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  1. #1
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    Default Need Additional stopping power for when towing? Ideas?

    When towing our Lees-Ure Lite trailer for a camping trip, I figure our total loaded weight riding 2-up with gear and fluids runs about 1850#. I'd like to increase the rig's stopping power for safety reasons and figure I have two possible options; upgrade the Spyder's brakes or add brakes to the trailer. Or both.

    1. How can I measurably increase the braking power of the Spyder?

    2. Is there a way to add brakes to the trailer, which has 8" wheels? The smallest I've found are for 10" wheels.
    Last edited by UtahPete; 08-18-2022 at 10:02 AM.
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    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    When towing our Lees-Ure Lite trailer for a camping trip, I figure our total loaded weight riding 2-up with gear and fluids runs about 1850#. I'd like to increase the rig's stopping power for safety reasons and figure I have two possible options; upgrade the Spyder's brakes or add brakes to the trailer. Or both.

    1. How can I measurably increase the braking power of the Spyder?

    2. Is there a way to add brakes to the trailer, which has 9" wheels? The smallest I've found are for 10" wheels.
    Well I have heard that the Rotor's Ron sells along with His EBC Pads work better than stock ..... however I think you'll brakes on your trailer ..... JMHO .... good luck .... Mike

  3. #3
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    I'd do the ECB Rotors & Pads anyway, AND run electric brakes on the Trailer!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Aawen View Post
    I'd do the ECB Rotors & Pads anyway, AND run electric brakes on the Trailer!
    You sure do like getting me to spend my money!

    I'm inclined to agree with doing both. Any idea how much more effective the EBC pads & rotors are over stock?

    By the way, the ECU flash and cat delete result in quite a bit more usable power AND fuel economy. The worst i got towing on our Yellowstone trip was 33mpg! Best was 35mpg. Non-towing riding 2-up around the park was 45-48mpg!
    Last edited by UtahPete; 08-18-2022 at 10:03 AM.
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    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Couple of considerations.

    Spyder brakes can be improved with a proper flush and bleed with high end brake fluid. Not saying you will increase the mechanical friction properties of the brake materials, rather done correctly, the brake feel and inability to fade the fluid is greatly improved.

    If you do find and install electric trailer brakes, be aware of how those brakes tie into the Spyders electrical system. It may be acceptable to run the sense circuit via the Spyders trailer harness, but the actuator circuit may need its own dedicated wiring and circuit protection.

    If possible avoid inertia brakes based on how the Spyder may auto downshift.

    My own personal concern would be somewhat less about braking, but more focused on the integrity of the Spyders hitch. Some hitches have experienced failures based on poor designs, while others tend to hold up better. Others still simply fatigue and fail. In simple terms, if you do pull the trailer exceeding the recommended weights, consider more frequent and thorough inspections to the hitch itself. Never fun trying to stop, even with great brakes, a disconnected trailer in a car or truck, can only imagine the Spyder would be even more exciting in that situation.
    Last edited by PMK; 08-19-2022 at 02:38 AM.

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    PMK, all good points.

    It's a BRP hitch. Tongue weight isn't excessive; about 45#. I'm estimating that 2 riders and luggage on the bike itself weigh about 450#. I should weigh the loaded trailer, but I'm estimating 400-450# there. So, total with 1050# for Spyder = 1950#

    The trailer itself has a solar panel with lithium battery, 1 gallon of water, food and bedding, clothing, etc.

    Unless 2dogs can come up with a better solution, I'm looking at about $500-600 for new back-plate, hubs, brakes and electric brake controller. Maybe more if i need bigger wheels, which in itself would create issues with the way the top unfolds and sits on the ground. I may be better off trying to lose carried weight but i don't see where that could be.

    So, I'm focusing for now on a Spyder braking system upgrade, starting with a flush!
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    The smallest trailer brakes I have seen were 7". Not sure if they would work on your 9" wheels. If they do, it would be tight. If you could upgrade to 10" or 12" wheels, it would be great.

    Before you look into brakes for the trailer, be aware that the axle on the trailer needs to be equipped for them. There should be a square flange at the end of the axle for the brake backing plate to bolt to. One could be added, if necessary, but placement is critical.

    You will also need a controller for those brakes. A proportional controller is great, but be sure you DON'T get one that is time-based. They apply power gradually up to the maximum that you have set. I prefer not to have brakes ... eventually, I want them NOW. My controller of choice is Tekonsha P3. Not cheap, but there is a lot at stake, get quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve W. View Post
    The smallest trailer brakes I have seen were 7". Not sure if they would work on your 9" wheels. If they do, it would be tight. If you could upgrade to 10" or 12" wheels, it would be great.

    Before you look into brakes for the trailer, be aware that the axle on the trailer needs to be equipped for them. There should be a square flange at the end of the axle for the brake backing plate to bolt to. One could be added, if necessary, but placement is critical.

    You will also need a controller for those brakes. A proportional controller is great, but be sure you DON'T get one that is time-based. They apply power gradually up to the maximum that you have set. I prefer not to have brakes ... eventually, I want them NOW. My controller of choice is Tekonsha P3. Not cheap, but there is a lot at stake, get quality.

    .
    I agree with all your comments, including a quality proportional brake controller. None of them are designed to be weatherproof, though, so there's that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    You sure do like getting me to spend my money!

    I'm inclined to agree with doing both. Any idea how much more effective the ECB pads & rotors are over stock?

    By the way, the ECU flash and cat delete result in quite a bit more usable power AND fuel economy. The worst i got towing on our Yellowstone trip was 33mpg! Best was 35mpg. Non-towing riding 2-up around the park was 45-48mpg!
    EBC states that their rotors will give a 20% increase in stopping power. But that is a generic assessment across a good number of vehicles. It could be higher for the Spyder as the stock rotors may nut be as good as say a crotch rocket. I don't know. But we have many customers say they notice a good improvement with the upgrade. We know that the Sintered brake pads increase longevity and braking efficiency. Though I do not have any quantifiable data on this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    I agree with all your comments, including a quality proportional brake controller. None of them are designed to be weatherproof, though, so there's that!
    I have never heard of a " weather-proof or waterproof " braking system .... Not even for $ 1,000,000 + race cars.... IMHO there is NO need for this ...... Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    EBC states that their rotors will give a 20% increase in stopping power. But that is a generic assessment across a good number of vehicles. It could be higher for the Spyder as the stock rotors may nut be as good as say a crotch rocket. I don't know. But we have many customers say they notice a good improvement with the upgrade. We know that the Sintered brake pads increase longevity and braking efficiency. Though I do not have any quantifiable data on this.
    I think this is where i should start. Do you have a link to them on your website or eBay page? 2014 RT
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    "So you're looking at replacing the backing plate, hub, etc and maybe going to larger wheels and tires because there's nothing that you've found will work on the 8" LL wheels?
    PS let's shift this conversation over to my other thread https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...n-towing-Ideas"

    If I recall the parts are all for 8" wheels. You'll have to check for sure. However, you have to start from the hub and work your way out from there with all the correct parts. If you go with 9" I believe you'll also have to get new axles and hangers. The 8" are on torsion axles, not a straight axle. Complete different animal.
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 07-18-2023 at 04:01 AM. Reason: .

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    I can't find anything for smaller than 10" wheels at eTrailer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    I have never heard of a " weather-proof or waterproof " braking system ....
    Sit down, class, school is now in session.

    The following are clickable links.

    Tekonsha Prodigy RF

    Autowbrake

    There might be more, but those two popped up rather quickly.

    I have no personal experience with either one, but I have talked to a couple users that have the Tekonsha system and like it.

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    Very Active Member K80Shooter's Avatar
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    The Tekonsha Prodigy P3 is a great controller. Thats all I use in my personal vehicle as well as what we installed in all of our company trucks.

    This controller could be installed either in the frunk or trunk if one wanted something waterproof. Once you have it installed and set you really wouldn't need to mess with it.

    https://www.tekonsha.com/product/901...l-proportional
    Last edited by K80Shooter; 08-18-2022 at 03:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by K80Shooter View Post
    The Tekonsha Prodigy P3 is a great controller. Thats all I use in my personal vehicle as well as what we installed in all of our company trucks.

    This controller could be installed either in the frunk or trunk if one wanted something waterproof. Once you have it installed and set you really wouldn't need to mess with it.

    https://www.tekonsha.com/product/901...l-proportional
    I agree. That's what we had in our Xterra tow vehicle before getting the GMC truck with integrated trailer braking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    I have never heard of a " weather-proof or waterproof " braking system .... Not even for $ 1,000,000 + race cars.... IMHO there is NO need for this ...... Mike
    I was talking about the brake controller, which is usually in the cab of a vehicle, not out in the open on a motorcycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    I think this is where i should start. Do you have a link to them on your website or eBay page? 2014 RT
    No website yet. And don't buy on eBay. It is the most expensive way to get anything from me. Just call us tomorrow (8-5, M-F EST) at 423-609-7588 and order over the phone. Or, email at fyredad@hotmail.com and we'll get you set up.
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  20. #20
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    PMK, all good points.

    It's a BRP hitch. Tongue weight isn't excessive; about 45#. I'm estimating that 2 riders and luggage on the bike itself weigh about 450#. I should weigh the loaded trailer, but I'm estimating 400-450# there. So, total with 1050# for Spyder = 1950#

    The trailer itself has a solar panel with lithium battery, 1 gallon of water, food and bedding, clothing, etc.

    Unless 2dogs can come up with a better solution, I'm looking at about $500-600 for new back-plate, hubs, brakes and electric brake controller. Maybe more if i need bigger wheels, which in itself would create issues with the way the top unfolds and sits on the ground. I may be better off trying to lose carried weight but i don't see where that could be.

    So, I'm focusing for now on a Spyder braking system upgrade, starting with a flush!
    In my opinion, good choice on the hitch you chose.
    Regarding the tongue weight you mentioned, while only 5 pounds over the designed and published rating, consider even more than just tongue weight. I am not going to mention correctly loading the trailer, there is plenty of videos showing why you must ensure adequate tongue weight.

    In simple terms, the design of the Spyders trailer hitch is less than ideal, even enters into kind of poorly decided upon. Even aftermarket hitches suffer the same bad design. Yes, this relates to tongue weight limits. The Spyders hitch, when installed, becomes part of the rear suspension. The hitch is not isolated from the rear wheels movement over bumps. Therefore, every, or nearly every road imperfection or item rolled over is felt by the trailer after that force is transferred through the hitch. Unfortunately, the forces and loads induced can peak at a quite large amount. That 40 pound tongue weight design limit could easily see actual load of over 500 pounds, maybe even close to 1000 pounds depending on what the tire feels. Add to this, the hitch ball is well aft of the axle, further increasing the vertical linear movement of axle vs hitch ball. So a 10g load induced by a bump into the wheel assembly and axle is even greater load at the hitch ball.

    For comparison, you use a carpenters hammer to drive a nail into lumber, but it is unlikely you would drive that same nail with a 5 pound sledge hammer. The added tongue weight is towards the sledge hammer effect.

    It is kind of the same for folks that run those carrier basket setups. Loaded light they work, add weight and those similar loads I mentioned happen, plus there is bending moments and side load moments not experienced by pulling a trailer.

    Some have attempted to design and build a frame mounted hitch for the Spyder. This would allow the rear wheel freedom of movement when needed to react while rolling. Unfortunately, there are no production hitches of this design I am aware of.

    As time permits, when the weather cools a bit, I plan to modify our RT622 trailer to lessen considerably the induced forces I mentioned. You might consider researching if you can purchase a suspension style trailer tongue for your trailer. Possibly it already has that feature. If so awesome.

    Regarding your quest for trailer brakes, no doubt noble and viable. Myself, I would be ok with oem parts if not worn. Regarding the brake fluid though, shop wisely and pay more for a brake fluid deemed compatible, having a higher wet boiling point than others.

    I do not suggest upgrading to DOT 5.1 unless you are set up to flush and bleed at least 3 times per year. The Motul RBF 600 is excellent brake fluid, but does suffer from a crystal like separation that fouls the master cylinder cup seals. Even other 5.1 fluids in other applications have done similar.

    Stick with DOT 4, but as mentioned, research wet boiling temp spec. Flush the Spyders brake system fully two times when initially swapping fluids. If you use a dealer to accomplish this task, you are pretty much at their hands as to what fluid they use. My guess is a lower cost product, purchased in bulk. Hopefully kept clean and not allowed to absorb moisture.

    When I worked for Flight Safety International, they had an advertising catch phrase.
    “The best safety device in any aircraft is a well trained crew”.
    Similar might be applicable when Spyder riding, hauling that trailer that exceeds Can Ams published limits.
    Last edited by PMK; 08-19-2022 at 03:21 AM.

  21. #21
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    We're focused now on getting the total weight down, as well as upgrading the bike's brakes. Thanks.
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