Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Very Active Member CloverHillCrawler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    757
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default Will upgraded shocks help out with toe in due to a heavy load?

    So I have been checking out why I have so much wear on the insides of my front tires as discussed earlier in this thread.... https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...74#post1644674




    I have swapped the tires on the rims to have the wear reversed , and I was hoping that an alignment would help but I saw something last weekend on a trip to ocean city with a group that I ride with that has me thinking it may not help.

    It has been mentioned by other users that they have also seen some unusual inside tire wear on the front tires.

    As discussed in the previous thread it was stated that there is no toe in adjustment for Camber or Caster on a Spyder which leads me to my next observation and a question I have about upgrading my shocks.

    One of the guys in the group had a brand new sea to sky with stock suspension, he weighs just a little bit heavier than I do and I was riding behind him he is about 290 lbs. I found this a perfect opportunity to see how his front tires reacted to his weight while riding and what I saw didn't really surprise me and confirmed what I had been thinking about.

    I was able to observe while he was driving and hitting dips in the road that his tires were flexing inward throwing all of the weight to the inside of the front tire so it really no surprise now that the tire is wearing out on the inside from this flexing.

    Now for my question and hopefully @BajaRon can answer this for me. I am buying a new shocks this spring to accommodate 2 up riding, besides an alignment would there be anything else I would need to do correct this flexing other than the shocks?

    Or are us heavier set guys going to have to buy tires more often due to this flexing?

    2020 F3 SE6

    Safety and Lighting: LED Headlight upgrade, IPS LED Fog lights, Show Chrome LED Fender Signals, LED Signature Light, Tric LED Afterburnerz, MotoHorn 2.0

    Suspension: Wilbers Front and Rear Shocks, BajaRon Sway Bar, Vredestein Quatrac Front and Rear Tires

    Comfort: Blue Ridge Windshield, Corbin Dual Touring Saddle, Ultimate Floorboards, OEM Passenger Backrest with Rear Shelf, OEM Passenger Floorboards Modified with High Risers from Pierre

    Tackform Center Mount Phone Holder w/ rapid charging USB-C.
    2020 F3 , Black

  2. #2
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Will be very curious to read BajaRons reply, seeing if it matches or is similar to how I resolved better handling and no tire issues on my friends 2021 RT Limited. My friend too is a large guy.

  3. #3
    Active Member Rednaxs60's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    299
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    PMK may chime in here as well after my post. The Spyder are tuned for the average rider say some 200 pounds, height say 6'. This all comes into the calculations of centre of gravity and the likes. The OEM suspension suits a generic rider and performance profile.

    There are a few forum threads regarding suspension upgrade in this forum.

    If you are bottoming out with the OEM rear suspension and do not have an air ride assist, you need to increase the spring rate. I would suggest in the 500 to 600 lb/in range. M2 used a spring rate of 525 lb/in for the rear shock for my 2014 RTL. I have changed the rear shock spring to a 600 lb/in spring rate, may go back to the 525 lb/in spring rate - have the air ride assist.

    The tire wear may be from an alignment, may not. It can be from the shocks not supporting the weight of the Spyder, rider(s) and luggage. The OEM front shocks are very light for some rider profiles, and this changes the front suspension geometry.

    I notice from your picture that you have a lot of roll/lean in corners. The more weight that is added to the Spyder from rider and luggage, the centre of gravity will move up and this increases the roll/lean of the Spyder.

    The only way to mitigate this is to increase the front shock spring rate. A beefier sway bar will assist as well, but a sway bar is only in use in a corner. It does not provide any support for the front of the Spyder. It should be considered an assist to the shock for roll/lean reduction.

    I have M2 shocks all round. The front shocks came with a 250 lb/in shock spring, better than the OEM front shock, but still did not provide enough roll/lean reduction that I was/am looking for. Replaced the M2 shock spring with a 300 lb/in shock spring, much better for solo riding, but not quite for two up.

    Did 17,000 Kms with the 300 lb/in front shock springs installed at the factory rebound settings and the ride was quite good, but the roll/lean of the Spyder was still not quite right. The rear shock spring rate of 600 lb/in was sometimes a little harsh during the trip and we were towing a trailer.

    Will be changing he shock spring to a 350 lb/in spring rate before next season. I am presently approximately 240 lbs with riding gear, my lady - impolite to discuss this, but between the two of us, two up riding is my focus for suspension setup. The Spyder should do more work than the rider(s).

    You can order a set of shocks and accept the shock manufacturers recommendation, or have the shock manufacturer install shock springs that are heavier than per its recommendation. I mention this because the aftermarket shock manufacturers shock spring determination is based on a range of rider profiles, in other words a shock spring rate of say 250 lb/in may be suitable for riders in the 200 to 250 lb range. This is predicated on the performance profile as well.

    The road clearance distance is another consideration for tire wear and ride performance.

    You should be able to install the front shocks, adjust the preload for static road clearance as per the OEM factory road clearance with a preload of approximately 1 cm, or you can set the preload a bit more to get an OEM road clearance with yourself on the Spyder. Get a shock that has rebound damping as a minimum and you can dial in the ride quality, the preload adjustment is not to compensate for an improper shock spring rate selection.

    There is not a lot of information available for a Spyder rider to base suspension decisions on.

    Just my thoughts and $0.02 worth regarding the Spyder suspension. Not an expert. but think that the Spyder should do more work than I when I am riding it.

    Good luck.
    "When Writing the Story of Your Life, Don’t Let Anyone Else Hold the Pen"
    "Too many of us are not living our dreams because we are living our fears.” – Les Brown

    2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
    1985 Honda GL1200 Goldwing Limited Edition

    Ernest

  4. #4
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Greeneville, TN
    Posts
    13,519
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    There is Camber, Caster and Toe. Toe can be In or Out. The only adjustment on the Spyder is Toe. This is where I would start the conversation. Most alignments call for just a bit of toe-in.

    Wear on the outer portion of the tire usually indicates too much toe in. Wear on the inner part of the tire usually indicates toe out. (Click on picture to enlarge)

    wheel_toe2.png

    Next we need to talk about ride height and lean. Both can have a great effect on alignment. And alignment is where all of this will end up. Tires live or die based on proper alignment. Not to mention handling, ease of steering, smoothness through turns and accuracy through the curves. Improper alignment can also reduce fuel mileage and top speed (if you care)

    Your Spyder gets aligned at a certain height relationship to the suspension. We call this 'Ride Height'. With a double A-Arm suspension (which is what the Spyder uses) Ride height affects all 3 alignment components. To get an idea of what is happening (and how much). Measure the distance from the front nose of your Spyder to the ground. Then add items to the frunk and saddle bags and climb on with the rider or riders in the manner you intend to travel. Then have someone measure from that same point on the front of your Spyder to the ground. You may find as much as 1" to 2" of ride height (and ground clearance) has been lost. This means your wheel alignment has also been compromised.

    Another negative will be increased and more pronounced possibility of ground strikes with driveway approaches, speed bumps, pot holes, road-kill and large debris on the roadway.

    For the 1st 5 years of Spyder production. All front shocks were adjustable for spring pre-load. This was sorely needed then and BRP fulfilled that need. As the Spyder got larger and heavier, the need increased for a spring pre-load adjustment. Amazingly, BRP decided to remove that feature in 2013. Which brings us to where we are today. To be fair, some models still come come with pre-load adjustment from the factory. However, BRP does not provide the 2 spanner wrenches needed to make this adjustment. The locking rings are so tightly engaged that most have to remove the shock to break them loose. And there is so little room it is difficult to get 2 spanner wrenches into the needed location to make an adjustment.

    Now add in lean angle. The more the lean angle, the more miss-alignment is generated.

    The best results will come when both lean angle and ride height issues are addressed. Fortunately, there are various solutions for both. Advise on exactly which combination of products are best to achieve these improvements usually depends on who you talk to. Now that, folks, is nothing new!
    Last edited by BajaRon; 10-24-2022 at 05:18 PM.
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

    Only SLOW people have to leave on time...





  5. #5
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    73
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Ron, when you set up shocks what do you use as standard ride height w/o rider or luggage? How much sag do you like to see with rider? Thanks
    2018 RT Limited

  6. #6
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Cloverhillcrawler, your somewhat nearby proximity to BajaRons shop, might have you consider a long road trip to allow him to accomplish the variety of things he suggested in his reply and perform a laser alignment at his shop.

  7. #7
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Greeneville, TN
    Posts
    13,519
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunson View Post
    Ron, when you set up shocks what do you use as standard ride height w/o rider or luggage? How much sag do you like to see with rider? Thanks
    The whole point of adjustable spring-preload is to eliminate sag and recover any loss of ride height. You want to bring your Spyder back to the same position at which it was aligned by compensating for additional loading. This is accomplished by increasing spring pre-load. However, the greatest effect on alignment is not front end sag. It is lean angle. This is why the Spyder can get wonky through the turns. Increasing spring stiffness to a point where lean is managed will give you a very harsh ride. That is why it is best to fix the majority of lean issues with a sway bar upgrade, rather than simply getting shocks which are unnecessarily stiff. It's a matter of using the correct tool for the job.

    How much spring pre-load is required varies depending on the load. As mentioned, the proper tool for this aspect is the Shock/Spring component. Correction of ride height cannot be done perfectly. But that isn't critical. Ride height is a Horse-Shoe factor. Close is good enough. Miss-alignment starts slowly and increases in intensity as ride height and or lean increase. In other words. A moderate amount of either won't affect alignment enough to bother. But each additional increment of the the same amount will introduce an ever increasing amount of miss-alignment. So, it is not a linier effect. It is exponential.

    This is why, with a stock suspension. Your worst handling occurs when you both brake and turn into a curve at the same time. The braking initiates front end dive (loss of ride height). And the turn throws in too much lean.

    You can never completely eliminate either of these effects. Your Spyder needs to move up and down as well as lean. However, you can, with the correct improvements, tame these reactions and bring them under control. When you get control of these 2 factors, you will be amazed at how accurate and responsive your Spyder becomes. And it can all be done without creating a harsh or stiff ride. You do not have to sacrifice a nice ride to achieve great handling and freedom from ground strikes. But again, it requires that you apply the correct tools in the right amounts.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 10-25-2022 at 08:50 AM.
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

    Only SLOW people have to leave on time...





  8. #8
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Cloverhillcrawler, since you have plans to replace your oem shocks with M2 shocks, possibly a discussion with Marcus at M2 would help clarify what he suggests, and how this will interface with what BajaRon has posted.

  9. #9
    Very Active Member CloverHillCrawler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    757
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Cloverhillcrawler, since you have plans to replace your oem shocks with M2 shocks, possibly a discussion with Marcus at M2 would help clarify what he suggests, and how this will interface with what BajaRon has posted.
    Sorry about the delay in my response been a busy week this week.


    Ron, thanks for your reply and willing to share your knowledge on the subject it has enlightened me a great bit but also left me a bit confused about lean angle.

    I guess that is what I am seeing when I am watching someone else have the wheels lean inward from the top when they are hitting dips.

    But I didn't get the chance to see on a corner so I guess that would mean both front wheels would lean right on right turns and vice versa?


    PMK, I was planning on getting some M2's and putting them on myself when spring came around and I had some money saved up but I think a trip to Marcus or Ron may be in order to get everything inspected and "straightened out" (sorry could help the pun on that one).

    Unfortunately I had an accident just a couple of months after getting my F3 and it was reframed so it wouldn't surprise me if something "additional" will have to be done to get it right.

    Funny thing though is that it drives straight and handles well with the mix of quatrac's and ron's sway bar so I can't figure where the excessive wear is coming from unless I am really pushing this thing too hard on the mountain and valley roads around here.

    The only real problem I have had is 2 up and bottoming out on the back tire with the wife onboard.

    With as much fun as the tail of the dragon was for a social experience it didn't really live up to the hype for me for driving after being on some of the very narrow and rough roads in the mountains around Md. and Pa..
    Last edited by CloverHillCrawler; 10-25-2022 at 06:08 PM.

    2020 F3 SE6

    Safety and Lighting: LED Headlight upgrade, IPS LED Fog lights, Show Chrome LED Fender Signals, LED Signature Light, Tric LED Afterburnerz, MotoHorn 2.0

    Suspension: Wilbers Front and Rear Shocks, BajaRon Sway Bar, Vredestein Quatrac Front and Rear Tires

    Comfort: Blue Ridge Windshield, Corbin Dual Touring Saddle, Ultimate Floorboards, OEM Passenger Backrest with Rear Shelf, OEM Passenger Floorboards Modified with High Risers from Pierre

    Tackform Center Mount Phone Holder w/ rapid charging USB-C.
    2020 F3 , Black

  10. #10
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Bummer to read your Spyder required a new frame. Not sure of the severity or specific areas that took the impact loads and transferred them into the frame. If the damage involved the front of the machine, very possibly, unless all suspension arms were replaced, possibly one was reinstalled and remains bent.

    Then again, all could be excellent, and simply some chassis and suspension adjustments are needed.
    If you are not set up to accomplish chassis inspection of camber and toe, probably best to let someone well versed on the subject get you sorted out.

    BajaRon has replied a couple times and it seems you still have questions regarding some of his wording / description. No doubt he will clear up any confusion you have.

    If you were closer to me, I would gladly get out the tools and equipment to check camber and then laser align it. All the best in your quest.

    Quote Originally Posted by CloverHillCrawler View Post
    Sorry about the delay in my response been a busy week this week.


    Ron, thanks for your reply and willing to share your knowledge on the subject it has enlightened me a great bit but also left me a bit confused about lean angle.

    I guess that is what I am seeing when I am watching someone else have the wheels lean inward from the top when they are hitting dips.

    But I didn't get the chance to see on a corner so I guess that would mean both front wheels would lean right on right turns and vice versa?


    PMK, I was planning on getting some M2's and putting them on myself when spring came around and I had some money saved up but I think a trip to Marcus or Ron may be in order to get everything inspected and "straightened out" (sorry could help the pun on that one).

    Unfortunately I had an accident just a couple of months after getting my F3 and it was reframed so it wouldn't surprise me if something "additional" will have to be done to get it right.

    Funny thing though is that it drives straight and handles well with the mix of quatrac's and ron's sway bar so I can't figure where the excessive wear is coming from unless I am really pushing this thing too hard on the mountain and valley roads around here.

    The only real problem I have had is 2 up and bottoming out on the back tire with the wife onboard.

    With as much fun as the tail of the dragon was for a social experience it didn't really live up to the hype for me for driving after being on some of the very narrow and rough roads in the mountains around Md. and Pa..

  11. #11
    Very Active Member CloverHillCrawler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    757
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    I guess to make for a short answer when inferring to lean are we talking about the Wheels or the Chassis of the machine?

    2020 F3 SE6

    Safety and Lighting: LED Headlight upgrade, IPS LED Fog lights, Show Chrome LED Fender Signals, LED Signature Light, Tric LED Afterburnerz, MotoHorn 2.0

    Suspension: Wilbers Front and Rear Shocks, BajaRon Sway Bar, Vredestein Quatrac Front and Rear Tires

    Comfort: Blue Ridge Windshield, Corbin Dual Touring Saddle, Ultimate Floorboards, OEM Passenger Backrest with Rear Shelf, OEM Passenger Floorboards Modified with High Risers from Pierre

    Tackform Center Mount Phone Holder w/ rapid charging USB-C.
    2020 F3 , Black

  12. #12
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CloverHillCrawler View Post
    I guess to make for a short answer when inferring to lean are we talking about the Wheels or the Chassis of the machine?
    Probably best if BajaRon replies and explains his replies for you since he posted about lean and more.

  13. #13
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rednaxs60 View Post
    PMK may chime in here as well after my post. The Spyder are tuned for the average rider say some 200 pounds, height say 6'. This all comes into the calculations of centre of gravity and the likes. The OEM suspension suits a generic rider and performance profile.

    There are a few forum threads regarding suspension upgrade in this forum.

    If you are bottoming out with the OEM rear suspension and do not have an air ride assist, you need to increase the spring rate. I would suggest in the 500 to 600 lb/in range. M2 used a spring rate of 525 lb/in for the rear shock for my 2014 RTL. I have changed the rear shock spring to a 600 lb/in spring rate, may go back to the 525 lb/in spring rate - have the air ride assist.

    The tire wear may be from an alignment, may not. It can be from the shocks not supporting the weight of the Spyder, rider(s) and luggage. The OEM front shocks are very light for some rider profiles, and this changes the front suspension geometry.

    I notice from your picture that you have a lot of roll/lean in corners. The more weight that is added to the Spyder from rider and luggage, the centre of gravity will move up and this increases the roll/lean of the Spyder.

    The only way to mitigate this is to increase the front shock spring rate. A beefier sway bar will assist as well, but a sway bar is only in use in a corner. It does not provide any support for the front of the Spyder. It should be considered an assist to the shock for roll/lean reduction.

    I have M2 shocks all round. The front shocks came with a 250 lb/in shock spring, better than the OEM front shock, but still did not provide enough roll/lean reduction that I was/am looking for. Replaced the M2 shock spring with a 300 lb/in shock spring, much better for solo riding, but not quite for two up.

    Did 17,000 Kms with the 300 lb/in front shock springs installed at the factory rebound settings and the ride was quite good, but the roll/lean of the Spyder was still not quite right. The rear shock spring rate of 600 lb/in was sometimes a little harsh during the trip and we were towing a trailer.

    Will be changing he shock spring to a 350 lb/in spring rate before next season. I am presently approximately 240 lbs with riding gear, my lady - impolite to discuss this, but between the two of us, two up riding is my focus for suspension setup. The Spyder should do more work than the rider(s).

    You can order a set of shocks and accept the shock manufacturers recommendation, or have the shock manufacturer install shock springs that are heavier than per its recommendation. I mention this because the aftermarket shock manufacturers shock spring determination is based on a range of rider profiles, in other words a shock spring rate of say 250 lb/in may be suitable for riders in the 200 to 250 lb range. This is predicated on the performance profile as well.

    The road clearance distance is another consideration for tire wear and ride performance.

    You should be able to install the front shocks, adjust the preload for static road clearance as per the OEM factory road clearance with a preload of approximately 1 cm, or you can set the preload a bit more to get an OEM road clearance with yourself on the Spyder. Get a shock that has rebound damping as a minimum and you can dial in the ride quality, the preload adjustment is not to compensate for an improper shock spring rate selection.

    There is not a lot of information available for a Spyder rider to base suspension decisions on.

    Just my thoughts and $0.02 worth regarding the Spyder suspension. Not an expert. but think that the Spyder should do more work than I when I am riding it.

    Good luck.
    Rednaxs60, CloverHillCrawler did ask the questions specifically towards BajaRon, plus the proximity of BajaRons shop vs my South Florida location allows me to let BajaRon offer up his replies and solution, followed by the chance of accomplishing the work. In addition, my experiences with Marcus at M2 have not been as cheery as others that post here, so not planning to travel down that path.

    I am curious though, to see BajaRons recommended best methods at various price points, to contend will less than ideal handling Spyders with heavier riders. I know what I accomplished on my friends machine, and he is extremely pleased with the results. Simply want to compare if possible. Should not be a trade secret since some BajaRon items were installed.

  14. #14
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Greeneville, TN
    Posts
    13,519
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CloverHillCrawler View Post
    I guess to make for a short answer when inferring to lean are we talking about the Wheels or the Chassis of the machine?
    Lean angle is referring to the relationship between the suspension and the body of the Spyder. As the chassis of the Spyder leans to the outside in a turn, the front suspension articulates. This change in relationship between the body and the suspension alters the front end alignment. Managing the amount of lean keeps the alignment closer to ideal.

    You look like a big guy. That, plus riding two up, will increase the lean you experience in turns. It's just a matter of physics.

    Do you have the original BajaRon bar? Or the 3-Piece version? For you, the 3-Piece would be a better fit.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 10-26-2022 at 07:42 AM.
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

    Only SLOW people have to leave on time...





  15. #15
    Very Active Member CloverHillCrawler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    757
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    I have the original one and was considering the 3 piece and thought I may be able to get by without it.


    But I guess my tires have locked that choice in on a upgrade.
    Thank you for taking the time for the replies I am just trying to figure out how much I need to put aside before spring comes around.

    Looks like I will need a lil bit extra for that 3 piece.
    Last edited by CloverHillCrawler; 10-26-2022 at 04:21 PM.

    2020 F3 SE6

    Safety and Lighting: LED Headlight upgrade, IPS LED Fog lights, Show Chrome LED Fender Signals, LED Signature Light, Tric LED Afterburnerz, MotoHorn 2.0

    Suspension: Wilbers Front and Rear Shocks, BajaRon Sway Bar, Vredestein Quatrac Front and Rear Tires

    Comfort: Blue Ridge Windshield, Corbin Dual Touring Saddle, Ultimate Floorboards, OEM Passenger Backrest with Rear Shelf, OEM Passenger Floorboards Modified with High Risers from Pierre

    Tackform Center Mount Phone Holder w/ rapid charging USB-C.
    2020 F3 , Black

  16. #16
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Greeneville, TN
    Posts
    13,519
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    It's not that the original bar won't do you a good job. It's just with your parameters and the way you like to ride. The 3-piece would give you a fair amount of improvement.

    Give me a call after 10 am EST tomorrow and we can discuss it. 423-609-7588.
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

    Only SLOW people have to leave on time...





  17. #17
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    It's not that the original bar won't do you a good job. It's just with your parameters and the way you like to ride. The 3-piece would give you a fair amount of improvement.

    Give me a call after 10 am EST tomorrow and we can discuss it. 423-609-7588.
    BajaRon, I have recommended your swaybars to others and installed them also.
    I realize the three piece style swaybar is your latest offering.
    With this new style being released, you have several times suggested it will be better than the earlier style one piece bent type swaybar for heavier riders.

    With that, is this new style swaybar actually firmer / stiffer in rate? I realize the modular end arms will not flex, making all movement transmitted into the torsion reaction of the steel bar.
    Do you have performance graphs or similar, or even anything with data that compares the two.
    I ask out of curiosity, since lighter riders have found even the original swaybar to induce harshness over single front wheel bumps compared to the softer oem swaybar.

  18. #18
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CloverHillCrawler View Post
    I have the original one and was considering the 3 piece and thought I may be able to get by without it.


    But I guess my tires have locked that choice in on a upgrade.
    Thank you for taking the time for the replies I am just trying to figure out how much I need to put aside before spring comes around.

    Looks like I will need a lil bit extra for that 3 piece.

    Since you have mentioned plans to purchase the M2 brand of shocks, and since M2 had previously stated they increase wheel travel compared to stock and other aftermarket shocks, researching this extended wheel travel may be important factor to contend with for you. I believe the increase in travel is accomplished by allowing the wheels to extend further, and in your situation, this may increase the lean angle BajaRon suggested decreasing.

  19. #19
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Greeneville, TN
    Posts
    13,519
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    BajaRon, I have recommended your swaybars to others and installed them also.
    I realize the three piece style swaybar is your latest offering.
    With this new style being released, you have several times suggested it will be better than the earlier style one piece bent type swaybar for heavier riders.

    With that, is this new style swaybar actually firmer / stiffer in rate? I realize the modular end arms will not flex, making all movement transmitted into the torsion reaction of the steel bar.
    Do you have performance graphs or similar, or even anything with data that compares the two.
    I ask out of curiosity, since lighter riders have found even the original swaybar to induce harshness over single front wheel bumps compared to the softer oem swaybar.
    The new 3-Piece bar is not a larger or stiffer bar. We found that by replacing the spring steel arm portion of the bar with a rigid billet aluminum piece, the bar assembly became more efficient. We did not want to make a stiffer bar because the sway bar can be too stiff.

    The cross member (straight) portion of the bar is what does all the work. The arms and end links simply transfer that energy to the suspension. If the arms and or end links can flex, stretch or compress, some of this energy is absorbed. By improving efficiency with the rigid billet aluminum arms, the new bar assembly works pretty much the same as the original BajaRon bar for a light or conservative rider. Giving this rider no real advantage. But as weight (centrifugal force) increases, the 3-Piece improvement becomes ever more noticeable. Making it a definite upgrade for a heavy, aggressive or 2-up riders.

    As far as stiffness for a single wheel bump. It is true that a heavier sway bar can add some under certain circumstances. But typically, to notice a difference between the stock bar and either of the BajaRon bars. It should only be noticeable with large bumps. In most cases, the shock/spring system is more responsible for ride stiffness than is the sway bar.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 10-27-2022 at 11:08 AM.
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

    Only SLOW people have to leave on time...





  20. #20
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    4,301
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    The new 3-Piece bar is not a larger or stiffer bar. We found that by replacing the spring steel arm portion of the bar with a rigid billet aluminum piece, the bar assembly became more efficient. We did not want to make a stiffer bar because the sway bar can be too stiff.

    The cross member (straight) portion of the bar is what does all the work. The arms and end links simply transfer that energy to the suspension. If the arms and or end links can flex, stretch or compress, some of this energy is absorbed. By improving efficiency with the rigid billet aluminum arms, the new bar assembly works pretty much the same as the original BajaRon bar for a light or conservative rider. Giving this rider no real advantage. But as weight (centrifugal force) increases, the 3-Piece improvement becomes ever more noticeable. Making it a definite upgrade for a heavy, aggressive or 2-up riders.

    As far as stiffness for a single wheel bump. It is true that a heavier sway bar can add some under certain circumstances. But typically, to notice a difference between the stock bar and either of the BajaRon bars. It should only be noticeable with large bumps. In most cases, the shock/spring system is more responsible for ride stiffness than is the sway bar.
    By the sound of your reply, comparing the early one piece swaybar, against the later three piece swaybar, for the same model Spyder, if bench tested, utilizing the entire bar including the billet aluminum arms of the three piece bar, the measured torque required to displace the arms an identical number of degrees, would be the same for the early vs the new swaybar.
    Granted, the three piece swaybar has a more direct input to twist the bar, and with that, I would expect the stiffness to be greater for the same number of degrees twisted.

  21. #21
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Greeneville, TN
    Posts
    13,519
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    By the sound of your reply, comparing the early one piece swaybar, against the later three piece swaybar, for the same model Spyder, if bench tested, utilizing the entire bar including the billet aluminum arms of the three piece bar, the measured torque required to displace the arms an identical number of degrees, would be the same for the early vs the new swaybar.
    Granted, the three piece swaybar has a more direct input to twist the bar, and with that, I would expect the stiffness to be greater for the same number of degrees twisted.
    I am sure we are boring many with this discussion. (Sorry folks)

    There is a difference in the amount of deflection between these 2 designs, depending on the amount of force. Though this difference is not immediate, nor is it linier once it begins.

    Inputting force at the point where the end links attach to the arms (which is what happens in the real world). The amount of deflection at lower inputs will be identical or virtually identical for both bars. However, the amount of deflection (measured at the connection points) will begin to vary at a exponential rate as input force increases.

    This is because, as rigid as they are, the spring steel arms do flex. The billet aluminum arms do not.

    We are not talking inches or any great visual amount. But a relatively small amount of change in deflection at the sway bar makes a great deal of difference in handling on the Spyder suspension.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 10-27-2022 at 01:01 PM.
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

    Only SLOW people have to leave on time...





  22. #22
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Central VERMONT
    Posts
    20,272
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I am sure we are boring many with this discussion. (Sorry folks)

    There is a difference in the amount of deflection between these 2 designs, depending on the amount of force. Though this difference is not immediate, nor is it linier once it begins.

    Inputting force at the point where the end links attach to the arms (which is what happens in the real world). The amount of deflection at lower inputs will be identical or virtually identical for both bars. However, the amount of deflection (measured at the connection points) will begin to vary at a exponential rate as input force increases.

    This is because, as rigid as they are, the spring steel arms do flex. The billet aluminum arms do not.

    We are not talking inches or any great visual amount. But a relatively small amount of change in deflection at the sway bar makes a great deal of difference in handling on the Spyder suspension.
    Well not exactly Boring ...... however since the Spyders are not blessed with " race car quality " suspensions to begin - - I don't care how much you tinker with it ... the improvement will be marginal at best .... JMHO .... Mike

  23. #23
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Greeneville, TN
    Posts
    13,519
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    Well not exactly Boring ...... however since the Spyders are not blessed with " race car quality " suspensions to begin - - I don't care how much you tinker with it ... the improvement will be marginal at best .... JMHO .... Mike
    I don't remember Mike. Do you have an upgraded swaybar on your Spyder?
    Shop Ph: 423-609-7588 (M-F, 8-5, Eastern Time)

    Only SLOW people have to leave on time...





Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •