreciated the input on this thread and the information shared. I learned new things and our conversations made me think long and hard about which way I was going to go with this. Regardless of that, you all made me think of things I had not considered. Of course what we do to our bikes is personal, however, I have learned that one can learn a lot by listening and being open to what others are teaching. Appreciate the forum, the opportunity to bat things around and get enough information to make an informed decision. Thank you.

[lvmyspyder]

Here is what the 215 60 15 General Altimax RT45 looks like if you wanted to see it. Again, thank you for all the feedback and information shared here.

[PMK]

2014 RTS, speedometer error was 3 mph with oem Kenda and also the Yokohama s.Drive rear tire. Chose rear tire for improved performance with no concern for speedometer error. Recalibrated speedometer to exactly match the GPS speed.

[PMK]

General 'Rules of Thumb'

Typically, you will trade improved traction (especially wet traction) for a higher mileage tire. A long lasting tire has to use a harder compound which will not grip the roadway as well.

I do not recommend 'Summer' tires in any format for the Spyder/Ryker. Unless you are only going to be riding when pavement is 70 degrees or above. Once the pavement begins to cool, (especially as these summer tires begin to wear) they tend to get slick. It is not so dramatic in a car because of the additional weight. With the relatively light Spyder (especially in the rear) the difference can be pretty dramatic.

If you ride when the pavement is 40 degrees or less, Summer Tires can be very slick, no matter how good or dry the pavement is. This tire compound is specifically designed to give extremely good traction with warm or hot pavement. They are a 1 trick pony. For most of us, we need a good 'All Season' tire.

At the very least. If you're running a 'Summer' tire. Be aware of these tendencies.

Agree that typically, to have a longer lasting or higher mileage life, the tire is a firmer rubber compound that has reduced grip when compared to a performance tire that often utilizes a softer rubber compound.

In an effort to minimize another Bancation, I will simply politely disagree with your opinions about summer tires, the 70*f temp you mentioned as critical is new to me and not a temp I have seen published by a tire manufacturer or anyone for that matter, but will say that your referencing 40*f mimics the temperature Yokohama stated as the minimum for Summer High Performance tires.

After the previous topic regarding touring tires vs high performance tires, I enjoyed a lunchtime conversation with my friend, discussing Spyders and in particular Spyder tires, he shared his opinion with me. Understand that his experience as both an IMSA and Indycar driver and team owner allows him to offer a different perspective regarding tire performance and grip than most other drivers. Our conversation took place after my recent posts regarding comparing more equally touring tires vs performance tires. He did comment, as did BajaRon, typically a quality tire offering more grip, will run a softer compound and obtain less wear mileage before worn out.
His other statement regarding why touring tires are adequate on Spyders vs aiming for increased performance from high performance tires, the Spyder simply does not need high performance tires. In short, and I do agree with him, the Spyder, especially the chassis lacks the ability to require anything more than touring tires. High performance tires can be run, but the chassis itself can not fully appreciate the added grip. He also commented that regardless of how much improved grip, whether substantial or a fraction of a difference, the high performance tires will provide increased grip, but again, the Spyder chassis is more likely the limiting factor.

His comments to me were interesting. Interesting in that yes our Spyder rolls on high performance front tires and summer high performance rear tire. Having adequate grip has never been an issue. I do run 20 psi in all three tires, finding that less in the fronts offers up the feeling of the outside front tire tire trying to tuck under the rim. The rear tends to wag about at less than 20 psi. What his comment had me considering is that for years, if ridden through corners, at cornering forces within the tires ability, the Spyder RT swingarm, long in length, and made from mild steel can be felt flexing. The front A arms can be witnessed flexing under braking, so very likely flex while cornering, and the frame, not being multi dimensional or braced, no doubt is winding up on the longitudinal axis. I support my opinion regarding the 2019 and prior RT series chassis lacking rigidity, on account that when Can Am introduced the F3 series in 2015, it arrived with a rear swingarm that is trussed, and a frame with bolt on braces / stiffeners. In summary, the F3, being a much lighter vehicle, with a lower CG apparently required these chassis improvements.

With all that said, it might suggest, that most decent touring tires, provided they retain grip until well worn, are fully adequate based on the performance level the Spyder chassis can provide. Yes, higher performance tires can be installed and run, will provide more grip, but very unlikely be fully utilized to the tires limit.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

In regards to your post #37, ( above ) having input from someone knowledgeable about actual racing is very valuable. ...... The next time you are discussing this with them ask how many of these race cars have traction systems that are controlled ( and limited ) by Computers - like our Spyders are. I suspect they will say NONE. The Spyders are more limited by those systems than any structural limitations. The traction supplied by " all season " tires easily exceeds the limit the computers are designed with...... Mike

[PMK]

In regards to your post #37, ( above ) having input from someone knowledgeable about actual racing is very valuable. ...... The next time you are discussing this with them ask how many of these race cars have traction systems that are controlled ( and limited ) by Computers - like our Spyders are. I suspect they will say NONE. The Spyders are more limited by those systems than any structural limitations. The traction supplied by " all season " tires easily exceeds the limit the computers are designed with...... Mike

Mike, I agree fully, all Spyders, unless modified are detuned from the factory both in engine output and chassis electronics for reasons deemed by BRP. As I conveyed in my post, structurally, the Spyder RT chassis is very soft. On our machine, having performance suspension items on it, these added items lessen involvement from the onboard computers. Even the most evasive actions never trigger a nanny light. Now if I ride a tight apex and bump the inside tire over an edge, then yes, the nanny gets confused expecting a rollover.

The increased grip from tires prevents wheel spin, skidding a tire, understeer or oversteer. (All assuming dry traction) Regarding the the vehicle attitude sensors, our modified Spyder, compared to a stock Spyder retains a very, very flat attitude during direction changes or cornering. All things considered, I still believe the soft chassis becomes the limiting factor in several ways. Tires, whether high end touring tires, middle range touring tires, or performance tires are not the Spyders limiting factor. On our Spyder, the computers are not a limiting factor either.

Lunch yesterday, I explained my intentions for altering the Spyders front roll center. We discussed this, plus bump steer and more. He laughed when I explained how poorly designed the Spyders steering system is, and how the front suspension does the worst thing when compressed, it toes out. So at the times when stability is desired, cornering and under hard braking, the outside wheel, or bo th wheels toe out, which is bad. A flexy chassis, with steering that bump steer toes out, is not a good thing performance handling wise. I have the tooling and skills to measure bump steer toe out, but decided it best that I should not know.

[lvmyspyder]

The blinders come off the more we discuss this topic, which I for one greatly appreciate. The older I get the, more value I get from listening to others perspective and experience. As well, the more I understand about variables, cause and effect and so how things are very intertwined relating specifically to function and capability. For example, never thought of the the chassis being a limitation when evaluating tire choices. I only know one thing for certain, although somewhat limited, thank goodness we have other choices and are not stuck with OEM Kenda tires, which if you will forgive me are quite literally the worst tire that can be run on these fine bikes, which is again, only this man's option and two cents and likely worth about half of that...

[larryd]

I have a question about tire traction ratings...I've been following this thread and find it very informative...

I plan to replace my Michelin Hydo Edge tire this winter...This is a "water shedding type tread tire" AND I REALLY LIKED THIS TIRE...

Traction rating is "A"...The TOURING tire I plan to use is also a Traction rating "A"...I see that most are using ALL SEASON Tires that are Traction rated "A"...

So my question is; In order to be rated "A"... ARE ALL THESE TIRES TESTED UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS TO RECEIVE THE "A" RATING???

SO ARE THE WATER SHEDDING TIRES, THE TOURING TIRES & THE ALL SEASON TIRES ALL GIVE THE EXACT SAME WET PERFORMANCE WITH THE "A" RATING???

[PMK]

I have a question about tire traction ratings...I've been following this thread and find it very informative...

I plan to replace my Michelin Hydo Edge tire this winter...This is a "water shedding type tread tire" AND I REALLY LIKED THIS TIRE...

Traction rating is "A"...The TOURING tire I plan to use is also a Traction rating "A"...I see that most are using ALL SEASON Tires that are Traction rated "A"...

So my question is; In order to be rated "A"... ARE ALL THESE TIRES TESTED UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS TO RECEIVE THE "A" RATING???

SO ARE THE WATER SHEDDING TIRES, THE TOURING TIRES & THE ALL SEASON TIRES ALL GIVE THE EXACT SAME WET PERFORMANCE WITH THE "A" RATING???

No doubt the two tire experts will chime in on this. That rating though is a bit misleading. While it is standardized test, it is a wet traction test, not dry traction. All the ratings are easily explained via the internet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unifor...uality_Grading

[Peter Aawen]

......

So my question is; In order to be rated "A"... ARE ALL THESE TIRES TESTED UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS TO RECEIVE THE "A" RATING???

SO ARE THE WATER SHEDDING TIRES, THE TOURING TIRES & THE ALL SEASON TIRES ALL GIVE THE EXACT SAME WET PERFORMANCE WITH THE "A" RATING???

Without going into a whole lot of detail, much of which is covered in the link PMK provided above (look at the comments on who conducts the tests, & on the limitations of the treadwear gradings, which may also apply to other gradings! ) the answer to your question in bold above is broadly speaking, basically a YES!

However, while the answer to the next bit is not quite so clear cut ( ) it too is touched upon in the link; but at it's simplest, the answer to that second bit of your question is NO, not necessarily, their individual performance can vary somewhat with the range covered by that grading under those standardised test conditions, but they do all achieve AT LEAST SOMEWHERE in the range for that grading, without being good enough to achieve the next higher grading or poor enough to fall below that grading. And as mentioned in the link:

..... The testing does not take into account cornering, hydroplaning, acceleration or stopping on a dry surface. Nor does it account for the significantly different effectiveness of ABS versus non-ABS braking systems on a tire's stopping distance. ....

So the UTOG standards are a measurable & repeatable method of grading the treadwear, traction, & temperature shedding ability of a tire under the given conditions when subjected to the standardised testing methodology, which only minimises but does not remove all the possible variables that may affect your actual driving/riding, simply because no-one can account for all the possible variations that may occur & impact your particular driving/riding & the resulting effect upon your tires! But if you're looking at tires that have achieved different gradings, they're still a good guide to help you make a choice - and if you're looking at tires that have all achieved the same standard gradings, then you know that they are all capable of performing within the same range in those tests, and therefore are going to have similar minimum capabilities in real life, even if some might be a little better than others - but they weren't good enough to get into the next higher grading (if there is one, ie. they were good enough to be graded as an A, but weren't up to AA level)

Help any?!

[BajaRon]

In an effort to minimize another Bancation, I will simply politely disagree with your opinions about summer tires, the 70*f temp you mentioned as critical is new to me and not a temp I have seen published by a tire manufacturer or anyone for that matter, but will say that your referencing 40*f mimics the temperature Yokohama stated as the minimum for Summer High Performance tires.

I hope you don't mind me pulling out this single line from your reply. It's the only one I wanted to address and the post was fairly long.

First, not withstanding the oversite decisions made by the moderators. I never mind an opposing opinion. Everyone should be free to have their say. But I understand where you're coming from there. Some take things very personal.

I do need to clarify the 70 degree statement I made about summer tires. This (as you point out) is not any industry standard. But more of a Seat of the Pants experience I've had with a summer tire on my Spyder.

Car tire makers account for the expected weight the tire will be carrying as a factor in traction. As well they should. More weight means more traction in many situations. Our Spyders are much lighter than a car. Especially the rear wheel. And we know that as road surface temperatures dip, traction of a summer tire can suffer. 70 degrees may be a bit high. But my purpose was to inform that temperature can be a substantial detriment to a summer tire. On a very light Spyder rear tire. In my very limited experience, degradation may be felt in temperatures below 70 degrees (pavement, not ambient air).

I am always about discussion. It benefits us all.

[RapidSpyder]

Like the look of this tread, can’t wait to try it out.

35B68D6A-5ED7-4979-AEDE-DEAD0D146853.jpg

[larryd]

Like the look of this tread, can’t wait to try it out.

35B68D6A-5ED7-4979-AEDE-DEAD0D146853.jpg

Looks very similar to the Michelin Hydro Edge...larryd

[PMK]

I hope you don't mind me pulling out this single line from your reply. It's the only one I wanted to address and the post was fairly long.

First, not withstanding the oversite decisions made by the moderators. I never mind an opposing opinion. Everyone should be free to have their say. But I understand where you're coming from there. Some take things very personal.

I do need to clarify the 70 degree statement I made about summer tires. This (as you point out) is not any industry standard. But more of a Seat of the Pants experience I've had with a summer tire on my Spyder.

Car tire makers account for the expected weight the tire will be carrying as a factor in traction. As well they should. More weight means more traction in many situations. Our Spyders are much lighter than a car. Especially the rear wheel. And we know that as road surface temperatures dip, traction of a summer tire can suffer. 70 degrees may be a bit high. But my purpose was to inform that temperature can be a substantial detriment to a summer tire. On a very light Spyder rear tire. In my very limited experience, degradation may be felt in temperatures below 70 degrees (pavement, not ambient air).

I am always about discussion. It benefits us all.

Yes, discussion, a near perfect word to describe your reply, and this reply by me.

Simply, thank you for clarifying the 70*f references. I am unsure of which tire you ran and experienced it giving up grip at 70*f, and living here in SoFlo, obviously typical asphalt temps are well above 40*f and often well above 70*f. However, even in the cooler months, when asphalt temps are below 70*f, I have yet to experience an issue running a summer high performance tire on the rear. By your words though, you found a tire that did perform less than expected.

Still being mindful to avoid Bancation, and responding to your reply is simply discussion, your words very closely match my previous posts in the other topic. The vehicles weight on wheels (WOW) has a significant effect on the tires ability to grip the road surface. I fully agree with this. Expanding that further, and this was not well received in the other topic, touring tires are designed for heavier vehicles, and touring tires have less grip when compared equally to a performance tire (touring tires have even less grip than a summer high performance tire on a warm road surface).

Therefore WOW is a consideration. However, as my race driver friend suggested, maybe the Spyders performance ability, limitations of the design and chassis parameters, do not allow the increased grip offered by the performance tires to be utilized. Touring Tires, even though by design having less grip, fill the balance of cost, longevity, and available grip to make Spyder owners happy since they check the boxes of low cost, longevity, and the owners are not pushing their Spyder to the limits of the tires grip. Add to this many Spyder owners on this forum run tire pressures derived on the 4 psi increase at typical operating temps. This method / formula was not derived for the lighter weight Spyders, but rather derived for the heavier WOW vehicles. That said, if a typical small SUV with touring tires had an initial pressure of as an example 32 psi cold, and when at temp attained 36 psi, the percentage of pressure difference is far less than a Spyder tire with a cold pressure of 17 psi attaining 21 psi when at operating temp. Percentage wise it seems the SUV is a 12% increase while the Spyder is about 25% increase.

Bajaron, out of curiosity, and for safety to others, the Summer Performance tire you ran, that gave up grip at 70*f road temps, could you share that with us.

[rhino1]

Just wondering what tires u would put on, size and brand, front and rear, on my ‘22 RTL. I ride two up majority of the time, but when I do ride solo, I ride alittle aggressive. Rode two wheels all my life. First spyder. It sounds like a I would really like this spyder even more with different tires. O by the way, I’m turning the big 60 on the 22nd of November.��. Thanx for info. Rhino

[lvmyspyder]

Have read some good things about those tires. Like to hear more about your experience with it later on.

[lvmyspyder]

Hey Ron, thank you for the feedback. I liked the tread pattern and looks and the reviews of many of the premiere "summer tires" for the Spyder. I have spent MANY hours reading up on tires this past year and you are spot on with your assessment and comments and the are supported from a wide variety viewpoints and sources.

Summer tires are designed and manufactured for more ideal summer conditions and since we encounter many different riding conditions, IMHO, I think we put ourselves, or passengers and our machines at risk by not having an "all season" tire on all three corners. I am not an expert by any means, but that is one of the conclusions I have come to in my research.

I am replacing my OEM Kenda (finally) and have already replaced my fronts with Federal Formoza AZ01's. Both perform differently in wet versus dry and hot versus cooler or cold and I am sure position on the bike plays into it as well, but my experience is that in the same riding conditions, the variance in performance is exponentially worse on the OEM Kenda and not just saying that because I personally think that tire is sub-par.